Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 5

[donutsina911]

Edinburger said:

Any thoughts on this:

Scottish independence: Debt dump worth more than oil, says CPPR

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-polit...

But the Scottish government's "flawed" threat to dump the debt if an independent Scotland could not share the pound under a currency union with the rest of the UK could lead to cross-border acrimony and disturb international markets, leading to "punitive" borrowing costs, it added.

CPPR economist John McLaren said: "Scotland's share of current debt servicing costs is twice the size of projected future oil revenues.

"However, any benefit arising to an independent Scotland from starting with zero historic debt would be heavily influenced by whether this was achieved via amicable negotiations or through Scotland's refusal to accept what the remainder of the UK consider to be an appropriate share."

[bullies180]

donutsina911 said:

Edinburger said:

Any thoughts on this:

Scottish independence: Debt dump worth more than oil, says CPPR

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-polit...

But the Scottish government's "flawed" threat to dump the debt if an independent Scotland could not share the pound under a currency union with the rest of the UK could lead to cross-border acrimony and disturb international markets, leading to "punitive" borrowing costs, it added.

CPPR economist John McLaren said: "Scotland's share of current debt servicing costs is twice the size of projected future oil revenues.

"However, any benefit arising to an independent Scotland from starting with zero historic debt would be heavily influenced by whether this was achieved via amicable negotiations or through Scotland's refusal to accept what the remainder of the UK consider to be an appropriate share."

Just reading John Swinney's reponse...
"However, the Scottish government takes the fair, reasonable and responsible view that an independent Scotland should pay for a fair share of debt - but any agreement which includes liabilities must also include a fair share of the assets of the current UK and the pound."

So if the rUK refuses a currency union, iScotland says fine, no debt, then the rUK says ok no CU and no other assets. Wonder what all the other assets would be worth, military hardware, overseas embassies, what else?

[DMN]

Starfighter said:

Interesting comment in theHerald article about Scotland gettig a large slice of the RN to create a Royal Scotish Navy.
1 - We do not have a Navy large enough to split at present anyway.
2 - Are they planning to retain Her Magesty as head of state or do they pan on anointing Salmond as King Alex I?

A good article from last year on the cost of the Scots setting up their own Navy:

http://thinpinstripedline.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/a...

[NomduJour]

The separatists know that the UK would be forced to defend Scotland's coastline. The idea that they could establish, train and fund any sort of credible armed force is laughable.

[blinkythefish]

Edinburger said:

Any thoughts on this:

Scottish independence: Debt dump worth more than oil, says CPPR

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-polit...

article said:

"substantially improve Scotland's fiscal balance" from the otherwise "poor" economic outlook it faced if it took a population-based share of debt

So with a population based share of the debt - the one that Scotland would likely end up with - there is an economically "poor" outlook.

But you can make it work if you don't accept any of the debt? Funnily enough I can make my house really nice if I put all the cost on my neighbour's credit card and then walk away from the bill....

[Borghetto]

Salmond says "no we won't accept our share of the debt", so UK Govt says no independence. Or Scotland accepts its share then defaults. That'll be a great start for an independent nation. Where do you think that would leave Scotland's trading relationship with the UK Burger? My guess is you would be frozen out of rUK markets. I would think the backlash from rUK Govt and citizens would decimate Scotland's trade (the 75% that is, with your neighbours). You'll need very, very deep pockets to pick up the unemployment benefits bill north of the border.

[Gargamel]

DMN said:

A good article from last year on the cost of the Scots setting up their own Navy:

http://thinpinstripedline.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/a...

Good Find DMN, very interesting and insightful piece of analysis, from an obvious subject matter expert.

Amazing to see how intertwined these fairly basic points really are.

UK Navy has Harpoon missiles. If Scotland go indy, will they take Harpoon with them on the Frigates they say they want....if so, will the US sell them to them ? Will they get a dumbed down version? Who will train them to operate them

So many many questions or a really small topic.

One thing is for sure, if the SNP do win, they are going to be in a whirlwind of detail very very quickly.

[simoid]

Edinburger said:

simoid said:

Plenty of time to post about songs; little for anything related to Scotland after independence.

Dry yer eyes! I'll reply later as I'm now out working.

I don't actually care if you reply to me, I just want to know what you think.

You never tell us.

[pcvdriver]

jimmyjimjim said:

How does being born English make it impossible for you to be anti-English?

Oh Jim, you sussed me out!!! I hate myself and my family and relatives and everyone South of the border. I'm an SNP plant sent back in time as a No Vote Terminator.

Alex-net went live at 0800 bst 17th September 2014 and I was sent back to 1970, so I would only be 9 years old, when the first referendum came round - unable to vote, I would be racked with hatred of a system that wouldn't allow 9 year olds to vote. Fast forward to present-day I became so bitter and twisted I would stab anyone English in my vicinity and call anyone who tried to come to their aid a bunch of s!!!*

*Of course my comments above do not represent any notion of reality, as for Jimjim's - they are just loopy..... Nurse, Nurse!!! Jimmy's got out again and he's got sharpened crayons

[McWigglebum4th]

pcvdriver said:

*Of course my comments above do not represent any notion of reality,

We know that well before now

[NoNeed]

pcvdriver said:

jimmyjimjim said:

How does being born English make it impossible for you to be anti-English?

Oh Jim, you sussed me out!!! I hate myself and my family and relatives and everyone South of the border. I'm an SNP plant sent back in time as a No Vote Terminator.

Alex-net went live at 0800 bst 17th September 2014 and I was sent back to 1970, so I would only be 9 years old, when the first referendum came round - unable to vote, I would be racked with hatred of a system that wouldn't allow 9 year olds to vote. Fast forward to present-day I became so bitter and twisted I would stab anyone English in my vicinity and call anyone who tried to come to their aid a bunch of s!!!*

*Of course my comments above do not represent any notion of reality, as for Jimjim's - they are just loopy..... Nurse, Nurse!!! Jimmy's got out again and he's got sharpened crayons

Those English that have joined the yes camp have in my opinion joined from the left of the political spectrum. For those it is a case of anything to upset the tories. I have yet to see any right leaning English person get actively involved in the yes campaign. happy to be proved wrong though.


Meanwhile anti-English attacks from those Cuddly English loving Scots continue to rise.

[pcvdriver]

McWigglebum4th said:

The substitute word for english i belive is Tory

Are you going to deny it is an anti tory movement then

Er....fail!!! I've nearly lost count of the amount of times where I have stated how ironic independence would be for the Tory party, as it may spark a revival of their fortunes....

You know just like when Holyrood was at it's inception stage - The Tories had not one single MP in Scotland and were probably the loudest in shouting their dissent to the idea.
These days, they have a Scottish MP at Westminster and they even have MSPs too. The independence movement is simply one for Scotland's decisions to be made in Scotland for the people of Scotland, by the people of Scotland (Without having to ask Westminster if it's OK to do so first).

[gwm]

Some more Yessers on here now.

I just always get the feeling that what the Yessers want is independence, whereas what is being proposed isn't. Yet the SNP have convinced the Yessers they are getting independence, while using things like getting CU and keeping public sector jobs is to calm down those that worry about them.

I'd find it more palatable if what was being proposed was proper independence, and the Yessers just said "yes, it will probably cost some jobs while we move to independence, but in the long run we will be better off". Whereas they don't, they say we'll have all this extra power (not much) and your job isn't at risk.

As an aside, had an interesting debate with some grey power the other day. Think Alex Salmond is a wker, but hate the Tories so much because of Thatcher and poll tax that they will never vote for them. On deaf ears when I pointed out the centrality of both Labour and the Tories these days, and all the investment that is going on around us (which they claimed only happened in London at the expense of Scotland).

[Troubleatmill]

pcvdriver said:

McWigglebum4th said:

The substitute word for english i belive is Tory

Are you going to deny it is an anti tory movement then

Er....fail!!! I've nearly lost count of the amount of times where I have stated how ironic independence would be for the Tory party, as it may spark a revival of their fortunes....

You know just like when Holyrood was at it's inception stage - The Tories had not one single MP in Scotland and were probably the loudest in shouting their dissent to the idea.
These days, they have a Scottish MP at Westminster and they even have MSPs too. The independence movement is simply one for Scotland's decisions to be made in Scotland for the people of Scotland, by the people of Scotland (Without having to ask Westminster if it's OK to do so first).

Problem is - all those Scottish councils used to be able to make many decisions locally. A lot of that has been taken away as Edinburgh now make the decisions centrally.

Hope the irony of this isn't lost on you.

[pcvdriver]

NoNeed said:

Those English that have joined the yes camp have in my opinion joined from the left of the political spectrum. For those it is a case of anything to upset the tories. I have yet to see any right leaning English person get actively involved in the yes campaign. happy to be proved wrong though.


Meanwhile anti-English attacks from those Cuddly English loving Scots continue to rise.

In my family's case, we have lived in Scotland since 1973, so we are hardly new arrivals jumping on the bandwagon. Let's see how loudly the Tories are still complaining if their fortunes are reversed in the future Scottish Parliament. If they gain more three seats, they'll have done better post-independence than they have done in a generation. Now wouldn't that be a giggle?

[Neonblau]

pcvdriver said:

Er....fail!!! I've nearly lost count of the amount of times where I have stated how ironic independence would be for the Tory party, as it may spark a revival of their fortunes....

You know just like when Holyrood was at it's inception stage - The Tories had not one single MP in Scotland and were probably the loudest in shouting their dissent to the idea.
These days, they have a Scottish MP at Westminster and they even have MSPs too. The independence movement is simply one for Scotland's decisions to be made in Scotland for the people of Scotland, by the people of Scotland (Without having to ask Westminster if it's OK to do so first).

Specifically which decisions do you have in mind, that can't already be made in Scotland, and what will the specific benefits be? Apart from your nuke obsession.

[Rollin]

It's a good job currency union is off the table since asking Westminster before doing anything would have been exactly what Scotland would be doing.
Most likely they'd be asking a hated tory government for permission too (with zero ability to alter that government).

That would be entertaining.

ETA Plan B (whatever that is) will most likely involve a lot of influence from the UK since Scotland isn't able to go it alone without help.

Edited by Rollin on Tuesday 15th April 13:06

[DuncsGTi]

pcvdriver said:

DuncsGTi said:

Finally sorted out my registration to vote today

My postal vote will be sent to my new address in the south of England as a registered service voter.

It strikes me as a bit of a fix that the scots probably most likely to vote no (in the respect that they are taking full advantage of a free labour market by living and working throughout the UK) are the ones who are unable to have a say on this.



However, in the unlikely event of a yes, and the ensuing economic crisis, I might take the opportunity to buy myself a nice wee holiday house in the highlands at a knock down price .

Wiggly might sell you his....he's doing a bunk - so he keeps telling us

Believe it or not, I already have "done a bunk" The possibility of independence and it's outfall was one of the main reasons I bought in England over my native Scotland.

[jimmyjimjim]

pcvdriver said:

jimmyjimjim said:

How does being born English make it impossible for you to be anti-English?

Oh Jim, you sussed me out!!! I hate myself and my family and relatives and everyone South of the border. I'm an SNP plant sent back in time as a No Vote Terminator.

Alex-net went live at 0800 bst 17th September 2014 and I was sent back to 1970, so I would only be 9 years old, when the first referendum came round - unable to vote, I would be racked with hatred of a system that wouldn't allow 9 year olds to vote. Fast forward to present-day I became so bitter and twisted I would stab anyone English in my vicinity and call anyone who tried to come to their aid a bunch of s!!!*

*Of course my comments above do not represent any notion of reality, as for Jimjim's - they are just loopy..... Nurse, Nurse!!! Jimmy's got out again and he's got sharpened crayons

This seems a fairly excessive reaction to a simple question? But not an answer?

[McWigglebum4th]

Scottish nationalists

Isn't surprising how many english friends they always have