How's my driving?

[FakeConcern]

I'll start by saying that usually I have no problems with lorry drivers, most are considerate & just getting on with it. However today as I came off of the A2 heading West onto the M25 heading south (clockwise) there is one of those slip roads that goes from 2 into 1 lane before merging with the M25. I was in front of a British Gypsum lorry in the right hand lane as we head to the merge. He then comes up next to me as my lane disappears, so I have to either brake almost to standstill to get behind him or keep on & let him tuck in behind me. I let him go behind me as I was in front all the time. He then flashes & gesticulates! On my dash cam vids, I suggest you turn down the sound on the videos (I haven't listened to them but it might be pretty loud & distorted!). 1st from the front, once we are on the slip road you can't even see the lorry as it's behind & then beside me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7H5pmTdvpdw
2nd from the rear, you can see when we are on the slip road as the arrows are showing the lanes merging, he comes up the inside, what did he think I would do fly? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWIF2FICwec
So what should I have done?

Edited by FakeConcern on Monday 31st March 17:48

[angoooose]

Could always send the videos to one of the links on this page:

http://www.hardstaffgroup.co.uk/site/contact-us

[JamesNotJim]

The way I see it. He knows that the road ahead move's to one lane, as you both start to exit the roundabout you can clearly see him gain speed to "force" you to yield and slip in behind.
I would say you are in the right and he doesn't have warrant to display his displeasure. He's basically being a pleb. You didn't cause him to take any actions to avert hitting you.

[rich83]

I would say that he was just being an arse, trying to block you from filtering in front of him. However, you may have been a bit "slow" up the slip road.

[73mark]

HGV driver in this case,bigger is not better.
Can't see you've done anything wrong,like the show of speed from you though

[Geekman]

I get this quite a lot, although never from lorry drivers. It's the usual situation where if everyone maintained their speed there wouldn't be a problem, but someone decides to speed up to make life difficult for those who want to merge. It's the "you're not pushing in front of me" bks.

[FakeConcern]

Thanks for the feedback,I felt he used the size of the lorry to intimidate me. I was basically trying to let the "zip" thing work so Focus then me then HGV. I didn't bother giving him any sign language, just carried on my way, but I was niggled!

[DHB07]

Geekman said:

I get this quite a lot, although never from lorry drivers. It's the usual situation where if everyone maintained their speed there wouldn't be a problem, but someone decides to speed up to make life difficult for those who want to merge. It's the "you're not pushing in front of me" bks.

By maintaining speed I imagine you actually mean maintaining the current rate of acceleration? Ie, accelerating at the pace of everyone else?

I personally would not want to join a 70mph road at 45/50mph as I guess the speed was at that point.

OP, your move across a couple of lanes seemed a bit more "determined" than perhaps necessary, but no harm done and obviously it was well clear behind.

[Geekman]

DHB07 said:

By maintaining speed I imagine you actually mean maintaining the current rate of acceleration? Ie, accelerating at the pace of everyone else?

I personally would not want to join a 70mph road at 45/50mph as I guess the speed was at that point.

OP, your move across a couple of lanes seemed a bit more "determined" than perhaps necessary, but no harm done and obviously it was well clear behind.

Considering the lorry can only do 56MPH, if he'd have maintained the 45/50MPH at the merge point, the OP would have got in front of him with no bother and they both would have had enough time to accelerate away - the OP to 70, and the lorry to 50/55, which I assume would be the speeds they would normally join the motorway at.

[7mike]

I'll post my usual link for this:

http://www.keithlane.com/page5.htm

Personally I wouldn't position alongside an LGV with a slower vehicle ahead restricting speed & therefore ruling out an escape route.

[StressedDave]

Have you considered the fact that whilst you may have had a great view of the lorry up close and personal, it's highly unlikely the lorry driver could see you at all and was remarkably surprised when he had to jam the brakes on to avoid rubbing you up against the Armco?

Many years ago, I dealt with an RTA where a lorry driver had run over a cyclist who had come up his inside into the advanced start box at a set of traffic lights. We did some observation tests from the cockpit and there was a large 10 area around the front and corners that you simply couldn't see into from the driving seat. It's scarily easy to enter that zone in a car along an axis of invisibility and get all affronted when the lorry driver gives you a bit of reaction.

[gherkins]

StressedDave said:

Have you considered the fact that whilst you may have had a great view of the lorry up close and personal, it's highly unlikely the lorry driver could see you at all and was remarkably surprised when he had to jam the brakes on to avoid rubbing you up against the Armco?

Many years ago, I dealt with an RTA where a lorry driver had run over a cyclist who had come up his inside into the advanced start box at a set of traffic lights. We did some observation tests from the cockpit and there was a large 10 area around the front and corners that you simply couldn't see into from the driving seat. It's scarily easy to enter that zone in a car along an axis of invisibility and get all affronted when the lorry driver gives you a bit of reaction.

Then the lorry driver wasn't paying attention - you can see in the second video that the OP was ahead on entering the slip road and appears to accelerate to try to intentionally block the OP.

[StressedDave]

gherkins said:

Then the lorry driver wasn't paying attention - you can see in the second video that the OP was ahead on entering the slip road and appears to accelerate to try to intentionally block the OP.

No, the lorry driver was accelerating up the slip road, like any sane driver would. I agree the OP was ahead at this point, but potentially he wasn't sufficiently far ahead to be visible and he'd got to that ahead position by overtaking round the outside on the roundabout (which is perfectly legal) at a point where the lorry driver might have his hands full looking at other things.

[gherkins]

StressedDave said:

gherkins said:

Then the lorry driver wasn't paying attention - you can see in the second video that the OP was ahead on entering the slip road and appears to accelerate to try to intentionally block the OP.

No, the lorry driver was accelerating up the slip road, like any sane driver would. I agree the OP was ahead at this point, but potentially he wasn't sufficiently far ahead to be visible and he'd got to that ahead position by overtaking round the outside on the roundabout (which is perfectly legal) at a point where the lorry driver might have his hands full looking at other things.

Look at 0.33 on the video - the entire front of the lorry is visible. The lorry driver surely must have seen the OP, if paying attention. And from his higher cab position he surely must also see that the lanes reduce. To me, it looks like the lorry driver was either inattentive or aggressive.

[budgie smuggler]

StressedDave said:

gherkins said:

Then the lorry driver wasn't paying attention - you can see in the second video that the OP was ahead on entering the slip road and appears to accelerate to try to intentionally block the OP.

No, the lorry driver was accelerating up the slip road, like any sane driver would. I agree the OP was ahead at this point, but potentially he wasn't sufficiently far ahead to be visible and he'd got to that ahead position by overtaking round the outside on the roundabout (which is perfectly legal) at a point where the lorry driver might have his hands full looking at other things.

Would have thought he was visible at this point?

[SK425]

FakeConcern said:

So what should I have done?

Watching your first video, I thought that I probably wouldn't have moved alongside the lorry at the point you did. At 0:14 I would have hung back and waited until there was enough space for me to get all the way past and far enough in front that he could see me ahead. In practice that would probably have meant I'd have got stopped by the traffic lights, but let's leave that aside . (Did the lights maybe draw you into pulling alongside the lorry to try and get to them before they changed?)

Having said that, looking at the second video my definition of "far enough in front" would probably have been met by the position you were in at 0:34. It looks like it's almost immediately then (0:35 it seems to start) that the lorry starts gaining on you again and that feels uncomfortable looking at it. It sort of doesn't matter whether he's being an arse or he just doesn't know you're there. Either way you don't want to be somewhere he might squish you, so are there any other ways out at that point? You could have lifted off at 0:35 and let the lorry continue past, but it feels like I'm saying that with a lot of hindsight. If you did ease up, the lorry couldn't necessarily come cleanly past because of the Focus ahead. I don't think I would have done that. Option 2 - could you have got ahead of the Focus? The HTR van is pulling ahead of the Focus all the time, and by 0:37 there looks to be space to get past and pull in ahead if by that point you had closed up your distance to the Focus. It wouldn't have been pretty though. I expect you would have upset the Focus driver.

I think what you could have done was closed up on the Focus (but staying in the lane outside them) at the point the lorry started gaining on you. You would have maintained - possibly even opened up a little - the gap back to the lorry, so helping make sure he had seen you, and also sent out a clear signal as to where you envisaged your place being in the upcoming merge. And you're in position to overtake the Focus if the vehicles ahead clear a bit quicker and a overtaking the Focus is on. Possibly a left signal to further persuade the lorry driver that your being in front of him is inevitable, not optional. You reach the merge at 0:44 so you've got 9 seconds to assess the lorry driver's reaction to your boldly staking your claim to your position in the merge. Dropping back behind him is always an option if he decides to try and out-bold you (or if he continues his normal acceleration up the slip road having not seen you - if that's the problem).

Edited by SK425 on Tuesday 1st April 17:02

[Hackney]

7mike said:

I'll post my usual link for this:

http://www.keithlane.com/page5.htm

Personally I wouldn't position alongside an LGV with a slower vehicle ahead restricting speed & therefore ruling out an escape route.

So like this then?

[FakeConcern]

7mike said:

I'll post my usual link for this:

http://www.keithlane.com/page5.htm

Personally I wouldn't position alongside an LGV with a slower vehicle ahead restricting speed & therefore ruling out an escape route.

That's the whole point though, I didn't position myself alongside the HGV, as Budgie smuggler points out at the box junction at the start of the slip road I was well ahead & I'm sure he had a clear view of the back of my car. The HGV came up alongside me as the road was running out. BTW those slip roads that go from 2>1 just before the main road merge are a bad idea.

[FakeConcern]

@Hackney-Beat me to it!

[FakeConcern]

SK425 said:

Watching your first video, I thought that I probably wouldn't have moved alongside the lorry at the point you did. At 0:14 I would have hung back and waited until there was enough space for me to get all the way past and far enough in front that he could see me ahead. In practice that would probably have meant I'd have got stopped by the traffic lights, but let's leave that aside . (Did the lights maybe draw you into pulling alongside the lorry to try and get to them before they changed?)

Having said that, looking at the second video my definition of "far enough in front" would probably have been met by the position you were in at 0:34. It looks like it's almost immediately then (0:35 it seems to start) that the lorry starts gaining on you again and that feels uncomfortable looking at it. It sort of doesn't matter whether he's being an arse or he just doesn't know you're there. Either way you don't want to be somewhere he might squish you, so are there any other ways out at that point? You could have lifted off at 0:35 and let the lorry continue past, but it feels like I'm saying that with a lot of hindsight. If you did ease up, the lorry couldn't necessarily come cleanly past because of the Focus ahead. I don't think I would have done that. Option 2 - could you have got ahead of the Focus? The HTR van is pulling ahead of the Focus all the time, and by 0:37 there looks to be space to get past and pull in ahead if by that point you had closed up your distance to the Focus. It wouldn't have been pretty though. I expect you would have upset the Focus driver.

I think what you could have done was closed up on the Focus (but staying in the lane outside them) at the point the lorry started gaining on you. You would have maintained - possibly even opened up a little - the gap back to the lorry, so helping make sure he had seen you, and also sent out a clear signal as to where you envisaged your place being in the upcoming merge. And you're in position to overtake the Focus if the vehicles ahead clear a bit quicker and a overtaking the Focus is on. Possibly a left signal to further persuade the lorry driver that your being in front of him is inevitable, not optional. You reach the merge at 0:44 so you've got 9 seconds to assess the lorry driver's reaction to your boldly staking your claim to your position in the merge. Dropping back behind him is always an option if he decides to try and out-bold you (or if he continues his normal acceleration up the slip road having not seen you - if that's the problem).

Edited by SK425 on Tuesday 1st April 17:02

This is interesting, I'm just looking at the vids again. My thought at the time was that I could fairly easily nip in front of the Focus, but felt I should let the Focus go in front to zip & the HGV would go in behind me. If the HGV had been in front of me or even alongside at the start of the slip i would have dropped back. There was no chance of the HGV getting to 56MPH as the traffic front was holding everyone to about 40. Given that, I think if I'd slowed enough to let the HGV go in front, I'd have been stopped on the merge to the M25!

As regards going by the HGV at the lights, it seemed at the time there was plenty of room & didn't think at the time the lights drew me on. As you can see the road is marked in my lane M25 all around the roundabout to the slip.
Obviously I had to make choices at the time which may not have been the best and in the same situation again I would probably try not to let it develop as it did.