Saved by the System…
Discussion
Having read this a couple of weeks back and having never heard of the "proper" way to overtake I was curious and wanted to experiment.
Sat on an NSL A road yesterday I was sat behind the car in front who was sat behind a lorry. He hadn't been looking particularly keen to make any sort of move on the lorry, but if he'd been watching his mirrors he'd have seen I was.
The road opened up and presented a decent over taking spot. I indicated and half "sling shotted" out, about the same distance (as best it can be judged by the video) as the OP from said car in front, lifted off, gave a quick beep and buried the throttle (well, not really. Burying the throttle in a 1.6 Zafira doesn't help much!).
You can guess what came next...
Now, bear in mind that I've never beeped on an overtake before, and very rarely has anyone pulled out in front of me (and never where wasn't half-expecting it). It leads me to think that perhaps this "proper" beep and delay encourages the driver ahead to make a move too.
I think the OP has got it all wrong and he wasn't "saved by the system". Rather, he was "almost not saved by the system", the system being the thing that caused the driver ahead to pull out.
I'll stick to a quick mirror check, indicate and "sling shot" with my left hand covering the horn.
Sat on an NSL A road yesterday I was sat behind the car in front who was sat behind a lorry. He hadn't been looking particularly keen to make any sort of move on the lorry, but if he'd been watching his mirrors he'd have seen I was.
The road opened up and presented a decent over taking spot. I indicated and half "sling shotted" out, about the same distance (as best it can be judged by the video) as the OP from said car in front, lifted off, gave a quick beep and buried the throttle (well, not really. Burying the throttle in a 1.6 Zafira doesn't help much!).
You can guess what came next...
Now, bear in mind that I've never beeped on an overtake before, and very rarely has anyone pulled out in front of me (and never where wasn't half-expecting it). It leads me to think that perhaps this "proper" beep and delay encourages the driver ahead to make a move too.
I think the OP has got it all wrong and he wasn't "saved by the system". Rather, he was "almost not saved by the system", the system being the thing that caused the driver ahead to pull out.
I'll stick to a quick mirror check, indicate and "sling shot" with my left hand covering the horn.
It is yet another example of somebody posting a video of themself doing something that wasn't necessarily right/good, but feeling superior about it.
"Saved by the system"? Whatever.
Evaluating a situation before acting (which is basically what the very prescribed, simplified, rule-based to "system" is) is not particularly profound and is the correct way to live life, not just driving, anyway.
"Saved by the system"? Whatever.
Evaluating a situation before acting (which is basically what the very prescribed, simplified, rule-based to "system" is) is not particularly profound and is the correct way to live life, not just driving, anyway.
DHB07 said:
Having read this a couple of weeks back and having never heard of the "proper" way to overtake I was curious and wanted to experiment.
Sat on an NSL A road yesterday I was sat behind the car in front who was sat behind a lorry. He hadn't been looking particularly keen to make any sort of move on the lorry, but if he'd been watching his mirrors he'd have seen I was.
The road opened up and presented a decent over taking spot. I indicated and half "sling shotted" out, about the same distance (as best it can be judged by the video) as the OP from said car in front, lifted off, gave a quick beep and buried the throttle (well, not really. Burying the throttle in a 1.6 Zafira doesn't help much!).
You can guess what came next...
Now, bear in mind that I've never beeped on an overtake before, and very rarely has anyone pulled out in front of me (and never where wasn't half-expecting it). It leads me to think that perhaps this "proper" beep and delay encourages the driver ahead to make a move too.
I think the OP has got it all wrong and he wasn't "saved by the system". Rather, he was "almost not saved by the system", the system being the thing that caused the driver ahead to pull out.
I'll stick to a quick mirror check, indicate and "sling shot" with my left hand covering the horn.
Ummm... when did beep and delay become part of 'proper'? I know it's what the OP said he did, but it's not what I'd recognise as the 'proper' way to go about it. If you're going to signal some sort of "I am here" warning to those ahead of you (and I think someone suggested earlier in the thread that perhaps headlights would be better than horn) then presumably the idea is that you want them to persuaded that they're best off waiting until you're past, in which case I think you need to be closing on them, not lifting off and matching speed (bearing in mind that closing on them implies you are committed from further back). I'm not surprised that the driver you were looking to overtake pulled out in front.Sat on an NSL A road yesterday I was sat behind the car in front who was sat behind a lorry. He hadn't been looking particularly keen to make any sort of move on the lorry, but if he'd been watching his mirrors he'd have seen I was.
The road opened up and presented a decent over taking spot. I indicated and half "sling shotted" out, about the same distance (as best it can be judged by the video) as the OP from said car in front, lifted off, gave a quick beep and buried the throttle (well, not really. Burying the throttle in a 1.6 Zafira doesn't help much!).
You can guess what came next...
Now, bear in mind that I've never beeped on an overtake before, and very rarely has anyone pulled out in front of me (and never where wasn't half-expecting it). It leads me to think that perhaps this "proper" beep and delay encourages the driver ahead to make a move too.
I think the OP has got it all wrong and he wasn't "saved by the system". Rather, he was "almost not saved by the system", the system being the thing that caused the driver ahead to pull out.
I'll stick to a quick mirror check, indicate and "sling shot" with my left hand covering the horn.
Having said that, whatever it was the OP could have done differently, I'm not sure whether it should involve the word 'slingshot'. Slingshot sounds a lot like committing from your own side of the road, which isn't necessarily where all the information is available from.
Hi DHB07,
If you only do one small thing to develop your driving, even if merely out of curiousity, then watching Mark Kendrick's DVD or reading Roadcraft would be good!
DHB07 said:
Having read this a couple of weeks back and having never heard of the "proper" way to overtake I was curious and wanted to experiment.
Driving's hard enoough to discuss meaningfully online, but overtaking has got to be the hardest skill of all to discuss without being in-car. That said, having a look at Roadcraft or watching the Roadcraft DVD or Mark Kendrick's excellent DVD would be miles better than what some bloke on the internet said If you only do one small thing to develop your driving, even if merely out of curiousity, then watching Mark Kendrick's DVD or reading Roadcraft would be good! Guys, thanks for the words. I realise I didn't word it properly or explicitly enough, but when I say "experiment" I meant just that.
Not for one moment did I come here expecting to learn something or better my driving, or did I believe that the technique the OP discussed was actually "proper". Despite it being described this way, it seems like far too a blanket strategy for something so variable.
I also wasn't experimenting with the technique to see what it was like from a learning and improving perspective. I was experimenting to see how the other driver would react in a "reconstructed" situation. (NB. I do realise it's impossible to properly reconstruct any given situation on the road).
Not for one moment did I come here expecting to learn something or better my driving, or did I believe that the technique the OP discussed was actually "proper". Despite it being described this way, it seems like far too a blanket strategy for something so variable.
I also wasn't experimenting with the technique to see what it was like from a learning and improving perspective. I was experimenting to see how the other driver would react in a "reconstructed" situation. (NB. I do realise it's impossible to properly reconstruct any given situation on the road).
SK425 said:
I'm not surprised that the driver you were looking to overtake pulled out in front.
This was exactly my point! I'm not surprised either! I wasn't when I read the OP's account of what happened but wanted proof and so I took to the road to see what happens first hand. Assumptions were proved right and I reported back, to put the nail in the coffin, so to speak.DHB07 said:
This was exactly my point! I'm not surprised either! I wasn't when I read the OP's account of what happened but wanted proof and so I took to the road to see what happens first hand. Assumptions were proved right and I reported back, to put the nail in the coffin, so to speak.
I am very surprised by your experience. I will continue to use a warning before overtaking a vehicle which might itself overtake. Better a missed overtake than the first 'target' moving out when you are alongside.waremark said:
I am very surprised by your experience. I will continue to use a warning before overtaking a vehicle which might itself overtake. Better a missed overtake than the first 'target' moving out when you are alongside.
What was interesting about this was that the first target had shown very little interest in wanting to make a move. Certainly no body language. It was as if the beep, which I think is very uncommon, encouraged him or suggested to him that I wanted him to go too, rather than that I was there and coming past.I imagine that if I'd merely indicated out (as per the norm) then this wouldn't have happened. I'm also a little dubious as to what a quick flash would do, it often (though officially not) being used as a sign to go.
A sustained full beam (only during the day and good light) or no lights to sustained dipped headlights would probably be the least provocative action. Other than the standard indicator.
DHB07 said:
waremark said:
I am very surprised by your experience. I will continue to use a warning before overtaking a vehicle which might itself overtake. Better a missed overtake than the first 'target' moving out when you are alongside.
What was interesting about this was that the first target had shown very little interest in wanting to make a move. Certainly no body language. It was as if the beep, which I think is very uncommon, encouraged him or suggested to him that I wanted him to go too, rather than that I was there and coming past.I imagine that if I'd merely indicated out (as per the norm) then this wouldn't have happened. I'm also a little dubious as to what a quick flash would do, it often (though officially not) being used as a sign to go.
A sustained full beam (only during the day and good light) or no lights to sustained dipped headlights would probably be the least provocative action. Other than the standard indicator.
I use sustained full beam if communicating to a heavy which may be rather noise, or to more than one vehicle. For one vehicle I do generally give a beep, unless I am very confident they know I am there, or the road is generously wide.
7mike said:
I reckon he saw you pull out, decided that if you were going to go, so was he. Just like the ones who follow like sheep; they need someone else to do the thinking for them.
I would say the same thing happens to me in 1 in 10 of my overtakes. I don't let it bother me, it's human (sheep) nature.I indicate but that's to tell traffic behind me. If the car(s) you're over taking care to check their mirror, glance over their shoulder pre manoeuvre they'd see you, if they don't, they won't and you have trouble regardless. A horn beep.. Well maybe as it plays to a different sense, but I don't.
I work on the principle that they might pull out regardless, all the beeping and flashing can at best only reduce the chance of someone pulling out on you, it will never prevent it.
I work on the principle that they might pull out regardless, all the beeping and flashing can at best only reduce the chance of someone pulling out on you, it will never prevent it.
If it's any help, I wrote a piece on overtaking back in the day...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Back in the day Reg said:
If there is one skill that is misunderstood, badly practised and which frightens and intimidates drivers more than anything else, it's overtaking.
This doesn't have to be the case - there's no big mystery to overtaking, and when it's carried out correctly, it's no more dangerous than any other manoeuvre that we carry out whilst driving. For some reason, however, the general motoring public (bless 'em) seem to view overtaking as a potentially disastrous move only carried out by idiotic johnny-boy-racers. You only have to see the reactions I sometimes get from other drivers when I've carried out perfectly safe overtakes, to realise how many people have an unnecessary aversion to overtaking. If I had a pound for every time someone had suggested a method for putting vinegar on my chips after an overtake, I wouldn't be driving around in an 8 year-old car. And don't they know the bottle works the other way up?
This "overtakaphobia" seems to be a particularly English problem too. I've driven in France, Italy, and extensively in Scotland where I've found the locals far more inclined to assist you in overtaking by moving nearside or giving a helpful indicator when it's safe to go.
I'm of the opinion that this particular phobia stems from two sources - the unnecessarily over-pressed "speed kills" message, and the fact that no-one is ever taught how to overtake properly (unless they take further driver training, and unfortunately, that's only a very small percentage of drivers at the moment).
Now, I can't do much about the first point, other than to say that excessive speed is only a small factor in accident causes, particularly when compared with driver error, but I'm afraid I'm powerless to change the government's stance on speeding, so I can't help there.
What I can do, however, is give you a few pointers on how to overtake safely and efficiently, with maximum control and minimum fuss. So here goes...
The Following Position
"Oh no Reg - not that old chestnut again."
Bear with me - I know the following position is a much discussed topic, but it's a vital element in safe overtaking, and it's where the majority of overtakes start from. There are two main reasons for this - it's far enough back to give you a good view of the road ahead, and it's far enough forward to allow you to quickly move into the overtake if it's on.
If you sit two seconds behind the car in front (slightly more if it's a larger vehicle), then it won't be filling too much of your field of vision - you'll still have a reasonably good view of the road in front of that car. If you move your car sideways at the appropriate times, you can vastly improve your view of the road ahead, but the key is knowing when and where to move your car.
How many times have you seen drivers looking for an overtake by moving their head to the right to improve their view? In most cars, you can only really move your head by a maximum of about a foot, so the improvement in view by moving a foot to the right is fairly minuscule. It's much better practise to move the whole car, as the distance you can potentially move the car sideways is much greater and so, subsequently, is the improvement in your view.
So, where should you be moving to? That depends entirely on what the road is doing.
Lets start with a straight piece of road, as that's the easiest. Move your car towards the centre line whilst in your following position, and look into the distance. If it's safe to do so, you can then move your car across the centre-lines, over towards the offside of the road. This offside move is very alien to some people, but believe me, it's by far the best way to see if the road ahead is clear. The amount of sideways movement can vary from having your offside wheels on the white line, to straddling the white line, to moving completely over to the offside of the road, dependent on the available view. Don't get sucked into the old "right and wrong side of the road" stuff - unless white lines dictate otherwise, it's perfectly acceptable to use the full width of the road if it's safe to do so.
The most common mistake people make when moving offside for a look is this...
They look with their right foot.
To expand on that, people confuse the move offside with the start of an overtake, and, even if they know that they're just trying to improve their view, they accompany the offside move with a slight inadvertent squeeze on the accelerator. They look with their right foot. This is a problem if the overtake isn't on, because when they move back to the nearside, the inevitable result of looking with your right foot is that you close up your following position to less than 2 seconds. Do this several times, and without realising it, you can end up very intimately involved with the car in front, if you get my meaning.
So the sideways move should be just that - a sideways move for a look, and not accompanied with a forwards move.
On a left hand bend, the series of moves required to obtain the optimum view start with a move to the nearside to obtain a view of the bend down the left-hand side of the car in front. Once you've got that nearside view, it can be improved as you get closer to the corner, by moving the car offside. There's no prescriptive distance that you should move offside - just move enough to improve that view down the left-hand side of the car, without going so far that you end up blocking it.
I've just read that back, and it sounds complicated, so I'll try to simplify it...
Approaching the corner, move nearside and look nearside. As you get into the corner, move offside, but keep looking nearside.
There - that's better!
As you round the bend, you'll get a brief view of the road ahead as it straightens up, and if it appears clear, this view can then be confirmed with a move further offside, the outcome of which will finalise your decision as to whether to go or not.
For right-hand bends, the process is to initially move offside on the approach to the bend, and then, on entering the bend, to move as far nearside as it's safe to go. This move nearside should be accompanied with a slight closing of the following position to about 1 1/2 seconds (the only time I advocate getting closer than 2 seconds), and you should then obtain a good view down the offside of the car in front. As you round the bend, from this position, you'll obtain a good, early view of the road as the bend straightens, and if it's safe, you should be able to get out into the overtake nice and early - often whilst still negotiating the bend.
Again, that reads quite complicated, so I'll simplify it...
Approaching the corner, move offside and look offside, and then on entering the corner, move nearside, close up, and look offside.
Don't forget, though, that if the overtake isn't on from the right-hander, you should drop back to a 2-second following position.
So, that's how to move your car around from the following position to obtain a good view, but what else is there to consider?
Other considerations
This list could go on and on, and I'm in no doubt that I'll miss some things, but here goes...
Are there any junctions or entrances to the right? If there are, the car you're intending to overtake could possibly turn right, or something could emerge from the junction and come towards you. If you can get your overtake in well before you get to the junction, then fine, but if not, you should wait until you can see that nothing is going to emerge, and you're happy that the car in front isn't going to turn right.
Is there a faster moving vehicle behind that could overtake you? Organ-donors are notorious for this, as nothing's faster than their Tamajaki 900RSR is it? Your sideways movement looking for a view should be a good visual clue that you're looking for an overtake, but motorcyclists aren't usually too bothered about the complexities of overtaking - breath in and wind it on is the normal motorcyclist's overtaking technique, so us drivers have to compensate for them. A mirror-check is a vital part of the overall planning process for an overtake. Don't go if you're about to be overtaken yourself. And with that in mind...
Is the vehicle you're looking to overtake also looking to overtake? Do the movements of the vehicle suggest they're also looking for the opportunity to go? an un-trained driver will follow the next vehicle quite closely, and their decision to overtake will generally be made much later than a more advanced driver. They usually accompany this with an inability to check their mirrors before overtaking, which means that whilst you may have decided that it's safe to go, and started overtaking, their later decision making could mean that they move out and accelerate just as you're passing them, which isn't good.
Trust me - it's really not good.
What is the performance potential of your car? This may be an obvious one, but it's always something to consider. My plans for overtaking in my M3 differ considerably from my plans for overtaking in the MX-5. It's actually a good exercise to learn how to overtake in a slow car, as the planning required for overtaking is much more intense than if you drive a fast car.
Have I got somewhere to land? Landing space is essential, as you shouldn't be forcing other cars to slow down or alter their position just to allow you to overtake. If the car in front is a tailgater, but they're not actually overtaking, then your plan should always be to overtake both vehicles rather than to take one, and force in between them. If you're overtaking in a line of vehicles, it's much nicer to use acceleration sense to slot into your chosen gap than to over-accelerate and then come in under braking.
Is there a vehicle that you can't see which is currently out of view but travelling towards you? I use organ-donors as an example for this one too, as they're the fastestthingontheroad (TM). Imagine that there's a motorcyclist travelling at full chat towards you, but currently out of view. Can you complete your overtake before coming into conflict with them? If you can, then all well and good, but if you can't, then wait. This is another example of when a good imagination is important to an advanced driver.
Have you selected the correct gear? Gear selection is critical when overtaking. You need a gear which will give you the correct degree of acceleration when you start to go, but not one which is so low that you'll need an up-change halfway through the overtake. I prefer to have both my hands on the wheel whilst overtaking, thank you very much. That correct gear selection should also be considered when you're in the following position. The entry to corners should be accompanied by a change to a flexible gear in anticipation of an overtaking opportunity. If it turns out the overtake isn't on, then you should change back up again and wait for the next one.
Do I have an alternative plan? If things go badly wrong, what are you going to do? Can you brake and get back in behind the vehicle? Is there somewhere else you can go to avoid a collision? Did you put clean underpants on this morning?
As I said, this isn't an exhaustive list - take each overtake as it comes and consider every possible scenario as part of your planned approach.
Completing the overtake
In my mind, once you've weighed everything up and decided to go, that's it - the overtake is done and dusted, and mentally you should be moving on to the next hazard. Physically, you'll be accelerating and completing the overtake, but mentally you should be waaay ahead of that and well into the planning stage for your next manoeuvre, whether it be another overtake, a corner, a roundabout or any one of the other million things we have to deal with as drivers.
The overtake should be completed with a minimum of fuss, and should be started with a move offside, which should not be accompanied by any acceleration. This is very important, as you shouldn't be getting any closer to the vehicle in front than 2 seconds (or 1 1/2 on a right-hand bend). Once you're out, then you should accelerate to pass the vehicle.
You should aim to come back nearside leaving at least a 2 second gap between the overtaken vehicle and yourself. I find that the easiest way to get this right is to wait until you have a full view of the overtaken vehicle in your centre mirror before moving back to the nearside.
Of course, we know that information changes all the time, and once you're out on the overtake, you might decide that there is another one on. Mentally assess each overtake individually, taking account of all the points above, and if it's on, stay out and continue to overtake. My record was a memorable 18-vehicle overtake on a single-carriageway A road, carried out in perfect safety by one of my students.
Remain calm and level-headed when planning overtakes and never base any of your decisions on anger or aggression, or on the fact that you're late - this will affect your ability to make a rational decision and could introduce the one thing that you should always try to keep out of driving - an element of risk.
This has been by far the longest and most difficult post I've written so far. I apologise if I've gone on a bit, but as you can see, it's a very wide-ranging subject and I've tried not to miss anything out.
Although I'm sure I have done.
I haven't re-read the whole thing, but I'm sure there is a section in there which is relevant to the OP.This doesn't have to be the case - there's no big mystery to overtaking, and when it's carried out correctly, it's no more dangerous than any other manoeuvre that we carry out whilst driving. For some reason, however, the general motoring public (bless 'em) seem to view overtaking as a potentially disastrous move only carried out by idiotic johnny-boy-racers. You only have to see the reactions I sometimes get from other drivers when I've carried out perfectly safe overtakes, to realise how many people have an unnecessary aversion to overtaking. If I had a pound for every time someone had suggested a method for putting vinegar on my chips after an overtake, I wouldn't be driving around in an 8 year-old car. And don't they know the bottle works the other way up?
This "overtakaphobia" seems to be a particularly English problem too. I've driven in France, Italy, and extensively in Scotland where I've found the locals far more inclined to assist you in overtaking by moving nearside or giving a helpful indicator when it's safe to go.
I'm of the opinion that this particular phobia stems from two sources - the unnecessarily over-pressed "speed kills" message, and the fact that no-one is ever taught how to overtake properly (unless they take further driver training, and unfortunately, that's only a very small percentage of drivers at the moment).
Now, I can't do much about the first point, other than to say that excessive speed is only a small factor in accident causes, particularly when compared with driver error, but I'm afraid I'm powerless to change the government's stance on speeding, so I can't help there.
What I can do, however, is give you a few pointers on how to overtake safely and efficiently, with maximum control and minimum fuss. So here goes...
The Following Position
"Oh no Reg - not that old chestnut again."
Bear with me - I know the following position is a much discussed topic, but it's a vital element in safe overtaking, and it's where the majority of overtakes start from. There are two main reasons for this - it's far enough back to give you a good view of the road ahead, and it's far enough forward to allow you to quickly move into the overtake if it's on.
If you sit two seconds behind the car in front (slightly more if it's a larger vehicle), then it won't be filling too much of your field of vision - you'll still have a reasonably good view of the road in front of that car. If you move your car sideways at the appropriate times, you can vastly improve your view of the road ahead, but the key is knowing when and where to move your car.
How many times have you seen drivers looking for an overtake by moving their head to the right to improve their view? In most cars, you can only really move your head by a maximum of about a foot, so the improvement in view by moving a foot to the right is fairly minuscule. It's much better practise to move the whole car, as the distance you can potentially move the car sideways is much greater and so, subsequently, is the improvement in your view.
So, where should you be moving to? That depends entirely on what the road is doing.
Lets start with a straight piece of road, as that's the easiest. Move your car towards the centre line whilst in your following position, and look into the distance. If it's safe to do so, you can then move your car across the centre-lines, over towards the offside of the road. This offside move is very alien to some people, but believe me, it's by far the best way to see if the road ahead is clear. The amount of sideways movement can vary from having your offside wheels on the white line, to straddling the white line, to moving completely over to the offside of the road, dependent on the available view. Don't get sucked into the old "right and wrong side of the road" stuff - unless white lines dictate otherwise, it's perfectly acceptable to use the full width of the road if it's safe to do so.
The most common mistake people make when moving offside for a look is this...
They look with their right foot.
To expand on that, people confuse the move offside with the start of an overtake, and, even if they know that they're just trying to improve their view, they accompany the offside move with a slight inadvertent squeeze on the accelerator. They look with their right foot. This is a problem if the overtake isn't on, because when they move back to the nearside, the inevitable result of looking with your right foot is that you close up your following position to less than 2 seconds. Do this several times, and without realising it, you can end up very intimately involved with the car in front, if you get my meaning.
So the sideways move should be just that - a sideways move for a look, and not accompanied with a forwards move.
On a left hand bend, the series of moves required to obtain the optimum view start with a move to the nearside to obtain a view of the bend down the left-hand side of the car in front. Once you've got that nearside view, it can be improved as you get closer to the corner, by moving the car offside. There's no prescriptive distance that you should move offside - just move enough to improve that view down the left-hand side of the car, without going so far that you end up blocking it.
I've just read that back, and it sounds complicated, so I'll try to simplify it...
Approaching the corner, move nearside and look nearside. As you get into the corner, move offside, but keep looking nearside.
There - that's better!
As you round the bend, you'll get a brief view of the road ahead as it straightens up, and if it appears clear, this view can then be confirmed with a move further offside, the outcome of which will finalise your decision as to whether to go or not.
For right-hand bends, the process is to initially move offside on the approach to the bend, and then, on entering the bend, to move as far nearside as it's safe to go. This move nearside should be accompanied with a slight closing of the following position to about 1 1/2 seconds (the only time I advocate getting closer than 2 seconds), and you should then obtain a good view down the offside of the car in front. As you round the bend, from this position, you'll obtain a good, early view of the road as the bend straightens, and if it's safe, you should be able to get out into the overtake nice and early - often whilst still negotiating the bend.
Again, that reads quite complicated, so I'll simplify it...
Approaching the corner, move offside and look offside, and then on entering the corner, move nearside, close up, and look offside.
Don't forget, though, that if the overtake isn't on from the right-hander, you should drop back to a 2-second following position.
So, that's how to move your car around from the following position to obtain a good view, but what else is there to consider?
Other considerations
This list could go on and on, and I'm in no doubt that I'll miss some things, but here goes...
Are there any junctions or entrances to the right? If there are, the car you're intending to overtake could possibly turn right, or something could emerge from the junction and come towards you. If you can get your overtake in well before you get to the junction, then fine, but if not, you should wait until you can see that nothing is going to emerge, and you're happy that the car in front isn't going to turn right.
Is there a faster moving vehicle behind that could overtake you? Organ-donors are notorious for this, as nothing's faster than their Tamajaki 900RSR is it? Your sideways movement looking for a view should be a good visual clue that you're looking for an overtake, but motorcyclists aren't usually too bothered about the complexities of overtaking - breath in and wind it on is the normal motorcyclist's overtaking technique, so us drivers have to compensate for them. A mirror-check is a vital part of the overall planning process for an overtake. Don't go if you're about to be overtaken yourself. And with that in mind...
Is the vehicle you're looking to overtake also looking to overtake? Do the movements of the vehicle suggest they're also looking for the opportunity to go? an un-trained driver will follow the next vehicle quite closely, and their decision to overtake will generally be made much later than a more advanced driver. They usually accompany this with an inability to check their mirrors before overtaking, which means that whilst you may have decided that it's safe to go, and started overtaking, their later decision making could mean that they move out and accelerate just as you're passing them, which isn't good.
Trust me - it's really not good.
What is the performance potential of your car? This may be an obvious one, but it's always something to consider. My plans for overtaking in my M3 differ considerably from my plans for overtaking in the MX-5. It's actually a good exercise to learn how to overtake in a slow car, as the planning required for overtaking is much more intense than if you drive a fast car.
Have I got somewhere to land? Landing space is essential, as you shouldn't be forcing other cars to slow down or alter their position just to allow you to overtake. If the car in front is a tailgater, but they're not actually overtaking, then your plan should always be to overtake both vehicles rather than to take one, and force in between them. If you're overtaking in a line of vehicles, it's much nicer to use acceleration sense to slot into your chosen gap than to over-accelerate and then come in under braking.
Is there a vehicle that you can't see which is currently out of view but travelling towards you? I use organ-donors as an example for this one too, as they're the fastestthingontheroad (TM). Imagine that there's a motorcyclist travelling at full chat towards you, but currently out of view. Can you complete your overtake before coming into conflict with them? If you can, then all well and good, but if you can't, then wait. This is another example of when a good imagination is important to an advanced driver.
Have you selected the correct gear? Gear selection is critical when overtaking. You need a gear which will give you the correct degree of acceleration when you start to go, but not one which is so low that you'll need an up-change halfway through the overtake. I prefer to have both my hands on the wheel whilst overtaking, thank you very much. That correct gear selection should also be considered when you're in the following position. The entry to corners should be accompanied by a change to a flexible gear in anticipation of an overtaking opportunity. If it turns out the overtake isn't on, then you should change back up again and wait for the next one.
Do I have an alternative plan? If things go badly wrong, what are you going to do? Can you brake and get back in behind the vehicle? Is there somewhere else you can go to avoid a collision? Did you put clean underpants on this morning?
As I said, this isn't an exhaustive list - take each overtake as it comes and consider every possible scenario as part of your planned approach.
Completing the overtake
In my mind, once you've weighed everything up and decided to go, that's it - the overtake is done and dusted, and mentally you should be moving on to the next hazard. Physically, you'll be accelerating and completing the overtake, but mentally you should be waaay ahead of that and well into the planning stage for your next manoeuvre, whether it be another overtake, a corner, a roundabout or any one of the other million things we have to deal with as drivers.
The overtake should be completed with a minimum of fuss, and should be started with a move offside, which should not be accompanied by any acceleration. This is very important, as you shouldn't be getting any closer to the vehicle in front than 2 seconds (or 1 1/2 on a right-hand bend). Once you're out, then you should accelerate to pass the vehicle.
You should aim to come back nearside leaving at least a 2 second gap between the overtaken vehicle and yourself. I find that the easiest way to get this right is to wait until you have a full view of the overtaken vehicle in your centre mirror before moving back to the nearside.
Of course, we know that information changes all the time, and once you're out on the overtake, you might decide that there is another one on. Mentally assess each overtake individually, taking account of all the points above, and if it's on, stay out and continue to overtake. My record was a memorable 18-vehicle overtake on a single-carriageway A road, carried out in perfect safety by one of my students.
Remain calm and level-headed when planning overtakes and never base any of your decisions on anger or aggression, or on the fact that you're late - this will affect your ability to make a rational decision and could introduce the one thing that you should always try to keep out of driving - an element of risk.
This has been by far the longest and most difficult post I've written so far. I apologise if I've gone on a bit, but as you can see, it's a very wide-ranging subject and I've tried not to miss anything out.
Although I'm sure I have done.
Great read Reg! The only thing I think you may have missed (I know you say the list is not exhaustive) is junctions on the left. These pose just as much risk as a junction on the right in my opinion, if not more.
It could be that someone turns right out of the junction on the left, now coming towards you. And what's gone on ahead is completely blind to you, and you potentially completely blind to him when he pulls out. At least if a car turns towards you from a junction on the right then both parties are visible to each other.
It could be that someone turns right out of the junction on the left, now coming towards you. And what's gone on ahead is completely blind to you, and you potentially completely blind to him when he pulls out. At least if a car turns towards you from a junction on the right then both parties are visible to each other.
SK425 said:
Thanks for re-posting that Reg. I have read it before but it's good to see again. So what is it about right hand bands partclarly that means you're happy to reduce the 2 second following distance?
My hunch is that you can be closer because the angle across the right hand corner affords good visibility as looking down the road is at something like 2 O'clock and not straight ahead.I subscribe to the principles here more than the exact details which I doubt Reg meant literally anyway (I'm sure he'd correct me) - follow a large vehicle and you need to be further back to be able to more easily see, a small car you could be closer as its easier to see round. The minimum distance dictated by a safe stopping distance.
Thoughts:
The choice of overtake opportunity looks good. I think the OP's vision probably extended right up to the r/h bend at the top of the slope and included the empty parking area, so no worries about the l/h bend, which was not too severe anyway.
The SEAT is clearly thinking about going as the OP does. I think he takes advantage of the OP's slight hesitation to pop out and commit himself. The OP was clearly accelerating at that point, but the SEAT accelerated harder. The gap looks to be about a second. If the OP had started from a closer contact position, the SEAT may have made a different decision. Or he may not, and the OP may have had to brake - which he didn't in the video.
Shame there's no sound so we couldn't hear when the horn toot was given. I'm not sure in that circumstance it was all that necessary. As others have posted, it can be taken more than one way. Coupled with the big following gap, it seems entirely possible in this case.
The headlamp flash was pure annoyance.
@jbsportstech - SVS is an acronym usually used to describe positioning on l/h bends and stands for Stability, View and Safety. The converse, SSV, used on r/h bends, has safety in first position. SVS is a reminder that the Roadcraft position on left handers may require us to sacrifice position for safety. You _could_ use it generically, as you have done, but it's not common.
The choice of overtake opportunity looks good. I think the OP's vision probably extended right up to the r/h bend at the top of the slope and included the empty parking area, so no worries about the l/h bend, which was not too severe anyway.
The SEAT is clearly thinking about going as the OP does. I think he takes advantage of the OP's slight hesitation to pop out and commit himself. The OP was clearly accelerating at that point, but the SEAT accelerated harder. The gap looks to be about a second. If the OP had started from a closer contact position, the SEAT may have made a different decision. Or he may not, and the OP may have had to brake - which he didn't in the video.
Shame there's no sound so we couldn't hear when the horn toot was given. I'm not sure in that circumstance it was all that necessary. As others have posted, it can be taken more than one way. Coupled with the big following gap, it seems entirely possible in this case.
The headlamp flash was pure annoyance.
@jbsportstech - SVS is an acronym usually used to describe positioning on l/h bends and stands for Stability, View and Safety. The converse, SSV, used on r/h bends, has safety in first position. SVS is a reminder that the Roadcraft position on left handers may require us to sacrifice position for safety. You _could_ use it generically, as you have done, but it's not common.
In a way of calming everyone down.....I want to know why the OP was trying such an over take in a Morris Minor?
For my 2 pence worth, if someone is coming up behind me, and swings out to "have a look".....any idea of me attempting an overtake is rejected until he has gone by, i may even indicate left if appropiate, or stick my left mit up under the rear view mirror so as least let him know i have seen him, and suspect he/she is going to try to overtake me.
Did the OP indicate that he was overtaking?.....did the red car driver see the indication? as it was raining, high spray, and head lights were on? Did the flash come across to the red car as dipped beam flashing up if the car had gone over a bump? Modern cars have bad design faults in that many cars have indicators in the headlight cluster, and I find, hard to see, is your car one of those? Or was it just someone who thought "bugger it I'm going"
What i did like was that you did keep your distance, and did not appear to "loose control" of your emotions. Were you right? and the red car wrong? How did the driving of you both effect the drivers of the other two cars?
No one was hurt, we all read and learn....thanks for the read OP!
For my 2 pence worth, if someone is coming up behind me, and swings out to "have a look".....any idea of me attempting an overtake is rejected until he has gone by, i may even indicate left if appropiate, or stick my left mit up under the rear view mirror so as least let him know i have seen him, and suspect he/she is going to try to overtake me.
Did the OP indicate that he was overtaking?.....did the red car driver see the indication? as it was raining, high spray, and head lights were on? Did the flash come across to the red car as dipped beam flashing up if the car had gone over a bump? Modern cars have bad design faults in that many cars have indicators in the headlight cluster, and I find, hard to see, is your car one of those? Or was it just someone who thought "bugger it I'm going"
What i did like was that you did keep your distance, and did not appear to "loose control" of your emotions. Were you right? and the red car wrong? How did the driving of you both effect the drivers of the other two cars?
No one was hurt, we all read and learn....thanks for the read OP!
Edited by watchnut on Saturday 26th April 10:51
In a way of calming everyone down.....I want to know why the OP was trying such an over take in a Morris Minor?
For my 2 pence worth, if someone is coming up behind me, and swings out to "have a look".....any idea of me attempting an overtake is rejected until he has gone by, i may even indicate left if appropiate, or stick my left mit up under the rear view mirror so as least let him know i have seen him, and suspect he/she is going to try to overtake me.
Did the OP indicate that he was overtaking?.....did the red car driver see the indication? as it was raining, high spray, and head lights were on? Did the flash come across to the red car as dipped beam flashing up if the car had gone over a bump? Modern cars have bad design faults in that many cars have indicators in the headlight cluster, and I find, hard to see, is your car one of those? Or was it just someone who thought "bugger it I'm going"
What i did like was that you did keep your distance, and did not appear to "loose control" of your emotions. Where you right and the red car wrong? How did the driving of you both effect the drivers of the other two cars?
No one was hurt, we all read and learn....thanks for the read OP!
For my 2 pence worth, if someone is coming up behind me, and swings out to "have a look".....any idea of me attempting an overtake is rejected until he has gone by, i may even indicate left if appropiate, or stick my left mit up under the rear view mirror so as least let him know i have seen him, and suspect he/she is going to try to overtake me.
Did the OP indicate that he was overtaking?.....did the red car driver see the indication? as it was raining, high spray, and head lights were on? Did the flash come across to the red car as dipped beam flashing up if the car had gone over a bump? Modern cars have bad design faults in that many cars have indicators in the headlight cluster, and I find, hard to see, is your car one of those? Or was it just someone who thought "bugger it I'm going"
What i did like was that you did keep your distance, and did not appear to "loose control" of your emotions. Where you right and the red car wrong? How did the driving of you both effect the drivers of the other two cars?
No one was hurt, we all read and learn....thanks for the read OP!
Edited by watchnut on Saturday 26th April 10:57
Technomad said:
Coming through Glencoe last Sunday, I was sat for several miles behind a red Seat, itself in turn behind two other cars. When a sightline opened up, I could have just put my foot down and done a classic slingshot manoeuvre on all three. What I actually did was follow Roadcraft - move from follow to contact position, indicate, pull out, check my sightline again, give a polite toot to let the three ahead know I was intending an overtake (was already on dip beam), waited a moment and then started to accelerate. That was the exact moment at which the berk in the Seat decided to dive out for an overtake, without paying any attention whatsoever to what was behind him - and I can only assume that he had the stereo on too loudly to hear my horn: had I gone for the slingshot option, I'd have simply collected him in my side. As it was, all I had to do was lift off for a moment to clear him. Of course, in another half second I would have been alongside him, but hopefully at the point where I was visible in whatever he had that passed for peripheral vision.
It does beg the question of just what you have to do to make people use their mirrors or, if they are using them, to stop behaving like complete psychos.
There are elements of roadcraft that are questionable if applied too prescriptively, but there are very few times when I wouldn't use this approach.
http://youtu.be/mTGEUHu6bLI
You are making all kind of assumptions about the driver ahead of you.Yes there are many unpredictable drivers on the road.Psycho not sure.It does beg the question of just what you have to do to make people use their mirrors or, if they are using them, to stop behaving like complete psychos.
There are elements of roadcraft that are questionable if applied too prescriptively, but there are very few times when I wouldn't use this approach.
http://youtu.be/mTGEUHu6bLI
Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff