Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 5

[DanL]

Have always been confused by that wealth claim. At present, Scotland is part of the 6th largest economy in the world, contributing ~10% of GDP (figures from Wiki, so forgive me if they're wrong!). On its own, Scotland's GDP is (it says here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Scotland ) $250 billion, which sounds like a lot but would put Scotland around about 39th place globally, just in front of the Philippines and behind Nigeria...

Being part of a massive economy gets you some nice bargaining power, I would have thought. Being 39th, not so much...

On the subject if money, it's also confused me that the "no pound/oil/whatever then no share of the debt" thing is stated so often, in the belief that Scotland holds some trump card here... For some reason, there's no thought to what the rUK could bargain with. For example - vetoing the request for EU membership...

[ianrb]

DanL said:

Have always been confused by that wealth claim. At present, Scotland is part of the 6th largest economy in the world, contributing ~10% of GDP (figures from Wiki, so forgive me if they're wrong!). On its own, Scotland's GDP is (it says here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Scotland ) $250 billion, which sounds like a lot but would put Scotland around about 39th place globally, just in front of the Philippines and behind Nigeria...

Being part of a massive economy gets you some nice bargaining power, I would have thought. Being 39th, not so much...

On the subject if money, it's also confused me that the "no pound/oil/whatever then no share of the debt" thing is stated so often, in the belief that Scotland holds some trump card here... For some reason, there's no thought to what the rUK could bargain with. For example - vetoing the request for EU membership...

Now stop that bullying...

[pcvdriver]

///ajd said:

I think you are pretty sure the scots are better than the stupid english and can run themselves much better than with the thieving english. This is how you come across to me. If you support a Yes vote, you are supporting the SNP and their policies, which you presumably think are OK? In this case I assume you think that discriminating against english students is OK? Do you?

I don't buy any of this 'its not about the SNP' tosh, its total bks, presumably only peddled as you are in denial about openly admitting support for the more ugly policies that are being pushed. Make no mistake, a vote for Yes is a vote to (try and) kick the rUK in the balls and say F you. It will fail miserably, but the fallout will be deeply unpleasant.

I'd have to hazard a guess that you haven't read about Fluff outing me as being born South of the border, not that it matters one iota where anyone was born......apart from total fkwits, who try and make political capital out of a total non-issue.

As far as Uni fees go.....can I just ask if you benefited from a free university place or not? (not that it matters in the great scheme of things). My position as regards fees is this - if you went to school in Scotland - Uni should be free, for ALL others = pay your fees.....that goes for EU/other international students (it should be noted that there are EU funding options available to EU students).
It was the Westminster Government (NOT HOLYROOD) that announced they would start setting fees for UK university students, and it was Holyrood's position that we (Scotland) could afford to pay for our own students. No racism - we just believe that education should be free for our citizens.

As for ugly policies - it was truly horrendous that Westminster should seek to deny those from poorer backgrounds, the chance to affordably advance to tertiary education. We in Scotland thought it so abhorrent, that we made the decision to find the funds for our own students.

Edited by ///ajd on Sunday 20th April 18:23[/footnote]

[footnote]Edited by pcvdriver on Sunday 20th April 22:47

[simoid]

The SNP policy is to give free education to anyone in the EU, apart from residents of England, Wales or Northern Ireland.

This is clear and blatant discrimination against those folk.

Moaning about Westminster doesn't change that.

[pcvdriver]

simoid said:

The SNP policy is to give free education to anyone in the EU, apart from residents of England, Wales or Northern Ireland.

This is clear and blatant discrimination against those folk.

Moaning about Westminster doesn't change that.

Westminster put the fees policy in place. We in Scotland put in place a policy to pay for our own students (out of the Scottish public purse - not Westminster's). EU students fees are paid for by various funding options paid for by the EU.
Yup, the barstewards in Westminster (who, to a man, will have enjoyed the benefits of free tertiary education) have the temerity to whisk away what used to be considered as a given that university should be free.
It should be noted that our current borrowing, whilst on the high side - is still far, far lower than our relative borrowing in the 50's and 60's......our high rate of borrowing back then did not hinder our growth, but the exact opposite - in this period we turned Britain into the modern country it is today.

Edited by pcvdriver on Sunday 20th April 22:48

[NoNeed]

pcvdriver said:

simoid said:

The SNP policy is to give free education to anyone in the EU, apart from residents of England, Wales or Northern Ireland.

This is clear and blatant discrimination against those folk.

Moaning about Westminster doesn't change that.

Westminster put the fees policy in place. We in Scotland put in place a policy to pay for our own students (out of the Scottish public purse - not Westminster's). EU students fees are paid for by various funding options paid for by the EU.
Yup, the barstewards in Westminster (who, to a man, will have enjoyed the benefits of free tertiary education) have the temerity to whisk away what used to be considered as a given that university should be free.
It should be noted that our current borrowing, whilst on the high side - is still far, far lower than our relative borrowing in the 50's and 60's......our high rate of borrowing back then did not hinder our growth, but the exact opposite - in this period we turned Britain into the modern country it is today.

Edited by pcvdriver on Sunday 20th April 22:48

Please explain how the EU pays a French students fees and not an English students.

[pcvdriver]

McWigglebum4th said:

Easy for you to say

You aren't about to see your life ruined by some nasty little aholes

Why? Has someone turned down your application for a green card then? The nasty little aholes!!! Mind you the Yanks can just be like that at times.....

[pcvdriver]

NoNeed said:

Please explain how the EU pays a French students fees and not an English students.

Previously the EU paid fees for non-domestic students (I.E. those not from the UK) No change there and continue to do so. UK government then sets fees for ALL UK students = UK students are deemed to be domestic students and not eligible for EU funding at home (UK) universities, are you still with me, or do I have to start using crayons and very BIG writing to make it easier?.

The government in Scotland thought that Westminster's decision to start charging fees was so backward thinking, that we decided it was in Scotland's best interests to find the funds to be made available to support our own students out of our own pocket.

Just to clarify your befuddled state - there is no discrimination at play here - only short-sightedness by Westminster not wanting to support and develop the future potential leaders and captains of industry.......in the interest of saving money.

[simoid]

PCVDriver, you should probably read your few latest posts back so you can see how gigantic a willy you're coming across as.

[simoid]

pcvdriver said:

Previously the EU paid fees for non-domestic students (I.E. those not from the UK) No change there and continue to do so. UK government then sets fees for ALL UK students = UK students are deemed to be domestic students and not eligible for EU funding at home (UK) universities, are you still with me, or do I have to start using crayons and very BIG writing to make it easier?.

The government in Scotland thought that Westminster's decision to start charging fees was so backward thinking, that we decided it was in Scotland's best interests to find the funds to be made available to support our own students out of our own pocket.

Just to clarify your befuddled state - there is no discrimination at play here - only short-sightedness by Westminster not wanting to support and develop the future potential leaders and captains of industry.......in the interest of saving money.

Aren't we talking about post-independence?

The SNP plan to charge foreigners from the EU zero pounds to be educated in Scotland, but plan to charge English, NI and Welsh foreigners many pounds.

[blinkythefish]

pcvdriver said:

Previously the EU paid fees for non-domestic students (I.E. those not from the UK) No change there and continue to do so. UK government then sets fees for ALL UK students = UK students are deemed to be domestic students and not eligible for EU funding at home (UK) universities, are you still with me, or do I have to start using crayons and very BIG writing to make it easier?.

The government in Scotland thought that Westminster's decision to start charging fees was so backward thinking, that we decided it was in Scotland's best interests to find the funds to be made available to support our own students out of our own pocket.

Just to clarify your befuddled state - there is no discrimination at play here - only short-sightedness by Westminster not wanting to support and develop the future potential leaders and captains of industry.......in the interest of saving money.

Ok, think very hard now: After independence, when Scotland is a different country from the rUK, will All UK students still be deemed to be domestic students, or will those in the rUK be in a different country? Does this mean that rUK students will be eligible for EU funding if they go to a different country like, say, Scotland? Is it an SNP policy to still charge rUK students to attend Scottish university even after independence? Is this a blatant discriminatory policy?

[Funk]

///ajd said:

confused_buyer said:

Couple of new polls this morning, both showing it quite close.

Is half of Scotland really racist/selfish towards the UK, or gullible enough to believe the SNP lies and deceit of a magical new land of money trees and free stuff?

Scotland seems to be broadly left-leaning so I'd say you pretty much nailed it with your second point.

[davepoth]

pcvdriver said:

Just to clarify your befuddled state - there is no discrimination at play here - only short-sightedness by Westminster not wanting to support and develop the future potential leaders and captains of industry.......in the interest of saving money.

Nope, nothing to do with that at all. Free university places were distorting the job market and it was a good thing that they were finished in England. Here's why.

50% of school leavers were going to university. Now, it might be laudable that so many were going on to further learning, but 50% of the available jobs are not suitable for graduates. But, as is the way with these things, employers were cleverer than government. All of a sudden, jobs that used to require a few good A-Levels became graduate roles, and the roles that used to need a good Batchelors' Degree now required a Masters', just because of qualification inflation.

This had the effect of stopping people who quite reasonably thought that getting a crap degree from a former polytechnic was frankly a bit of a waste of time from getting a job, for no reason other than a piece of paper that didn't mean a great deal.

The people who went to university and graduated with a third in media studies then had to go and work in a job that they could have done three years earlier, a job that did not utilise the expensive university education they had received. Where's the benefit to society, exactly?

A less short-sighted Scottish government, one that wasn't quite so hell-bent on giving London a bloody nose (presumably the one they'd just cut from their own face in spite), would have instead channelled that money into apprenticeships and entrepreneurship, ensuring that the school-leavers who weren't as academic had a better opportunity to learn a trade, or start a business, and become useful members of society.

Of course, you can send all of your school leavers to University if you like. It's your choice.

[Big Rod]

pcvdriver said:

Why? Has someone turned down your application for a green card then? The nasty little aholes!!! Mind you the Yanks can just be like that at times.....

We took a wee drive up north two weeks ago.

I think I can understand why people north of Perth want independence. It's a beautiful place and I'd want to keep it to myself too. But then, it's not such a competitive arena is it?

South of Perth is a completely different ballgame isn't it? There's a huge gulf of 'wealth'.

Central Scotland has some of the wealthiest and 'poor', (note the inverted commas!), people in the whole of the UK.

The 'wealthy' aren't going to worry too much. They'll just do what they have to do. I'm not 'rich' but much like Wiggly and I propose, there'll be a fairly big loss of revenue. (The property market around Inverness is a bit of a 'tell'.) Many of the rest will just 'want'.

Good luck filling that gap.

Edited by Big Rod on Sunday 20th April 23:44

[///ajd]

It seems pcv has no issue with the proposed SNP policy to charge english students but not french ones. In his world this is not racist but westminsters fault, hey, probably thatchers fault. Its always someone elses fault. Blaming a bogey man is the classic nationalist strategy to boost support amongst those wanting to find someone to blame for their woes.

Godwin alert: Demonising the jews worked a treat for Adolf. Its kind of relevant here though, no? The english are the root of all Scotlands ills and must be eradicated from Scottish affairs so they can flourish. Your last posts effectively spit just that kind of bile pcv - read them. Pretty much the salmond mantra too, whilst he pretends we'll still be 'best pals'.

[ninja-lewis]

pcvdriver said:

As far as Uni fees go.....can I just ask if you benefited from a free university place or not? (not that it matters in the great scheme of things). My position as regards fees is this - if you went to school in Scotland - Uni should be free, for ALL others = pay your fees.....that goes for EU/other international students (it should be noted that there are EU funding options available to EU students).
It was the Westminster Government (NOT HOLYROOD) that announced they would start setting fees for UK university students, and it was Holyrood's position that we (Scotland) could afford to pay for our own students. No racism - we just believe that education should be free for our citizens.

As for ugly policies - it was truly horrendous that Westminster should seek to deny those from poorer backgrounds, the chance to affordably advance to tertiary education. We in Scotland thought it so abhorrent, that we made the decision to find the funds for our own students.

No, you can't do that because EU law requires that you treat citizens of other EU countries exactly as you treat you own.

Just like the current rules that require a student be ordinarily resident in Scotland/ EU for three years, your Scottish School rule would have to be extended to all students who attend an EU school.

The Scottish Government can only discriminate against English students at present because the EU does not intervene where one part of a member state discriminates against another part of the same member state.

Eligible EU students apply to the Student Awards Agency for Scotland for their tuition fees to be paid. SAAS in turn is paid by the Scottish Government. There is no EU funding involved. The cost to the Scottish Government a few years ago was £75 million. That is why there is a strict cap on the number of Scottish and EU students that Scottish universities can accept. It has been known for Scottish students to be barred from places in Clearing because the university has already accepted its quota of Scottish/EU students. The places can only then go to Rest of UK students and non-EU students who pay tuition fees themselves (the Rest of the UK students take out a student loan as normal).

Now in the event of an independent Scotland, the Rest of the UK will be a separate EU member. The Scottish Government have a tenuous plan to continue the then otherwise unlawful discrimination by appealing to the EU on the grounds of special circumstances. However, the EU has never granted such an exception in the past and is highly unlikely to do so lest it set a precedent that undermines the Common Market.

So there is now a very real risk that an independent Scotland will either: have many, many more EU (in the form of Rest of the UK) students applying for places and falling within the strict quota system at great expense; or have to reintroduce fees for ALL Scottish and EU students.

pcvdriver said:

Previously the EU paid fees for non-domestic students (I.E. those not from the UK) No change there and continue to do so. UK government then sets fees for ALL UK students = UK students are deemed to be domestic students and not eligible for EU funding at home (UK) universities, are you still with me, or do I have to start using crayons and very BIG writing to make it easier?.

I've already explained how the EU does not pay the fees for EU students. But your second claim is also wrong. University fees are devolved to the Scottish Government and this is the system they have legislated for:

Non-EU international students: No legislation - universities free to set whatever fees they like and accept as many of these students as they wish (common with the situation in the Westminister

Scottish/EU students: Legislated for tuition fees of £1,820, which are to be paid by SAAS. The key legislation is The Education (Fees) (Scotland) Regulations 2011.

Rest of the UK students: Legislated to remove Rest of UK students from the aforementioned controlled system of fees and permit Scottish universities to set any level of fee as they see fit (most matching the £9,000 fees in England as expected). The key legislation here is The Student Fees (Specification) (Scotland) Order 2011.

It is 100% the Scottish Government who put in place a system that discriminates against students from the Rest of the UK.

Edited by ninja-lewis on Monday 21st April 00:11

[Gecko1978]

McWigglebum4th said:

Easy for you to say

You aren't about to see your life ruined by some nasty little aholes

Opinion polls are just that a sample of opinions. Facts on the other hand remain so regardless of opinion. Thus closer to the election as questions of currency job losses eu membership cross border taxs and check points get raised the silent majority of non mental voters will perk up vote no an will be well.

[barryrs]

University tuition fees are a direct result of labours higher education policy started in 97.

With 400k more students in higher education in order to manipulate employment figures (call me a cynic) has to be paid for somehow.

I finished uni in 2001 owing circa £8k which is small beans by current standards so I do have sympathy for today's graduates.

I suspect that it's not that the SNP support the alleged social mobility of higher education but that they have a large number of universities per head of population and only 28k home grown students.

Around 0.56% of the Scottish population attend uni whereas that is 0.83% in England. If the SNP saw an increase on par with England (another 13.5k students) I would be surprised if tuition fees were not considered.

[Funk]

ninja-lewis said:

pcvdriver said:

As far as Uni fees go.....can I just ask if you benefited from a free university place or not? (not that it matters in the great scheme of things). My position as regards fees is this - if you went to school in Scotland - Uni should be free, for ALL others = pay your fees.....that goes for EU/other international students (it should be noted that there are EU funding options available to EU students).
It was the Westminster Government (NOT HOLYROOD) that announced they would start setting fees for UK university students, and it was Holyrood's position that we (Scotland) could afford to pay for our own students. No racism - we just believe that education should be free for our citizens.

As for ugly policies - it was truly horrendous that Westminster should seek to deny those from poorer backgrounds, the chance to affordably advance to tertiary education. We in Scotland thought it so abhorrent, that we made the decision to find the funds for our own students.

No, you can't do that because EU law requires that you treat citizens of other EU countries exactly as you treat you own.

Just like the current rules that require a student be ordinarily resident in Scotland/ EU for three years, your Scottish School rule would have to be extended to all students who attend an EU school.

The Scottish Government can only discriminate against English students at present because the EU does not intervene where one part of a member state discriminates against another part of the same member state.

Eligible EU students apply to the Student Awards Agency for Scotland for their tuition fees to be paid. SAAS in turn is paid by the Scottish Government. There is no EU funding involved. The cost to the Scottish Government a few years ago was £75 million. That is why there is a strict cap on the number of Scottish and EU students that Scottish universities can accept. It has been known for Scottish students to be barred from places in Clearing because the university has already accepted its quota of Scottish/EU students. The places can only then go to Rest of UK students and non-EU students who pay tuition fees themselves (the Rest of the UK students take out a student loan as normal).

Now in the event of an independent Scotland, the Rest of the UK will be a separate EU member. The Scottish Government have a tenuous plan to continue the then otherwise unlawful discrimination by appealing to the EU on the grounds of special circumstances. However, the EU has never granted such an exception in the past and is highly unlikely to do so lest it set a precedent that undermines the Common Market.

So there is now a very real risk that an independent Scotland will either: have many, many more EU (in the form of Rest of the UK) students applying for places and falling within the strict quota system at great expense; or have to reintroduce fees for ALL Scottish and EU students.

Your post is so logical, clear and factual that I expect it to be roundly ignored by the Yessers.

The other factor you don't mention is this; in a post-No vote, how many English/Welsh/NI students might decide that following all the nastiness, Scotland isn't actually somewhere they'd like to go to study? All those ££££ failing to materialise could drastically undermine the economics and create a funding gap. Many big universities can only function because they can charge eye-watering amounts to wealthy foreign students who help to bankroll the rest.

Either way, Scotland comes out of this terribly. Wiggly - I can't imagine your frustration in watching a lemming-like exodus off a very large cliff. That the polls show a close call between yes and no must be so frustrating.

[Big Rod]

Gecko1978 said:

McWigglebum4th said:

Easy for you to say

You aren't about to see your life ruined by some nasty little aholes

Opinion polls are just that a sample of opinions. Facts on the other hand remain so regardless of opinion. Thus closer to the election as questions of currency job losses eu membership cross border taxs and check points get raised the silent majority of non mental voters will perk up vote no an will be well.

While it's disheartening, I do recall having worked in both Edinburgh and Glasgow city centres that 'polls' tend to be directed at people in Sauchiehall St, Argyle St and Princes St when the majority of the population that matter are working.

It ain't over 'til the fat boy dons his crown!