Who is bogging off after the YES vote?

[Dryce]

ViperPict said:

Yes but as long as the unionists are also. Because they are far from objective and devoid of emotion on the issue...

Well there we have a problem.

You clearly think you can speak for one side of this campaign.

I'm afraid I can't make any claim to speak for either.

[ViperPict]

Dryce said:

ViperPict said:

Yes but as long as the unionists are also. Because they are far from objective and devoid of emotion on the issue...

Well there we have a problem.

You clearly think you can speak for one side of this campaign.

I'm afraid I can't make any claim to speak for either.

To be honest, my initial 'We'll' was meant to be 'Well' (autocorrect issue!).

[simoid]

simoid said:

What do I "butter up" as certain that isn't?

Well, 'Pict?

[footsoldier]

The EU issue is a non-issue.

The EU's founding principles are to emcourge and accpet any European country that cam demostrate respect for its values:

The Union is founded on the values of respect for human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights, including the rights of persons belonging to minorities. These values are common to the Member States in a society in which pluralism, non-discrimination, tolerance, justice, solidarity and equality between women and men prevail.

The Copenhagen criteria are in addition to this, but don't seem insurmountable....based as they are around democracy, rule of law and human rights. In addition, the EU has a policy of enlargement, not to mention the economic benefits of having Scotland on-board.

After the Yes vote, there is an 18month period before Independence Day. All negotiations will take place within that period. The most likely outcome is that Scotland will be in the EU through the UK membership until Independence Day -1, and will then take up its own EU membership the following day. It will never be "out"

Bear in mind that the latest Euro polls have UKiP in front, so there may be kor chance of a Euro exit by 2016 after a no vote - whether we like it or not!

[simoid]

footsoldier said:

Bear in mind that the latest Euro polls have UKiP in front, so there may be kor chance of a Euro exit by 2016 after a no vote - whether we like it or not!

So you think that Scotland (as part of the UK) will be negotiating to enter the EU while the UK is making its way out?

That'll be interesting.

[cozmcrae]

I'm leaving for non-independence reasons. The only thing that might entice me back would be a YES vote. I'm fed up with the state this country is currently in with all the food banks and poverty.

[simoid]

cozmcrae said:

I'm leaving for non-independence reasons. The only thing that might entice me back would be a YES vote. I'm fed up with the state this country is currently in with all the food banks and poverty.

Should you have included a winky face there somewhere?

[ViperPict]

simoid said:

simoid said:

What do I "butter up" as certain that isn't?

Well, 'Pict?

I'll refer you to the 'other' thread... One of the many editions of it... Same old unionist rhetoric going round and round for 2 years now!

[simoid]

ViperPict said:

simoid said:

simoid said:

What do I "butter up" as certain that isn't?

Well, 'Pict?

I'll refer you to the 'other' thread... One of the many editions of it... Same old unionist rhetoric going round and round for 2 years now!

Third chance, try not to look a tool this time:

What do I claim is certain, but isn't?

[cozmcrae]

simoid said:

Should you have included a winky face there somewhere?

No. I've wanted to leave Scotland for years. Why people would happily remain being unfairly represented is beyond me. If there is a NO vote, I have no interest in returning to this neglected country.

[simoid]

cozmcrae said:

No. I've wanted to leave Scotland for years. Why people would happily remain being unfairly represented is beyond me. If there is a NO vote, I have no interest in returning to this neglected country.

I know. It's a great shame that there's an SNP majority in Holyrood, despite the fact they won only 44% of the vote, but st happens.

Mind you, at least we've got the Scottish Parliament to run all those devolved issues like education, NHS, transport, police, etc.


Oops, almost forgot to mention that for most of my living memory we've had a Labour UK government that we voted in, with Scottish cabinet ministers all over the shop, who presided over growing inequalities. And now the UK isn't ruled by a Tory majority because of Scotland's votes.

Some stuff is ste, in the main I think Scotland is a brilliant country.

I've said it before, Scotland is on 18 or 19 for me.

Stick or twist?

I'd be sticking.

Edited by simoid on Sunday 20th April 22:20

[cozmcrae]

simoid said:

I've said it before, Scotland is on 18 or 19 for me.

Edited by simoid on Sunday 20th April 22:20

I don't understand what you mean by this.

I'm not interested in having a completely different country controlling where I live, its moronic to me. Ever since I was a little boy I've wondered why Westminster was never really interested in Scotland (or even the North) and the news was always broadcasting English issues whilst Scottish problems like fuel poverty were never even mentioned. Also however much I hate the fact we are being ruled by a government we did not vote for and simply did not have a choice over, this isn't about labour vs conservative, its about having a Scottish government for Scotland. You be fine with how you live just now but its just not for me so I'm bailing.

[simoid]

cozmcrae said:

I don't understand what you mean by this.

I'm not interested in having a completely different country controlling where I live, its moronic to me. Ever since I was a little boy I've wondered why Westminster was never really interested in Scotland (or even the North) and the news was always broadcasting English issues whilst Scottish problems like fuel poverty were never even mentioned. Also however much I hate the fact we are being ruled by a government we did not vote for and simply did not have a choice over, this isn't about labour vs conservative, its about having a Scottish government for Scotland. You be fine with how you live just now but its just not for me so I'm bailing.

I'm suggesting that if life were a game of pontoon/blackjack/21, I'd evaluate Scotland's present hand at about 18 or 19. Voting Yes is a twist/'hit me'; No is stick.

If you're not interested in having a completely different country controlling where you live, you'll not be wanting a currency union then?

News - you wot m8? There's Scottish news and UK news. Don't watch the UK news if you don't like it people who live in Fort William probably complain about the news being all Edinburgh and Glasgow - what that's got to do with splitting a country up I'll never know.

As I've said, we have a Scottish government at present which runs most stuff, a growing economy, the most people ever employed in Scotland, increasing tax-free personal allowance, more and more people paying the highest rate of tax, the somewhat incredible UK stat that 1% of the population pay 30% of income tax...

Free education, free loads of stuff, investment all over the place, our Scottish government, all the while being part of the larger entity that is the UK so we club together on the biggest stuff and enjoy the advantages of economies of scale, having our own currency, central bank, etc.

Please, don't fk it up.

[Dryce]

cozmcrae said:

I'm not interested in having a completely different country controlling where I live, its moronic to me. Ever since I was a little boy I've wondered why Westminster was never really interested in Scotland (or even the North) and the news was always broadcasting English issues whilst Scottish problems like fuel poverty were never even mentioned.

Do you think that Holyrood will be any more interested in Campbeltown or Glasgow or Ullapool?

cozmcrae said:

Also however much I hate the fact we are being ruled by a government we did not vote for and simply did not have a choice over, this isn't about labour vs conservative, its about having a Scottish government for Scotland.

But the same can be said about the SNP at Holyrood. A majority didn't vote for them either. (And somewhat ironically that's with a voting system that is perhaps a bit more fair).

Ultimately it's as likely that an independent Scottish government would not be the result of a majority vote.

I think it's maybe worth bringing to mind "Animal Farm" - while not applicable in terms of actual politics - it's rather poignant that the revolution ends up pretty much with the way things started but different masters.

[simoid]

Dryce said:

I think it's maybe worth bringing to mind "Animal Farm" - while not applicable in terms of actual politics - it's rather poignant that the revolution ends up pretty much with the way things started but different masters.

I agree.

A yes vote will either end up with moaners moaning at:

the same people for different reasons (Westminster setting our budgets)
different people for the same reasons (EU government we didn't vote for).

We don't know how good we've got it.

[cozmcrae]

simoid said:

I'm suggesting that if life were a game of pontoon/blackjack/21, I'd evaluate Scotland's present hand at about 18 or 19. Voting Yes is a twist/'hit me'; No is stick.

If you're not interested in having a completely different country controlling where you live, you'll not be wanting a currency union then?

News - you wot m8? There's Scottish news and UK news. Don't watch the UK news if you don't like it people who live in Fort William probably complain about the news being all Edinburgh and Glasgow - what that's got to do with splitting a country up I'll never know.

As I've said, we have a Scottish government at present which runs most stuff, a growing economy, the most people ever employed in Scotland, increasing tax-free personal allowance, more and more people paying the highest rate of tax, the somewhat incredible UK stat that 1% of the population pay 30% of income tax...

There is no way Scotland is an 18 or 19. Its a 13 tops in its current state. Ultimately we do not have a choice over a currency union because even if we didn't stick with the pound then it would be the Euro which we would also have no say over. I'm mentioning the news because I noticed that as a small boy, no older than 8, that there was loads of English news each day but literally a 10 minute segment each night for Scottish news. It wasn't just the news, it was all sorts of media like I knew that England won the world cup in 1966 before I knew my mums birthday because every few years the TV scream this nonsense at you that not a single Scottish person was interested in. That may seem trivial but its not just the big things like austerity and privatisation that effect us, its also the little things that we have no control or say over like if Andy Murry or Chris Hoy fked up then they are Scottish but when they win they are British yet it never seems to be the case when an English athlete loses, they are always British. Aberdeen has a ridiculous amount of of high tax band workers yet they don't have a proper road network and no public transport options other than a really poor bus service so unless you can walk or cycle to work then you have to endure the ridiculous commute times (which has been an issue since the 70s). Life might be fine for you but I can't deal with so many things that will just not change if there isn't a YES vote. I've said my piece, I'm sure everyone will disagree but regardless so I'm done.

[simoid]

cozmcrae said:

There is no way Scotland is an 18 or 19. Its a 13 tops in its current state. Ultimately we do not have a choice over a currency union because even if we didn't stick with the pound then it would be the Euro which we would also have no say over. I'm mentioning the news because I noticed that as a small boy, no older than 8, that there was loads of English news each day but literally a 10 minute segment each night for Scottish news. It wasn't just the news, it was all sorts of media like I knew that England won the world cup in 1966 before I knew my mums birthday because every few years the TV scream this nonsense at you that not a single Scottish person was interested in. That may seem trivial but its not just the big things like austerity and privatisation that effect us, its also the little things that we have no control or say over like if Andy Murry or Chris Hoy fked up then they are Scottish but when they win they are British yet it never seems to be the case when an English athlete loses, they are always British. Aberdeen has a ridiculous amount of of high tax band workers yet they don't have a proper road network and no public transport options other than a really poor bus service so unless you can walk or cycle to work then you have to endure the ridiculous commute times (which has been an issue since the 70s). Life might be fine for you but I can't deal with so many things that will just not change if there isn't a YES vote. I've said my piece, I'm sure everyone will disagree but regardless so I'm done.

I really cannot believe you are moaning about the news content 50 years ago! If you can't find hundreds of Scottish news today there's something wrong - there's STV news at 6 then the BBC news at 630 every night.

I'm sorry you feel Scotland is so ste you have to leave. I would suggest the problems might be more with you and your views than your country, but that might be unfair.

Anyway who is responsible for the transport in Aberdeen? It's certainly not anyone in England. It's been Holyrood for all of this century and some of the last, and the public transport I assume is probably the cooncil (stand to be corrected).

In fact, have they not being trying to get the go-ahead for a bypass for years? I don't know much about Aberdeen I'm afraid, but I know the English have nothing to do with it.

So you're complaints are not remotely valid in my opinion, since they're nothing to do with yes/no.

Good luck with the emigration, I hope you find your next country more palatable

[gwm]

Cozmcrae sums up a lot of Yes voters. Even though he says he's bailing Scotland altogether. So unhappy with their lot and disillusioned, that they see the independence vote as a chance for real change. They don't want to accept any hard stats or independent opinion, as it pisses on their only avenue for getting the change they so desperately want.

[Dryce]

cozmcrae said:

I'm mentioning the news because I noticed that as a small boy, no older than 8, that there was loads of English news each day but literally a 10 minute segment each night for Scottish news. It wasn't just the news, it was all sorts of media like I knew that England won the world cup in 1966 before I knew my mums birthday because every few years the TV scream this nonsense at you that not a single Scottish person was interested in.

It would have been British news. And in most countries national news is dominated by the region that contains the capital.

I've seen the same complaint raised by people outside the central belt in Scotland about Scottish news.

As for the football - much as it irks the answer is to get over it. One of the stupidities of the UK is that the separate sporting establishments like the football leagues were setup. It's fundamentally divisive.

cozmcrae said:

Aberdeen has a ridiculous amount of of high tax band workers yet they don't have a proper road network and no public transport options other than a really poor bus service so unless you can walk or cycle to work then you have to endure the ridiculous commute times (which has been an issue since the 70s). Life might be fine for you but I can't deal with so many things that will just not change if there isn't a YES vote.

This won't change and may get worse. Holyrood already focuses primarily on Edinburgh - with the trams, the second Forth crossing, and the Borders railway - and then central belt first with the M74. It has a fixation on dualling the A9 - a link to the central belt - rather than dealing with the likes of Aberdeen or Dundee.

[footsoldier]

Try driving from Edinburgh to Newcastle,( or to Liverpool) or Aberdeen to Inverness. A good infrastructure between those cities would add many millions in trade I'm sure, but we still have single track roads. Then compare that to the money being spent on Crossrail or HS2 - that tells you all about priorities.

The Scottish government doesn't even have the power to borrow money to put in place our own infrastructure - the priorities in that, and in so many other areas are those of others, and just reinforce the imbalances and cement the status quo, which does not maximise our potential.

Same with the economy - a large chunk of Scotland's is indigenous - oil, whisky, tourism, renewables, farming, fishing etc. it's not going anywhere else. Yet, economic policy is tilted to City of London, which has to compete against other jurisdictions on taxes, (or lack of), mobile money etc, and which time and again has given us boom and bust without any notion of changing, (the latest London "super-bubble" is actually the most distorted yet - wonder how that will pan out?).

I think we can all see from the respective parliaments that our political priorities are different. not necessarily better, just different? i don't see it as impossible that we could design economic policy which suits our specific economy and then delivers the society most people in Scotland want - at least to a better degree than we can now. We already generate more tax per head than UK average, even with a skewed set of economic priorities, decided by others.

When I play blackjack, I prefer to make my own decisions on stick or twist, not let the guy next to me call my hand...