War with Russia

Author
Discussion

Mojocvh

16,837 posts

261 months

Tuesday 28th July 2015
quotequote all
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/indian-s...

Four Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighters from the Indian air force's 2 Sqn have begun their involvement in a UK-based exercise also involving Royal Air Force Eurofighter Typhoons.

The Indradanush IV manouevres commenced on 21 July from RAF Coningsby in Lincolnshire, following the arrival of the Indian aircraft four days earlier. The exercise is intended "to enhance mutual operational understanding between the two air forces," the former says.


scherzkeks

4,460 posts

133 months

Tuesday 28th July 2015
quotequote all
skyrover said:
He hates the "West"... if it wasn't Putin it would be someone else. Facts, reason and logic be damned.

It would be funny if it were not so tragic.
No, again, you misunderstand. I am here to laugh at you.

skyrover

12,668 posts

203 months

Tuesday 28th July 2015
quotequote all
scherzkeks said:
skyrover said:
He hates the "West"... if it wasn't Putin it would be someone else. Facts, reason and logic be damned.

It would be funny if it were not so tragic.
No, again, you misunderstand. I am here to laugh at you.
another constructive contribution, give yourself a pat on the back smile

... meanwhile back in the real world...

Ukraine, Poland and Lithuania have signed an agreement for a rapid reaction force framework in the face of continued Russian aggression. Presumably the memory of Soviet occupation hasn't been readily forgotten.

http://uatoday.tv/politics/joint-military-brigade-...

Meanwhile the fighting in East Ukraine is intensifying again and several OSCE observers have been injured.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-28/...

DMN

2,983 posts

138 months

Thursday 30th July 2015
quotequote all
Clearly what we need is a pointless show trial to show the western imperialists NATO that Mother Russia will not back down, oh wait heres one now:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33714481

Cobnapint

8,596 posts

150 months

Thursday 30th July 2015
quotequote all
DMN said:
Clearly what we need is a pointless show trial to show the western imperialists NATO that Mother Russia will not back down, oh wait heres one now:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33714481
Yet Putin won't entertain an investigation into the downing of MH17....

He's got a different set of principles for every day of the week, that c*nt.

skyrover

12,668 posts

203 months

Thursday 30th July 2015
quotequote all
Disgusting behavior from a so called "global leader"

It's also sad when Savchenko's lawyers feel they have to wear bullet proof vests on the way to court

http://24tv.ua/news/showNews.do?advokati_savchenko...

Edited by skyrover on Thursday 30th July 19:38

Cobnapint

8,596 posts

150 months

Thursday 30th July 2015
quotequote all
skyrover said:
Disgusting behavior from a so called "global leader"

It's also sad when Savchenko's lawyers feel they have to wear bullet proof vests on the way to court

http://24tv.ua/news/showNews.do?advokati_savchenko...
Yes, you never know when a 'Chechen assassin' is gonna drive by, so you can't be too careful eh. Especially if the cctv cameras are off for maintenance.

And while we're on that subject - it's all gone quiet over there on that one hasn't it. Have they paid the local vagabond off and sent him on his way with a pat on the back and a friendly "Great actink Comrade. Sankyou for your services to the motherlant".

Mojocvh

16,837 posts

261 months

Thursday 30th July 2015
quotequote all
Our "friends of the east" have gone rather silent indeed.........

QuantumTokoloshi

4,161 posts

216 months

Friday 31st July 2015
quotequote all
It is laugh out loud funny that Putin, (dictator, Bond villain, star of dodgy homo erotic photos opportunities) of all people, has become the supporter of democratic minority rights in Eastern Ukraine and of freedom of speech with Edward Snowden. Ironic does not begin to describe it.

The next thing, he will be saving lions from dentists in Zimbabawe.

Now they are bringing religion into it, can't be worse than the Neo-nazis I guess.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-30/moscow-mu...


QuantumTokoloshi

4,161 posts

216 months

Friday 31st July 2015
quotequote all
Octoposse said:
skyrover said:
So your argument against the Russians invading their neighbours and trampling over every international law and treaty they signed up to is "well look what the US and Israel did once upon a time"?
Not quite - it's more that the article you have linked to as "a very telling piece" is actually one sided propaganda, as far as I can tell linked to a group based in Washington. And very, very dangerous propaganda at that, in that it appears to argue (and I confess I have not been able to read it in detail due to real life imposing itself) that Russia is a violent irrational rogue state that can only be contained through force and the threat of force. It skates over certain facts inconvenient to the chosen narrative and willfully fails to apply Occam's razor.

In reality Russia and its political class act entirely predictably and rationally in defence of what they perceive as their own interests - and I would argue actually more predictably and rationally than corresponding governments in the West (that is a practical judgement, not a moral one). That makes Russia actually easier to deal with, not harder. I can and have certainly have predicted what Moscow will do in circumstances that 'we' bring about. OK, I am (now) by profession an analyst, but certainly not one whose specialist area is Russia, and consequently far less qualified than those (I hope) are employed by our governments.

Ergo, it isn't miscalculation that has brought us to this ststorm that is destroying lives in Ukraine, literally and metaphorically. Or at least I'd hope not - but then again, given the miscalculation on the scale that led to Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria, who knows?

skyrover said:
Did the Crimean subject really have a choice? The election was not free, nor fair and is not recognised as a result.
Yes and no. Was the process without flaws, meeting minimum standards? No. Do the majority of people in Crimea consider themselves Russian and wish to be Russian? Yes. Fixation on the flawed process seems to be a willful diversion in order to refuse to acknowledge the probable majority view in Crimea, and to refuse to engage with that will beyond advancing the principle that ‘international boundaries are inviolable' (cough, cough, Kosovo . . . ).

skyrover said:
... and to call Russian actions "reactive"?.... they were rolling tanks ad APC's across the Donbass before the West even knew what was going on. The BUK used to shoot down the airliner was brought in to nullify the Ukrainian air force.
Exactly so (first and last bits anyway). Early encounters are Ukrainian APCs turned back by unarmed villagers. There's a deal to be done before blood is spilt but it means recognising Russian sovereignty in Crimea ("time to face reality" as we told Belgrade re Kosovo), which would have made Putin look like Bismark and Peter the Great rolled into one. So, no deal. Conflict escalates, men, women, children die. Ukrainian advantage in the air is countered by Russian air defence systems - with tragic results.

This has got to stop, both to end the suffering now and to reduce the risk of escalation with a country with whom we actually have no inherent conflict of interest. And it's not going to end unless we are realistic about what Moscow can and cannot give in return, rather than blinding ourselves with polemic.
I meant to respond to this but got sidelined.

A well written piece, that provides a well balanced argument, but thus it makes you a Putin loving, Ukraine hating, Crimea hogging, vodka drinking, bear hugging, pinko communist. smile

Martin4x4

6,506 posts

131 months

Friday 31st July 2015
quotequote all
scherzkeks said:
No, again, you misunderstand. I am here to laugh at you.
Tragic


skyrover

12,668 posts

203 months

Friday 31st July 2015
quotequote all
An interview with the captured Russian officer "Starkov"

http://lugansk-news.com/captured-russian-officer-s...

Since he was captured, his family back in Russia have gone missing and can not be reached.

Cobnapint

8,596 posts

150 months

Friday 31st July 2015
quotequote all
skyrover said:
An interview with the captured Russian officer "Starkov"

http://lugansk-news.com/captured-russian-officer-s...

Since he was captured, his family back in Russia have gone missing and can not be reached.
They're probably just lost somewhere in E Ukraine.

Must run in the family.

MrBrightSi

2,912 posts

169 months

Friday 31st July 2015
quotequote all
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zssIFN2mso

Wonder if this is a repost.

Very damning evidence though.

I think the worst thing is that even Russians are narcissistic enough to constantly be attached to faceache.

skyrover

12,668 posts

203 months

Saturday 1st August 2015
quotequote all
Yes it was posted a while back.

Damning indeed.

The evidence of Russian military in Eastern Ukraine has become so overwhelming, the Putin apologists seem to have shifted to "look what the West/Israel has done, etc etc"

Meanwhile Russian's are fleeing Putin's paradise in droves


EskimoArapaho

5,135 posts

134 months

Saturday 1st August 2015
quotequote all
Tangent question on Putin's long-term plan... Does he get to run for just one more term again?

Has he changed the constitution or will he find another Medvedev-alike to swap chairs for a while?

Octoposse

2,152 posts

184 months

Saturday 1st August 2015
quotequote all
skyrover said:
. . . the Putin apologists seem to have shifted to "look what the West/Israel has done, etc etc" . . .
OK, as a 'Putin apologist' I'll bite!

You misrepresent the argument. The point about the West/Israel, etc, is that the new cold warriors l-u-r-v-e pointing at evidence of Moscow dis-information, cover stories, or use of force, and presenting it as evidence of Russia's unique rogue-statedom.

Examples of dis-information, false flag operations, cover stories, use of force, deliberate targetting of civilians stemming from, say, Washington, London, or Tel Aviv are dismissed as irrelevant whataboutery. But it's not irrelevant to the argument that Russia is somehow a 'rogue state'. The targetting of civilians and dismemberment of Serbia, poor old Colin Powell primed with a pack of lies to pass on to the UN, fifty years of Israeli targetting of women and children, Blair running interference for Israel and trying to delay a ceasefire in Lebanon, drone strikes, 'extraordinary rendition', etc, all dismissed because they don't fit the narrative that Moscow is uniquely untrustworthy and uniquely prone to operating outside the 'rules'.

There's an equal failure to engage with the irrefutable truth that by March 2014 Moscow had exactly what it wanted - Crimea - and was eager for a deal recognising that reality. It is therefore a very reasonable argument that the responsibility for all the bloodshed and unimagineable misery since lies primarily with those who didn't want a deal back then, who wanted Putin to pay a price.

And, undoubtedly, Putin, Moscow, Russia is paying a price. But it's one he has no choice but to pay as no conceivable government of Russia could surrender sovereignty over Crimea, or give the impression that it has abandoned ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine to their fate. That's the political reality in Putin's domestic constituency, and a political reality that is well understood in Washington. So I guess the bloodshed and misery will continue either until we need Russian cooperation over the next, as yet unforeseen, global crisis and drop Kiev like toxic waste, or the Russians replace Putin with someone more hardline. Happy days.

dudleybloke

19,717 posts

185 months

Saturday 1st August 2015
quotequote all
The RAF intercepted ten Ruskie aircraft yesterday.

Mojocvh

16,837 posts

261 months

Saturday 1st August 2015
quotequote all
Perhaps they are keeping this news quiet for a reason?

Blaster72

10,772 posts

196 months

Saturday 1st August 2015
quotequote all
Mojocvh said:
Perhaps they are keeping this news quiet for a reason?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/117...

It was all over the news yesterday at least in the UK