Cyril Smith - the revellations
Discussion
one of the angles to be considered is that of the liberal ideas of the times. Retrospectively - with the 70's DJ super-nonce trials a.k.a. Yewtree - we can see the era for what it was; deeply sexist.
However, it's worth remembering that it is clear some of those promoting sexual liberty and tolerance were also campaigning for or very close to the fringes of the idea that the age of consent was somehow wrong.
However, it's worth remembering that it is clear some of those promoting sexual liberty and tolerance were also campaigning for or very close to the fringes of the idea that the age of consent was somehow wrong.
That's right Derek, I probably did. There wasn't the necessity then to watch every 'p' and 'q', people could have open conversations without the need to think about phoney litigators scrambling to be the most offended. In spite of so-called 'more enlightened' times now prevailing, I sometimes wonder whether all change is actually progress when horrific activities seem to have increased and become in many cases forgivable. Like the MP who professes he believes in redemption now that he is in the spotlight.
Digga said:
otally.
One would hope there is consensus that these allegations are no longer in the realms of conspiracy fantasy and that there is now a case for rigorous and thorough investigation at the highest level.
Agreed.One would hope there is consensus that these allegations are no longer in the realms of conspiracy fantasy and that there is now a case for rigorous and thorough investigation at the highest level.
The whole point is who can be trusted to impartially oversee any such investigation without being nobbled by those members of the great and the good who are likely to be identified as being involved in these horror stories?
longshot said:
Did these poor lads accidentally die while being sexually abused or did the abusers intend then to die.
I know the awful outcome is the same but it casts a completely different light on things.
Where did these lads come from? Why weren't they missed?
Some apparently yes.I know the awful outcome is the same but it casts a completely different light on things.
Where did these lads come from? Why weren't they missed?
If you can bear (and in a way I do not suggest you do) to read/watch some of the Elm Guest House evidence, it does seem clear that vulnerable boys in care were targeted and groomed - some of them had literally no one to miss them. Poor sods.
King 
said:
said:longshot said:
Did these poor lads accidentally die while being sexually abused or did the abusers intend then to die.
I know the awful outcome is the same but it casts a completely different light on things.
You seem to imply that one of these scenarios is somehow less blameworthy..?I know the awful outcome is the same but it casts a completely different light on things.
To abuse a lad in some way to the point that he dies is horrific but to go out one night knowing that you are going to abuse a lad until he dies is on a whole new level.
Also, if a lad died and there were a few people there, you could see how they may be prepared to cover it up if they thought it was an accident but attend when they knew he was going to die that night is again a whole new level.
I suppose what I am saying is that we could be dealing with some horrendous depraved individuals here but we could be dealing with some seriously dangerous monsters.
mail said:
A former cabinet minister was photographed with a naked boy in the sauna of a guesthouse at the centre of historic child sex abuse allegations, an MP has said.
Tory Zac Goldsmith claimed that a child protection campaigner had been told by one of the owners of the Elm Guest House, Carol Kasir, that she had photographs of 'establishment figures' at the hotel where boys in care had been 'brought in for sex'.
But the evidence, along with logbooks, names, times, dates and photographs of Mrs Kasir's customers simply disappeared after a 1982 police raid on the guesthouse.
Mr Goldsmith said evidence from 12 boys alleging abuse had also 'evaporated' and Mrs Kasir and her husband Haroon were eventually given suspended sentences for 'running a disorderly house'.
Mrs Kasir then died a few years later in 'very odd circumstances', he said.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2852189/Ex-cabinet-minister-photographed-sauna-naked-boy-notorious-guest-house-children-brought-sex-MP-tells-Parliament.htmlTory Zac Goldsmith claimed that a child protection campaigner had been told by one of the owners of the Elm Guest House, Carol Kasir, that she had photographs of 'establishment figures' at the hotel where boys in care had been 'brought in for sex'.
But the evidence, along with logbooks, names, times, dates and photographs of Mrs Kasir's customers simply disappeared after a 1982 police raid on the guesthouse.
Mr Goldsmith said evidence from 12 boys alleging abuse had also 'evaporated' and Mrs Kasir and her husband Haroon were eventually given suspended sentences for 'running a disorderly house'.
Mrs Kasir then died a few years later in 'very odd circumstances', he said.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11...
Sir Edward Garnier 'tried to stop Labour MP challenging Lord Brittan over child abuse claims'
Simon Danczuk says former Conservative Solicitor General tackled him on the evening before he was due to give evidence to Home Affairs select committee
One of David Cameron’s former top legal advisers tried to stop a Labour MP "challenging" Lord Brittan of Spennithorne over child abuse allegations in the Houses of Parliament, it has been claimed.
Simon Danczuk said Sir Edward Garnier, who was made Solicitor General by the Prime Minister in May 2010, tackled him on the evening before he was due to give evidence to the Home Affairs select committee in the summer...
Sir Edward Garnier 'tried to stop Labour MP challenging Lord Brittan over child abuse claims'
Simon Danczuk says former Conservative Solicitor General tackled him on the evening before he was due to give evidence to Home Affairs select committee
One of David Cameron’s former top legal advisers tried to stop a Labour MP "challenging" Lord Brittan of Spennithorne over child abuse allegations in the Houses of Parliament, it has been claimed.
Simon Danczuk said Sir Edward Garnier, who was made Solicitor General by the Prime Minister in May 2010, tackled him on the evening before he was due to give evidence to the Home Affairs select committee in the summer...
It does not surprise me in the least that there are those still involved in politics today who have a vested interest in shutting this story down. That there are two people here, from different parts of the house, both effectively alleging this, in my mind, is proof that there is very probably something amiss and that there may well be a case to answer.
Again, we see the political elite acting in a way which is clearly not in the interests of the public. There can be no plausible national security argument, no benign motive for attempts to scupper any thorough and public investigation into the issue.
Again, we see the political elite acting in a way which is clearly not in the interests of the public. There can be no plausible national security argument, no benign motive for attempts to scupper any thorough and public investigation into the issue.
Digga said:
It does not surprise me in the least that there are those still involved in politics today who have a vested interest in shutting this story down. That there are two people here, from different parts of the house, both effectively alleging this, in my mind, is proof that there is very probably something amiss and that there may well be a case to answer.
Again, we see the political elite acting in a way which is clearly not in the interests of the public. There can be no plausible national security argument, no benign motive for attempts to scupper any thorough and public investigation into the issue.
Yes - I'm also of the opinion that there are people in power preventing this from getting a proper airing. Those poor kids who were in the care system specifically as they needed looking after were being abused by the most important people in the land. Again, we see the political elite acting in a way which is clearly not in the interests of the public. There can be no plausible national security argument, no benign motive for attempts to scupper any thorough and public investigation into the issue.
I really can't get my head around it.
Digga said:
It does not surprise me in the least that there are those still involved in politics today who have a vested interest in shutting this story down. That there are two people here, from different parts of the house, both effectively alleging this, in my mind, is proof that there is very probably something amiss and that there may well be a case to answer.
Again, we see the political elite acting in a way which is clearly not in the interests of the public. There can be no plausible national security argument, no benign motive for attempts to scupper any thorough and public investigation into the issue.
Assuming there are skeletons in the cupboards of both the major parties, you can see why both moves would be made to quash evidence.Again, we see the political elite acting in a way which is clearly not in the interests of the public. There can be no plausible national security argument, no benign motive for attempts to scupper any thorough and public investigation into the issue.
However, I think of all parties the Cons have the most to lose should anything come out. Firstly, I think it's fairly unlikely that anyone significant from the Blair years will be found out. By that time the level of scrutiny was simply too much for someone to get away with it. Blair's term coincided with the arrival of ferocious red top journalism, the internet and 24 hours news, it would have been nigh on impossible to cover up a minister's indiscretions. Prior to that, Labour weren't in government so the discovery of wrongdoing on the front bench would be a huge embarrassment but not too damaging to the party itself - it would be interpreted more as a personal flaw, something unrelated to party politics. Even if a coverup was to be exposed it would reflect more on those involved than the party as a whole.
The 80's and early 90's, on the other hand, look like the dark ages in comparison. Child sex crime wasn't much on the public radar and news outlets were easier to control. If it turns out that one of Thatcher's ministers was implicated in something as serious as is being suggested, it may serve to completely undermine the record a government so deeply associated with 'Law and Order'. If there was the slightest whiff of someone in Thatcher's cabinet being implicated in crime and a subsequent cover up, it could destroy the reputation of the Conservative Party and utterly undermine anyone claiming to be a Thatcherite...
The Major years fall somewhere between the two situations above. But seeing as how most conservatives now distance themselves from anything to do with Major, I suspect that any similar revelations would do less harm to the party now. It's Thatcher's iconic status that generates the greatest risk.
Frankly, as with Rotherham and other recent cases, I really don't care who was involved, I just expect it to be dealt with properly. As far as I am concerned, the whole of politics is tarnished by the obvious involvement on key figures and there is a clear need to draw a definitive line under the whole business. Sweeping it under the carpet is no longer an option, no matter who would like to think so.
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