Building a Special
Discussion
Ah, but a Beacham is still a Mk2, or E-type or whatever. The point here is building a special, and if you sit and read the IVA riles (last time I looked 205 pages) you'll find that it ain't that east any more to build a special. I mean, do the lights conform to the incidence rules? Are the emissions within the norms? Is the dashboard conformant to modern norms? These are but a few of the conundrums that face a special builder today. You only have to look up the specification of the latest Proteus C-type to see what they had to do to conform. 4.2 XK engine fuel injected with catalyst, and so on and so on.
Mistron said:
Exactly Rich, which makes me think projects like the Banham are a non starter these days, and the Ogle replicas must be a bit 'iffy'
Al
I think the Ogle should be okay and you should be able to at least get a period registration to match that of the donor Mini. From their web-site it looks like it's been designed with BIVA in mind.Al
lowdrag said:
The point here is building a special, and if you sit and read the IVA riles (last time I looked 205 pages) you'll find that it ain't that east any more to build a special. I mean, do the lights conform to the incidence rules? Are the emissions within the norms? Is the dashboard conformant to modern norms? These are but a few of the conundrums that face a special builder today. You only have to look up the specification of the latest Proteus C-type to see what they had to do to conform. 4.2 XK engine fuel injected with catalyst, and so on and so on.
If you're building something to go through BIVA then the emissions are dependent on your engine: 1957 engine only needs to conform to specs for that period; a 2005 engine will need to conform to 2005 emissions specs.anonymous said:
[redacted]
Not quite sure where 21924 got the information but it was not from Bensport. Anyway here are the facts: We do not shorten or lengthen chassis for La Sarthe. The frame is used in “as built at Crewe” condition. Yes we work on the suspension, but only by altering the spring rates. As La Sarthe weighs in at 32 cwt, compared with the 38 cwt of the donor car it is obvious that this is necessary. Otherwise the suspension is as first built including original lever arm shock absorbers. We rake the steering column to suit the lower coupe body, but this is in line with standard practice on the factory Continentals. Otherwise the steering is as built. We fit either an original manual or original auto box to customer requirements. In effect this means providing a manual or auto chassis as we will not mix and match. Engines are totally original exception for rebuild items including new bearings, pistons, liners, valves, guides, springs, pressure relief valves, damper plates and springs, and oil and water pump, etc etc.. The camshaft is a reprofiled original.
When these chassis were built at Crewe, Bentley kept very detailed chassis record cards, which included the serial numbers stamped on all major and many smaller chassis components. Bensport provide this history with their cars enabling customers to see that chassis, engine, gearbox, axle, steering, brakes, servo and suspension (except front springs) are as originally assembled. A chassis plate which was attached to the original bulkhead remains fitted to the new bulkhead and the original chassis number stampings are apparent on the chassis on near and off side just forward of the firewall."
What Bensport do alter is clearly listed on their website. This includes exhaust, fuel tank, and radiator, but even the latter two are same shape as original, just made in Ali. As the Bentley could be purchased from the factory in chassis form, to be bodied by the customer's coach builder of choice, what Bensport offer, given the car is over 60 years old could not be closer to original specification and should not be considered as a special.
Not to say that Bensport will not upgrade the car as customers require, but even this will not detract from its inherent originality. We have in fact been criticised for being too “stuffy” about originality. It could reasonably be asked why, given there are other companies building special Bentleys who do make major modifications to the chassis and commonly use non original engines, Bensport was chosen as a (rather poor and ill researched) example.
As for the one mile speedo reading in the advert. The car in the advert is Bensport's demonstrator and is not for sale. Cars are built to customer order and are fitted with new instruments which look the same as originals but are electronically operated. The new odometer will show zero plus test mileage at delivery of car. Customers will undoubtedly realise, that as the running chassis is over 60 years old, although painstakingly rebuilt to minute detail, it will have potentially (and I use the word advisedly) covered a mileage which may be considerable.
Given the above I would suggest that the comments of 21924 regarding La Sarthe are (potentially) misleading. My advice to all concerned is to check the facts for yourself with those who really know and not to rely on hearsay.
Astacus said:
I just popped over to the Bensport site to see what a Lasarth is. I was surprised to find that it has nothing to do with the pretentious end of Streatham but in fact a stunning (and I don't use that word lightly) Bentley Grand Tourer.
If you've never seen one take a look.
That is very, very nice - like the colour too!If you've never seen one take a look.
TooMany2cvs said:
windy1 said:
First we have SVA, then IVA and then suddenly no MOT at all for pre 1960s cars. The sooner we get away from the goons in Europe who are making the rules the better.
Umm, small detail, I know - but you DO realise that all those are purely UK gov't decisions, right...?TooMany2cvs said:
windy1 said:
First we have SVA, then IVA and then suddenly no MOT at all for pre 1960s cars. The sooner we get away from the goons in Europe who are making the rules the better.
Umm, small detail, I know - but you DO realise that all those are purely UK gov't decisions, right...?Vehicles classed as Oldtimers in Belgium can be registered on "O" plates but can only be used up to 25 Km from your home, and not after dark, unless on a registered club event. They only require an MOT at the time you purchase them and register them in your name. After that no test and the taxation rate is low. If you want to use them every day, then its annual tests and full road tax. France, Germany and Holland are all different again and I imagine this is the same for the rest of the European Union.
VAT on classic imports is another minefield. Most mainland Europeans import their classics from outside Europe through the UK, where because various clubs and organisations here kicked up such a stink, the C&R agreed to a 5% VAT payment on import. I believe this was after our C&R having a barney with Brussels and sticking to their guns due to pressure from home. Once an import is in Europe it can go anywhere with no further payments, whereas if it came in through Holland for instance I think the VAT is about 20%. The whole European piece is a mess and a tangle of different rules. I'm sure there are some sitting in Brussels thinking up ways to spoil our fun if they possibly can, especially if they play the Green card!!
Steffan said:
TooMany2cvs said:
windy1 said:
First we have SVA, then IVA and then suddenly no MOT at all for pre 1960s cars. The sooner we get away from the goons in Europe who are making the rules the better.
Umm, small detail, I know - but you DO realise that all those are purely UK gov't decisions, right...?Bensport is right to point out how difficult it can be to register a car in various European countries; Windy1 is also right to an extent in that we could well do without intervention from the EU.
We are very lucky to have BIVA in this country (builders of specials in France, Belgium, Germany, Holland and Spain would love to have a system which would allow a bulletproof legal way of getting a home build on the road) but there are those in the EU machine that would love to be able to rid the UK of it as it does not fit their "one size fits all" view of the world.
Again we are lucky to have the DVLA’s own 8-point system for modifications (which Bensport seem to take advantage of), however, even that could be under threat if the DfT were to adopt FIVA definition of a historic car.
We are very lucky to have BIVA in this country (builders of specials in France, Belgium, Germany, Holland and Spain would love to have a system which would allow a bulletproof legal way of getting a home build on the road) but there are those in the EU machine that would love to be able to rid the UK of it as it does not fit their "one size fits all" view of the world.
Again we are lucky to have the DVLA’s own 8-point system for modifications (which Bensport seem to take advantage of), however, even that could be under threat if the DfT were to adopt FIVA definition of a historic car.
When I'm in charge....... We'd have a system where you could demonstrate that you are not a back street bodger, but in fact 'a good egg' and you are building a special to a 'proper' standard, (not to an infinately prescriptive formula), but sadly, I'll never be in charge, and what used to be called the impecunious enthusiast is now lumped in with everything else which just differs from the status quo, and so is too hard for admin systems to deal with - you can't even just do an engine swap at home these days without a letter from your mum (or an engineer) to say it's been done properly.
I don't want to do anything against the law, but by sticking to it I can't build what I want. I wouldn't mind, but I don't even want to build a death trap! It seems daft I could buy a veteran or vintage car which doesn't meet any of the standards and drive it. In terms of numbers of vehicles, we must be talking roughly the same? and the same government has done away with MOTs for pre '60s cars?????
Maybe I'll write to Alex Salmond and ask if I can build and register my own car on an age appropriate plate if we get independence (If I do it in honour of all our great inventors of the past).
That may just sway me!
:-)
Al
I don't want to do anything against the law, but by sticking to it I can't build what I want. I wouldn't mind, but I don't even want to build a death trap! It seems daft I could buy a veteran or vintage car which doesn't meet any of the standards and drive it. In terms of numbers of vehicles, we must be talking roughly the same? and the same government has done away with MOTs for pre '60s cars?????
Maybe I'll write to Alex Salmond and ask if I can build and register my own car on an age appropriate plate if we get independence (If I do it in honour of all our great inventors of the past).
That may just sway me!
:-)
Al
TooMany2cvs said:
Steffan said:
TooMany2cvs said:
windy1 said:
First we have SVA, then IVA and then suddenly no MOT at all for pre 1960s cars. The sooner we get away from the goons in Europe who are making the rules the better.
Umm, small detail, I know - but you DO realise that all those are purely UK gov't decisions, right...?Mistron said:
When I'm in charge....... We'd have a system where you could demonstrate that you are not a back street bodger, but in fact 'a good egg' and you are building a special to a 'proper' standard
Very, very difficult to do consistently, nationally, without some form of "infinately prescriptive formula". At least with IVA you KNOW what you're aiming at, and that it won't be down to whether you get the grumpy tester on a bad day. Sure, there's some silliness in that formula, but there's more than enough nice easy temporary ways around most of it for the test, should you so desire...Mistron said:
you can't even just do an engine swap at home these days without a letter from your mum (or an engineer) to say it's been done properly.
You certainly CAN. Insurance might not like it much, and might want that letter, but that's a very different thing to Gov't regs.Edited by TooMany2cvs on Thursday 17th April 13:13
Hooli said:
Series LRs keep their reg on brand new galvanised chassis
And so they should - surely this amounts to "maintenance"? A replacement LR chassis is simply there to keep the same car on the road? Same as if you took a 2 year old car with a heavy-ish front smash, and replaced all the panels and the front legs? Ah, hang on, I'm applying common sense where the rules probably don't have a surfeit of that…
CAPP0 said:
Hooli said:
Series LRs keep their reg on brand new galvanised chassis
And so they should - surely this amounts to "maintenance"? A replacement LR chassis is simply there to keep the same car on the road? Same as if you took a 2 year old car with a heavy-ish front smash, and replaced all the panels and the front legs? Ah, hang on, I'm applying common sense where the rules probably don't have a surfeit of that…
However, welding new front legs into a two year old car requires intelligence, specialist welding equipment to deal with modern steels, and accurate jig measurement if you are not to stray into back-street-bodger country - quite a different subject.
Mistron said:
When I'm in charge....... We'd have a system where you could demonstrate that you are not a back street bodger, but in fact 'a good egg' Al
No point covering a long argument that ensued over rebuilding my E-type, but to show how politically correct the world has become you have just laid yourself open to accusations of racial abuse. A policeman staying here recently told me that the above phrase, usually meant as a compliment, derives from Cockney rhyming slang "Egg and spoon" and would leave him open to a racialist charge.Oh hell, here goes anyway. An E-type has the body number stamped, the front frames stamped, the chassis stamped and so on but with the passage of time things get changed and the new parts are always restamped. I mean, you change tyres, don't you? It has always been thus, just like changing a chassis is just changing a worn-out part. I have seen one of the 12 mythical lightweight E-types so rebuilt - twice. Nothing to get hot under the collar about, just the way it is. Continuous history is the key, not how many parts are original.
Flatinfourth said:
However, welding new front legs into a two year old car requires intelligence, specialist welding equipment to deal with modern steels, and accurate jig measurement if you are not to stray into back-street-bodger country - quite a different subject.
It does, absolutely - my point was really about how much of the car you would be replacing in that situation but still not be liable to an IVA.Gassing Station | Classic Cars and Yesterday's Heroes | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff