Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 5

[Troubleatmill]

alock said:

mpire said:

we are all " different " .....

Quite. What they seem to miss is we have the two main parties we do because of the electorate. They are both fairly central, one leans slightly left, the other slightly right.

The same will happen to an independent Scotland. All parties would move to the left so that every few elections a different party gets in.

Those who think they are currently misrepresented will continue to feel the same for 50% of the elections. Everything will just be slightly to the left of where it is now.

But.. can you imagine how successful a country that has first past the post would be - if all parties agreed to some common fiscal rules.
- You can only run a balanced budget. etc.

Give the left and right some latitude to shape the country - but prevent them from going on a drunken spending spree to screw up the next 3 generations.

[Troubleatmill]

Welshbeef said:

Interesting - see quote below from Salmond

"
But in a speech to trade unionists in Dundee, Mr Salmond issued a guarantee that shipbuilding would continue long-term in Scotland.

He insisted the Royal Navy would continue to buy ships from the Clyde, and further jobs would be secured through diversification.
"

I wager £1000 right now that "the Pope wins Rabbi of the year" before that happens.

[gwm]

The referendum debate is a bit of a disaster, not much of substance has been said.

Angela Constance seems a fairly level headed Yesser (if a bit of a dreamer), but Lesley Riddoch is such a rude ahole.

[Welshbeef]

Troubleatmill said:

I wager £1000 right now that "the Pope wins Rabbi of the year" before that happens.

Thing is that article continues and his audience a Union group in Dundee gave him a standing ovation -

[Troubleatmill]

Welshbeef said:

Troubleatmill said:

I wager £1000 right now that "the Pope wins Rabbi of the year" before that happens.

Thing is that article continues and his audience a Union group in Dundee gave him a standing ovation -

But if you are a Sheep Shagger Guru at a Sheep Shagger Wales meet. The audience would give you a standing ovation too - as long as you say sheep shagging is good. ( it is union with a small u . Big difference )

[confused_buyer]

pcvdriver said:

Only if population density gets to be as out of control, through lack of proper planning as S E England.

A lot of the areas where there are tensions are not densely populated. The problem with these areas is there might be plenty of space but there aren't many houses unless you build them and more importantly there aren't many jobs.

Last time I looked, Lincolnshire, where UKIP have made major inroads wasn't exactly packed. Most of the anti-immigration feeling is in the rural areas, not the South East around London.

[Troubleatmill]

mpire said:

alock said:

mpire said:

we are all " different " .....

Quite. What they seem to miss is we have the two main parties we do because of the electorate. They are both fairly central, one leans slightly left, the other slightly right.

The same will happen to an independent Scotland. All parties would move to the left so that every few elections a different party gets in.

Those who think they are currently misrepresented will continue to feel the same for 50% of the elections. Everything will just be slightly to the left of where it is now.

Agreed. I think a significant lurch to the left is precisely
what would happen in an independent Scotland ... which bodes the question:
why would Salmond have been apparently suggesting exactly that as a pro
independence inducement at an SNP ( NOT ) Labour conference, last weekend ?

Why would he present that as a positive for his campaign ? ...

the suggestion that a TORY government is not something that Scotland would
have to consider again ... Isn't LABOUR his probable main opposition ?

Are, we playing to the gallery here, Eck ?

Could it possibly be that if the SNP get independence - there is no more need for the party.... so stand to be the face of "Och aye the noo Labour."
Having two left of centre main parties is one to many.... if you want to be the grand Poobah; you know what you need to do.

[Welshbeef]

Troubleatmill said:

Could it possibly be that if the SNP get independence - there is no more need for the party.... so stand to be the face of "Och aye the noo Labour."
Having two left of centre main parties is one to many.... if you want to be the grand Poobah; you know what you need to do.

Is there any country in the world which has two main left parties and a tiny minority right wing

[s2art]

Welshbeef said:

Is there any country in the world which has two main left parties and a tiny minority right wing

The UK? (Tories are not really Tories any more). OK, I am wrong, the UK has three left wing parties.

[Welshbeef]

s2art said:

The UK? (Tories are not really Tories any more). OK, I am wrong, the UK has three left wing parties.

In which case why are the Scottish so anti Torys when they are actually left wing themselves. Do they want Carl Marx style?

[paulrockliffe]

Wouldn't it be more pertinent to discuss the effects of the inevitable emigration, rather than some fantasy land immigration policy that is mutually exclusive with the policy of EU membership?

[Big Rod]

Serious question...

...If the independence movement is successful and the first Scottish general election comes around, could the Scottish Conservatives be funded by the rUK Conservatives or must they be independently funded?

[pcvdriver]

Troubleatmill said:

Could it possibly be that if the SNP get independence - there is no more need for the party.... so stand to be the face of "Och aye the noo Labour."
Having two left of centre main parties is one to many.... if you want to be the grand Poobah; you know what you need to do.

That would be exactly the case. The SNP would have no reason to continue and the various MPs would migrate away in the dirction that their political leanings took them.
So one more time for the hard of thinking (not directing this at you in any way Trouble) - A vote for Yes is NOT a vote for the SNP, but merely one for independence. For those who wish to see the SNP disbanded as quickly as possible, wouldn't a Yes vote from you, instead of a no vote be the better, most expedient, not to mention pragmatic option?

[NoNeed]

Big Rod said:

Serious question...

...If the independence movement is successful and the first Scottish general election comes around, could the Scottish Conservatives be funded by the rUK Conservatives or must they be independently funded?

I have a question as well.


What's to stop somebody with a majority in the Scottish parliament doing what Gordon Brown did at Lisbon effectively reforming the union?


Oh and sorry I can't answer your question

[mpire]

pcvdriver said:

So one more time for the hard of thinking (not directing this at you in any way Trouble) - A vote for Yes is NOT a vote for the SNP, but merely one for independence. For those who wish to see the SNP disbanded as quickly as possible, wouldn't a Yes vote from you, instead of a no vote be the better, most expedient, not to mention pragmatic option?

No ... why should the whole country ( if for the sake of argument,
we consider Scotland to be a country )
be subjected to an indeterminate economic future .. aka suffer. Simply to negate the
platform that the SNP is putting forward ?

A resounding " No " will marginalise the SNP just as effectively, and it's
left leaning MP's would still be able to go on and join the centre left
party of choice .... would they not ?

Hard of thinking .... you have a monopoly on rational thought I suppose ?
If so, I'd reconsider my pov on unrestricted immigration that you endorse on here ...
if I were you.

[Rollin]

pcvdriver said:

Troubleatmill said:

Could it possibly be that if the SNP get independence - there is no more need for the party.... so stand to be the face of "Och aye the noo Labour."
Having two left of centre main parties is one to many.... if you want to be the grand Poobah; you know what you need to do.

That would be exactly the case. The SNP would have no reason to continue and the various MPs would migrate away in the dirction that their political leanings took them.
So one more time for the hard of thinking (not directing this at you in any way Trouble) - A vote for Yes is NOT a vote for the SNP, but merely one for independence. For those who wish to see the SNP disbanded as quickly as possible, wouldn't a Yes vote from you, instead of a no vote be the better, most expedient, not to mention pragmatic option?

It must be all preposterous bluff and bluster from the SNP about them carrying on after independence then.

[IroningMan]

pcvdriver said:

That would be exactly the case. The SNP would have no reason to continue and the various MPs would migrate away in the dirction that their political leanings took them.
So one more time for the hard of thinking (not directing this at you in any way Trouble) - A vote for Yes is NOT a vote for the SNP, but merely one for independence. For those who wish to see the SNP disbanded as quickly as possible, wouldn't a Yes vote from you, instead of a no vote be the better, most expedient, not to mention pragmatic option?

The SNP will disband in a wave of mutual self-congratulation, job well done, in September? Do be brief.

The SNP expects to be returned to government more or less in perpetuity by the voters of a grateful (new) nation. You are naïve in the extreme if you think the referendum is the beginning and end of their raison d'etre.

[Alfa numeric]

Rollin said:

pcvdriver said:

Troubleatmill said:

Could it possibly be that if the SNP get independence - there is no more need for the party.... so stand to be the face of "Och aye the noo Labour."
Having two left of centre main parties is one to many.... if you want to be the grand Poobah; you know what you need to do.

That would be exactly the case. The SNP would have no reason to continue and the various MPs would migrate away in the dirction that their political leanings took them.
So one more time for the hard of thinking (not directing this at you in any way Trouble) - A vote for Yes is NOT a vote for the SNP, but merely one for independence. For those who wish to see the SNP disbanded as quickly as possible, wouldn't a Yes vote from you, instead of a no vote be the better, most expedient, not to mention pragmatic option?

It must be all preposterous bluff and bluster from the SNP about them carrying on after independence then.

What he's suggesting means that, for all intents and purposes, Scotland would become a one party state. And that one party would be Labour.

That can't be seen as a good thing, no matter what your political leanings are.

[simoid]

pcvdriver said:

That would be exactly the case. The SNP would have no reason to continue and the various MPs would migrate away in the dirction that their political leanings took them.
So one more time for the hard of thinking (not directing this at you in any way Trouble) - A vote for Yes is NOT a vote for the SNP, but merely one for independence. For those who wish to see the SNP disbanded as quickly as possible, wouldn't a Yes vote from you, instead of a no vote be the better, most expedient, not to mention pragmatic option?

A yes vote means the SNP set the political playing field for the rest of Scotland's life. They're also the government of Scotland until hypothetical first general election.

They don't just disappear on 19th September with a Yes vote, although they should with a No.

Are you ready for a grown up discussion about consequences of leaving the UK yet, or are you happy just pointing out little discrepancies in other people's points?

[Neonblau]

gofasterrosssco said:

All I really get from you're response is that you really don't like Tories n' stuff. The whole immigration thing is tenuous at best. You really think Scotland should be independant as it MAY have a less restrictive immigration policy.? And erecting another border is going to enhance immigration, to a country that may not have immediate EU membership?

Tell me specifically what policies or benefits enacted by the UK government are specifically designed to benefit London? You sound like a typical jealous leftie that trots out the usual London stuff who can't quite understand why a city like London has been sucessful, and therefore "blames the government".. Its also about the most multi-cultural place in the UK. And I'm not a particular fan of London as a destination I'd like to live / work in..

Do you actually know what you'll be voting for?

Looks like we are both waiting on answers to those questions. All I got was a half baked rant about immigration which didn't stand scrutiny by anyone with a playground level understanding of economics.

Still waiting for details of all the other decisions that can be made in, by, for Scotland that can't be done now and their benefits.