RE: Evora S Sports Racer: Intro
Discussion
Ozzie Osmond said:
Porsche has been gradually moving the 911s engine further forwards.
Have they? Has the centre-point of the block of the 911 actually moved significantly relative to the rear axle since the first six-pot cars? What Porsche have done to make the 911 handle as it does isn't far short of miraculous, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a bloody stupid place to put the engine from a handling perspective, as demonstrated by how much better the Cayman drives than the basic 911.
Edited by kambites on Sunday 20th April 18:43
kambites said:
Has the centre-point of the block of the 911 actually moved significantly relative to the rear axle since the first six-pot cars?
What Porsche have done to make the 911 handle as it does isn't far short of miraculous, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a bloody stupid place to put the engine from a handling perspective, as demonstrated by how much better the Cayman drives than the basic 911.
I agree with much of that. The factors in account have to include the increased length of 911 over the years and, more particularly, the increased wheelbase. You might say the rear axle has been moved backwards as much as the engine has been moved forwards, the overall effect being to suppress the "rear heavy" characteristics of the car. I understand this was achieved by redesign of the transaxle. You can particularly see the increased distance between the rear edge of the doors and the front edge of the rear wheel arches.What Porsche have done to make the 911 handle as it does isn't far short of miraculous, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a bloody stupid place to put the engine from a handling perspective, as demonstrated by how much better the Cayman drives than the basic 911.
Some of the images/video on this link show the stretch through the generations quite well. http://www.notcot.com/archives/2010/04/porsche-911...
kambites said:
Indeed. Basically they've made the 911 more stable/balanced with a combination of very clever suspension setup and increased size and weight. I bet the engine is a markedly smaller proportion of the weight of a 991 than of a 901. 
I've no idea if what you say above is correct, but apparently the 901 weighed c1,080kgs and had a 2.0L flat-six 50 years ago. The 991 weighs c1,395kgs and has a 3.8L flat-six, so I can't imagine there's that much in it I terms of engine to total weight ratio.Despite the received wisdom that the 911 has become enormous, the current 911 isn't that much bigger than it was 15-20 years ago - yes the 993 is about 7cms narrower and 25cms shorter, but it's also taller and 50kgs heavier. The difference isn't huge, and it's still narrower and lighter than the Evora too, for example, or less than 1cm wider than the current Golf.
Gen 1 Cayman is as big as a 993 C2S. I will look out a pic I have of the two at our LeMans chateau.
In terms of the latest 911 I am certain thatt the engine will ne a lesser proportion of the weight than earlier cats, just as I am certain that the same logic applies to just about every car. By the time you add up the weight of aircon, elec windows, airbags, huge brake discs, elec seat motors, power steering, cooling fluids (especially porsche), big wheels, big tyres, larger glass areas, even leather which weighs more than cloth, etc
All probably slightly, but not totally mitigated by the use of aluminium.
In terms of the latest 911 I am certain thatt the engine will ne a lesser proportion of the weight than earlier cats, just as I am certain that the same logic applies to just about every car. By the time you add up the weight of aircon, elec windows, airbags, huge brake discs, elec seat motors, power steering, cooling fluids (especially porsche), big wheels, big tyres, larger glass areas, even leather which weighs more than cloth, etc
All probably slightly, but not totally mitigated by the use of aluminium.
That's all fine blueg33, and I'm glad you're certain about that, but I can't be certain, as I don't have the facts to be.
In any case, the point I was making is that the 911 has grown in size far less than people seem to think, and has actually become lighter than the 993/996/997. Which is pretty remarkable given the growth in engine size, cabin space, standard equipment and safety advances.
In any case, the point I was making is that the 911 has grown in size far less than people seem to think, and has actually become lighter than the 993/996/997. Which is pretty remarkable given the growth in engine size, cabin space, standard equipment and safety advances.
Nohedes said:
That's all fine blueg33, and I'm glad you're certain about that, but I can't be certain, as I don't have the facts to be.
In any case, the point I was making is that the 911 has grown in size far less than people seem to think, and has actually become lighter than the 993/996/997. Which is pretty remarkable given the growth in engine size, cabin space, standard equipment and safety advances.
I hae found some weights, the 2.0 to 2.4 engines weighed about 450lbs or 205kg's, 997 carrera engine appears to weigh about 200kg, so it looks like the ratio of engine weight to car weight has changed a fair bit over the years with the engine becoming a smaller percentage of the overall mass.In any case, the point I was making is that the 911 has grown in size far less than people seem to think, and has actually become lighter than the 993/996/997. Which is pretty remarkable given the growth in engine size, cabin space, standard equipment and safety advances.
This isn't reallu a suprise when you think about the weight of things like big steel brake discs and aircon compressors etc
There's some weird s
t being spouted here about old 911s.
- The 901 engine was originally aluminium, and weighed around 200kgs. Obviously massively over-engineered, it was heavy for its size/construction
- As part of Ferdinand Piech's obsessive development programme in its first decade, both the engine 'block' and gearbox case were re-engineered in magnesium castings - the biggest production ones at the time. As a result, the 911 was one of the few cars to get lighter as production went on (I'm looking at you Mr Elise).
- That 915-type mag alloy gearbox weighed around 50kgs. The PDK unit in the 991 weighs 120kgs.
- Piech also lengthened the 911 wheelbase in 1969 by extending the swing and trailing arms
- The 991 is a bit bigger than a 901:
SS7
t being spouted here about old 911s. - The 901 engine was originally aluminium, and weighed around 200kgs. Obviously massively over-engineered, it was heavy for its size/construction
- As part of Ferdinand Piech's obsessive development programme in its first decade, both the engine 'block' and gearbox case were re-engineered in magnesium castings - the biggest production ones at the time. As a result, the 911 was one of the few cars to get lighter as production went on (I'm looking at you Mr Elise).
- That 915-type mag alloy gearbox weighed around 50kgs. The PDK unit in the 991 weighs 120kgs.
- Piech also lengthened the 911 wheelbase in 1969 by extending the swing and trailing arms
- The 991 is a bit bigger than a 901:
SS7
Impasse said:
Porsche. Porsche. Porsche. Seems curious there's so much chat about Porsche in a thread about a Lotus. Inferiority complex? Fear of being bettered by the underdog from Hethel? How odd Porsche fanatics are.
I think it's fairly natural in a thread about the Evora to discuss the competitor that holds more than half the market share. 
Impasse said:
Porsche. Porsche. Porsche. Seems curious there's so much chat about Porsche in a thread about a Lotus. Inferiority complex? Fear of being bettered by the underdog from Hethel? How odd Porsche fanatics are.
Well, I guess some of us enjoy the best mid-engined cars on this planet for about £50k - which IMO means Lotus and Porsche. We could happily chat about the Ginetta G60 or Alfa 4C as well but there's not many of those around. Artega intrigued me too before its untimely collapse in 2012.IMO the best cars from Lotus and Porsche are great value performance cars even if they aren't quite supercars. But who's complaining if we get to save £100k?!
kambites said:
I think it's fairly natural in a thread about the Evora to discuss the competitor that holds more than half the market share.
Ozzie Osmond said:
Well, I guess some of us enjoy the best mid-engined cars on this planet for about £50k - which IMO means Lotus and Porsche. We could happily chat about the Ginetta G60 or Alfa 4C as well but there's not many of those around. Artega intrigued me too before its untimely collapse in 2012.
IMO the best cars from Lotus and Porsche are great value performance cars even if they aren't quite supercars. But who's complaining if we get to save £100k?!
How much Evora chat takes place over on the Porsche forum? How many 911/Turbo/GT3/air/water et al threads get derailed by people talking about the evolution of the Esprit and the various models' respective dynamic merits? I just find it odd that Porsche people are quite so vociferous when another vehicle is mentioned, let alone should it dare to have a thread started about it.IMO the best cars from Lotus and Porsche are great value performance cars even if they aren't quite supercars. But who's complaining if we get to save £100k?!
Impasse said:
How much Evora chat takes place over on the Porsche forum? How many 911/Turbo/GT3/air/water et al threads get derailed by people talking about the evolution of the Esprit and the various models' respective dynamic merits? I just find it odd that Porsche people are quite so vociferous when another vehicle is mentioned, let alone should it dare to have a thread started about it.
Not unlike the Corvette boys whenever late(ish0 model TVRs are being discussed, then.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff