Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 5

[MintyChris]

Nick Grant said:

Any "No" would be good news for me

A big celebratory drink (or twelve) will be had after the No vote.

[A.J.M]

I got the issue 4 of YES paper through the door.

Also a leaflet from my local msp councillors, also saying to vote yes.

Wonder if them all being SNP people has anything to do with that.

Vote yes to save out NHS is the local claim.
Given how they are all useless tts, I'll not take their offer to heart.

The dog is on standby to read the paper after me.

[Gogoplata]

A.J.M said:

http://m.scotsman.com/news/health/nhs-scotland-s-p...

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/221705/resp...

Figures are
2007-08 £61.4m.
2008-09 £62.8m.
2009-10 £61.3m.
2010-11 £65m.
2011-12 £68.8m.
2012-13 £83.5m.
2013-14 £79.1m.

Which is £481.9m spent on private stuff...

Anyone got info on how much the rUK has spent on private care over the same period and able to work out if we are spending more or less per person on adding private care in.

Oh that's golden!

[E24man]

Gogoplata said:

A.J.M said:

http://m.scotsman.com/news/health/nhs-scotland-s-p...

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/221705/resp...

Figures are
2007-08 £61.4m.
2008-09 £62.8m.
2009-10 £61.3m.
2010-11 £65m.
2011-12 £68.8m.
2012-13 £83.5m.
2013-14 £79.1m.

Which is £481.9m spent on private stuff...

Anyone got info on how much the rUK has spent on private care over the same period and able to work out if we are spending more or less per person on adding private care in.

Oh that's golden!

So they have been spending (on average) an EXTRA 68.8 million pounds a year on a population of 5 million people? It seems that the NHS in Scotland are standard bearers for Salmond et all's Fiscal policies.

[Edinburger]

el stovey said:

I think a narrow no vote would be great for Scotland. Scotland will likely get more devolved powers and in return England will stop Scottish (and Welsh) MPs voting on English only issues.

The SNP will have given a referendum as promised, and everyone else can shut up and get on with it.

Yup, I agree.

[Wills2]

Edinburger said:

el stovey said:

I think a narrow no vote would be great for Scotland. Scotland will likely get more devolved powers and in return England will stop Scottish (and Welsh) MPs voting on English only issues.

The SNP will have given a referendum as promised, and everyone else can shut up and get on with it.

Yup, I agree.

Sounds sensible, but how many matters (that matter) are English only?

[Welshbeef]

E24man said:

So they have been spending (on average) an EXTRA 68.8 million pounds a year on a population of 5 million people? It seems that the NHS in Scotland are standard bearers for Salmond et all's Fiscal policies.

Is this extra all the OAP home care costs?

[ninja-lewis]

Welshbeef said:

E24man said:

So they have been spending (on average) an EXTRA 68.8 million pounds a year on a population of 5 million people? It seems that the NHS in Scotland are standard bearers for Salmond et all's Fiscal policies.

Is this extra all the OAP home care costs?

No, that comes out of the social work budgets via local authorities.

The figures quoted relate to NHS Scotland contracting out services to private hospitals, typically to cut waiting lists. Supposedly the Scottish Government oppose the kind of "privatisation" that is happening in England where NHS England is much more open about using the private sector to provide NHS care.

Basically it's the difference between regarding the national health service as "THE NHS, public sector provider of healthcare" and seeing it as the "a national health service of free at the point of need to all, not fussed who is actually providing it" (which is actually much closer to what Beveridge envisioned).

[A.J.M]

Included with my yes paper. All are my local msps, all are SNP party members and all are ste at their jobs.

I'm writing an email to take Alex to task over the private costs I've linked earlier today. If anyone wishes to add further, please feel free to read the leaflets and either reply here or send me a pm.

I can't believe the utter pish that's been printed and will get swallowed up as gospel.

[bigkeeko]

'Poorest pensioners in Europe'

Yep, they,ll be moving to Romania soon for a better liife.

You can hardly blame politicians for telling lies. The proletariat in general are gullible. I was speaking to a No voter that has now announced they are a Yes voter as they,ve read a 'leaflet' and listened to a Yes interview.

Says it all.

[Funk]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-in...

Thrust of the article:

• English oppose the sharing of the pound
• Want UK Govt to take 'hard line' with Scotland regardless of vote outcome
• Three quarters do not want a currency union
• If 'no', majority of English voters want cuts to Scottish public spending (Barnett)
• and banning of Scottish MPs voting on matters that only affect England

The backlash - regardless of the outcome - is already happening. FWIW, I agree with every point above. Scotland has opened a can of worms and loses either way.

[McWigglebum4th]

This is a deeply worrying development

we might lose the NO campaigns biggest asset

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/...

[HenryJM]

McWigglebum4th said:

This is a deeply worrying development

we might lose the NO campaigns biggest asset

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/...

Yes but

Salmond said:

The First Minister told a public meeting this week that he would “retire from politics tomorrow” if that provided a guarantee of a Yes vote

It doesn't so he won't.

[blinkythefish]

McWigglebum4th said:

This is a deeply worrying development

we might lose the NO campaigns biggest asset

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/...

News just in: "Man who would say anything to get independence, makes another statement to try to bolster independence!"

[Funk]

blinkythefish said:

McWigglebum4th said:

This is a deeply worrying development

we might lose the NO campaigns biggest asset

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/...

News just in: "Man who would say anything to get independence, makes another statement to try to bolster independence!"

Easy to make a compelling-sounding soundbite when you know you will NEVER have to make good on it.

And you can tell Salmond was lying anyway because his lips moved. What a cretin.

[Wrathalanche]

I was listening to a podcast yesterday, from June, where normal Iraqis were being asked about their daily lives at the moment, as they become more and more of a human spectacle on our TV news. What struck me was how much their feelings could be compared to what presumably is being felt across the UK just now. And before anyone jumps on me for being over dramatic - thats because they were not particularly vocal about their concerns for their own safety in a war-torn country, but actually concerned about the future of Iraq as it threatens to split into as many as 3 seperate religious states.

For those interested, it was This American Life Episode 529, at around 51 mins in ( link here)

I challenge anyone with the Scot's referendum on their mind to listen to it and not draw parallels. Especially when there is mention of one state swanning off with all the oil territories. I was pretty shocked at how I could relate so much with a man in Iraq right now.

Anyways. Good listening - probably 15-20 minutes or so.

Edited by Wrathalanche on Wednesday 20th August 09:33

[skyrover]

el stovey said:

I think a narrow no vote would be great for Scotland. Scotland will likely get more devolved powers and in return England will stop Scottish (and Welsh) MPs voting on English only issues.

The SNP will have given a referendum as promised, and everyone else can shut up and get on with it.

[toppstuff]

I am coming to the conclusion that nationalism is a curse of the modern world at the moment.

These things go in cycles. Right now we are in a cycle where nationalism is on the rise - even from privileged, fat parts of the world with frankly little to complain about.

Nationalism is the opposite to what I think is needed. The risks and uncertainties of the world these days are best faced through cooperation and working together.

Nationalism represents a school of thought that celebrates division. It encourages people to highlight the differences they have between each other, rather than focus on what we all have in common.

Nationalism is ugly and divisive. It usually fails too. Ultimately, countries and peoples with common aims tend to group together.

Will be glad when this is all over. Salmond is a misguided, puffed-up, egotistical wee man. Thankfully this will soon be over.

[blinkythefish]

toppstuff said:

I am coming to the conclusion that nationalism is a curse of the modern world at the moment.

These things go in cycles. Right now we are in a cycle where nationalism is on the rise - even from privileged, fat parts of the world with frankly little to complain about.

Nationalism is the opposite to what I think is needed. The risks and uncertainties of the world these days are best faced through cooperation and working together.

Nationalism represents a school of thought that celebrates division. It encourages people to highlight the differences they have between each other, rather than focus on what we all have in common.

Nationalism is ugly and divisive. It usually fails too. Ultimately, countries and peoples with common aims tend to group together.

Will be glad when this is all over. Salmond is a misguided, puffed-up, egotistical wee man. Thankfully this will soon be over.

Someone will be along in a minute to explain the Scottish Nationalism is a nice warm fluffy sort of "civic nationalism" and is in no way based on the belief that we(that's the collective, Scotland acting as one unit because Nationalist do love to speak on my behalf, We) are somehow magically more moral, more productive and more trustworthy(esp our politicians) than our counterparts over the border(even the ones from Scotland)....... Remember, the important bit is the line across the map - the side you are standing on determines just how good a person you are.

[ralphrj]

toppstuff said:

I am coming to the conclusion that nationalism is a curse of the modern world at the moment.

Historically nationalism has always gained popularity during periods of economic hardship. People don't like to believe that they played a part in creating the situation they find themselves in and are when someone stands up and says "Don't worry. It isn't your fault. It is the <insert another group of people> fault." it appeals to a lot of people.

For example:

1930s Germany - "Our problems are caused by the Jews."

SNP - "Our problems are caused by the English."

UKIP - "Our problems are caused by immigrants."


You could pick holes in all of those statements but they will always be popular with a significant chunk of the population who would rather try and shift the blame on to someone else rather than accept their own culpability.