Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 5

[anonymous-user]

I think Salmond did brilliantly. I've never wanted a Yes vote more.

[NoNeed]

Edinburger said:

I completely understand your point but there is no reason for and no precedent for voters in rUK having a vote in this referendum.

There should be a vote on any agreed settlement.

[Funk]

Edinburger said:

The fact is that from 19th Sep we have either a new nation to form or an existing country to improve and everyone needs to move on from the pre 18th Sep world.

No. You don't get off that easily after what's been said about the English.

We won't forget this for a long time. Either way, Scotland has been pretty unpleasant and nasty and that's going to have repercussions. In fact, it already is.

Things won't be the same for Scotland after the 18th no matter what the outcome is. You don't get to just pretend nothing happened I'm afraid.

NoNeed said:

Edinburger said:

I completely understand your point but there is no reason for and no precedent for voters in rUK having a vote in this referendum.

There should be a vote on any agreed settlement.

Agreed. It would be the right thing to do democratically. Why should we have no say in such a massive change to the status quo, one that will no doubt incur huge costs on our side?

Edited by Funk on Tuesday 26th August 08:36

[NoNeed]

Trollburger said:

So:

a) I've not been on PH for a few days so let me read that Swinney article and get back to you (you do mean John Swinney, yes?).
b) I didn't "fib" for 14 weeks - as you know perfectly well, a discussion took place and I said I had supplementary information/evidence at home and said I'd share it when I was home, however, I then realised it was under NDA and was unable to share it, never mind on a public forum.
c) Therefore there was no lie.
d) And I wasn't banned.

Despite your distorted view of the world suggesting I'm this big fat liar and NoNuts hilariously calling me a troll every five minutes, the Mods clearly don't agree with you two as I've never been banned and am obviously behaving within the rules of the forums.

End of.

Just to clarify. You DID lie, you said you had evidence of parliamentary questions and would provide it when you got home.

That was a lie told by you and the reason you was called a troll and as you are back to insults and trolling..............

[BigsimonY]

Funk said:

Edinburger said:

The fact is that from 19th Sep we have either a new nation to form or an existing country to improve and everyone needs to move on from the pre 18th Sep world.

No. You don't get off that really after what's been said about the English.

We won't forget this for a long time. Either way, Scotland has been pretty unpleasant and nasty and that's going to have repercussions. In fact, it already is.

Things won't be the same for Scotland after the 18th no matter what the outcome is. You don't get to just pretend nothing happened I'm afraid.

NoNeed said:

Edinburger said:

I completely understand your point but there is no reason for and no precedent for voters in rUK having a vote in this referendum.

There should be a vote on any agreed settlement.

Agreed. It would be the right thing to do democratically. Why should we have no say in such a massive change to the status quo, one that will no doubt incur huge costs on our side?

Edited by Funk on Tuesday 26th August 08:14

That's a bit unfair. Its only been the yes camp who have been unpleasant, both to the English AND anyone in Scotland who dared say "I'm a no voter". To tar us all is playing into the yesers hands.

[NoNeed]

BigsimonY said:

Funk said:

Edinburger said:

The fact is that from 19th Sep we have either a new nation to form or an existing country to improve and everyone needs to move on from the pre 18th Sep world.

No. You don't get off that really after what's been said about the English.

We won't forget this for a long time. Either way, Scotland has been pretty unpleasant and nasty and that's going to have repercussions. In fact, it already is.

Things won't be the same for Scotland after the 18th no matter what the outcome is. You don't get to just pretend nothing happened I'm afraid.

NoNeed said:

Edinburger said:

I completely understand your point but there is no reason for and no precedent for voters in rUK having a vote in this referendum.

There should be a vote on any agreed settlement.

Agreed. It would be the right thing to do democratically. Why should we have no say in such a massive change to the status quo, one that will no doubt incur huge costs on our side?

Edited by Funk on Tuesday 26th August 08:14

That's a bit unfair. Its only been the yes camp who have been unpleasant, both to the English AND anyone in Scotland who dared say "I'm a no voter". To tar us all is playing into the yesers hands.

King Eck says he wants a mandate to negotiate a currency union, surely the nats would want the UK government to be given the same mandate and not act in an unfair unilateral manner.

[a311]

I’ve read this thread with interest for many months but don‘t think I’ve ever contributed. I’m English with a Scottish born wife and live 30 minutes from the Scottish border. The OH’s side of the family are all up in Scotland some in Glasgow the rest in Argyll. I’ve watched the campaign, various documentaries, and the two Salmond/Darling debates with interest. Last nights debate was shocker, real base level stuff, Glen Campbell who should have interjected on at least 20 occasions when it decended into a slanging match. The audience also seemed very biased, unless it was a case of the No voters not wanting to make them overly known. Salmond should have been buried last night, instead he seems to have won a victory which will further fuel the misguided Yes campaign. It wound me up that much last night to the extent, if it weren’t for having so many family members living up there with the amount of people cheering Salmond on, to start thinking you know what you’ll deserve everything you get…….

The whole campaign has been a circus act, and last night every time he walked from behind his stand…. He managed to go the whole debate without answering a question and the Yes camp saw it as a victory- this is what you’re dealing with. Salmond brought it down to a slanging match, not allowing Darling to state and make technical points and if people can’t see through that then good luck to you. The people of Scotland deserve better that a childish squabble. The utopia Salmond promises cannot be paid for with Scotland's resources. Oil seems to be the answer to everything, what if you don’t have as much as you think you do? WE HAVE MORE, what if you don’t? WE HAVE MORE, what happens when it finally runs out? WE HAVE MORE-plus we’ll explore the Clyde once trident is gone…… On Trident it got me thinking of Scotland’s nuclear industry, they’ll not have any new stations but what about the retuired stations and Dounreay? Will they expect the rUK to take their spent fuel and pay to decommission the old sites?

Was nice to know if Salmond doesn’t get his way on the currency union that they’ll default on their share of the debt, that sends a good message to the rest of the world….. I believe the principal arguments are wrong. Independence or Union is simple ; independence means independence from everything that is in a United Kingdom (currency etc.)Union means union with everything (Prescription charges, tuition fess) that is in a UK. Cherry picking on both sides......


Again many of the issues were not discussed, Pensions, Education, Mortgage rates in an independent Scotland. It was in fact more of the same, shouting at each other.

[Cobnapint]

Welshbeef said:

Its probably better for the No campaign to have faired worse in the second debate (opinion wise) as it will get even more No voters out to vote rather than be complacent.

It's probably not too. A fair few of the undecided (who's IQ must be questioned in the first place if they can't already see that a Yes would be disastrous for Scotland) may well have been swayed by Darlings 'Scotland could use the pound' admission, even if WE knew what he meant, it seems a large proportion of the Scots didn't.

Dangerous times.

[McWigglebum4th]

But what about the poverty in scotland

oh we spent that money giving people like ME cheaper council tax and free prescriptions

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/...

Want to bang on about fairness?

[CambsBill]

Can't disagree with the overwhelming sentiment here that is was an ill-mannered shouting match last night, with neither side looking anything remotely statesman-like and Salmond only 'winning' by virtue of shouting more often and louder.

A shame Darling didn't shoot down the Norway argument once & for all by pointing out that Norway has some of the highest taxes and highest cost of living (i.e. the price of beer) on the planet. Also, why not challenge Salmond to explain how he actually planned to spend his oil bonanza on lower taxes, higher public spending AND a wealth fund

Say what you like about Salmond's coming out from behind the lectern but it was a very clever ploy - it meant that Darling couldn't interrupt him without talking to the back of his head (which he could easily ignore), whilst his own constant barracking meant that most of what Darling said couldn't be heard.

[Cobnapint]

Edinburger said:

///ajd said:

A lot of Nats are frothing about Alex asking if Darling would support a currency union after Yes - seemingly to think it is a clever or revealing question as Darling stumbled to answer. Of course he stumbles to answer the question "which of these st options is your favourite?". Err, but they are all st, so none, vote No for crying out loud!

Then Alex jumped on "we can use the pound" - ah, ah, ah! Darling says we can use the pound, knowing full well he only meant in the panama/financial suicide way.

It is pathetic.

At one point I found myself wanting a Yes vote.

Yip, that was a cringe-worthy moment.

It was indeed a cringe-worthy moment, but it'll be a cringe-worthy moment that some will no doubt fall for and tip them towards voting Yes.

The other CWM was Salmond's lectern-waltz, the one YOU fell for when you described it as 'really good'. Not just 'good', but 'really good'.

You have to wonder...

Edited by Cobnapint on Tuesday 26th August 09:09

[Mermaid]

CambsBill said:

..

Say what you like about Salmond's coming out from behind the lectern but it was a very clever ploy - it meant that Darling couldn't interrupt him without talking to the back of his head (which he could easily ignore), whilst his own constant barracking meant that most of what Darling said couldn't be heard.

Presentation matters, Darling should have seen through that and not stayed behind the lectern and look all formal.

[NoNeed]

Cobnapint said:

It was indeed a cringe-worthy moment, but it'll be a cringe-worthy moment that some will no doubt fall for and tip them towards voting Yes.

The other CWM was Salmond's lectern-waltz, the one YOU fell for when you described it as 'really good'. Not just 'good', but 'really good'.

You have to wonder...

Like the

Actually I think it would put people off voting yes. It helped him win the debate for reasons others have mentioned but will be seen akin to queue jumping, pushing in or starting early in a race, definitely unsporting.


Darling came across as the clever geeky one that got bullied and that wont hurt him either in the minds of the public.


I don't think that debate will alter voting intentions one iota, it will be interesting to see the stats.

[toppstuff]

Whatever the outcome, a minority of Scottish people have damaged their country in recent months.

The tragedy is that they don't even see it.

[A.J.M]

Last nights shambolic effort has seen a few undecided move to yes from people I know on fb.

It was a total mess from what I've read and heard on the radio.

I used to think it would be a no vote, I'm worried enough people will be fooled by last night to tip it...

[Cobnapint]

A.J.M said:

Last nights shambolic effort has seen a few undecided move to yes from people I know on fb.

It was a total mess from what I've read and heard on the radio.

I used to think it would be a no vote, I'm worried enough people will be fooled by last night to tip it...

Same here.

Added to that you have the very timely (for First Haggis) feel good factor from the Commonwealth games (because it's been proven you know, if you can hold a 10 day athletics meeting - you can do anything), and the Scottish-and-proud Edinburgh tattoo. Could all add up to a right old mess.

[NoNeed]

A.J.M said:

Last nights shambolic effort has seen a few undecided move to yes from people I know on fb.

It was a total mess from what I've read and heard on the radio.

I used to think it would be a no vote, I'm worried enough people will be fooled by last night to tip it...

People have been pretending to move from no to yes since this referendum thing started I think they think it will encourage others to do the same.

most of the prominant Nats on here have stated that at some point they were no and despite all these moving from no to yes the stats/polls have remained fairly constant.



ETA I would love to see a Facebook page from a person posting vote no/no thanks/better together stuff for the last two years suddenly post they will vote yes.

Edited by NoNeed on Tuesday 26th August 09:22

[Cobnapint]

Guam said:

AS Epitomised for many why some of us south of the Border would be happy for a yes and would be very comfortable to wave the Brethren bye bye.

The debate was everything that is wrong with the relationship with Scotland, get it done and win it, then let us move on. Just dont imagine for one nano second that you will ever get back into a Union, voting yes is a one way street I am afraid, once yer oot yer oot!

Here here.

Salmond and his wonderous SNP are soley responsible for the legacy of ill-feeling that all this is going to leave behind - both sides of the border - Yes OR No.

[a311]

toppstuff said:

Whatever the outcome, a minority of Scottish people have damaged their country in recent months.

The tragedy is that they don't even see it.

I’d agree with this, touched on last night in the ‘debate’ but I’m of the opinion that the whole thing has been very divisive both internally and the rest of the UK and will take a lot of time to heal those wounds. Driving up to visit the in-laws at the weekend I’d say the Yes banners flags etc are easily in the majority but saw quite a few ‘No thanks’ signs and posters around that weren’t there on my previous trip.

[A.J.M]

The people I speak of were totally uninterested in it, to the point of asking others what way should they vote.

Others are die hard yes voters, spouting the same tripe and lies over again.
You try to show otherwise and get drowned out by bullst.

Still, I shouldn't need a working visa to move to England if I get out quickly enough... Should I?