Who is bogging off after the YES vote?

Who is bogging off after the YES vote?

Author
Discussion

rossybee

931 posts

256 months

Thursday 21st August 2014
quotequote all
gwm said:
rossybee said:
You've pretty much summed up my views (apart from the Dublin bit, nice place that it is) smile
Ditto. But alas some are greedy and/ or suffer from the grass is always greener mentality.
Yep - my current wife is leaning towards Yes, must sort that biggrin

gofasterrosssco

1,235 posts

235 months

Thursday 21st August 2014
quotequote all
rossybee said:
gwm said:
rossybee said:
You've pretty much summed up my views (apart from the Dublin bit, nice place that it is) smile
Ditto. But alas some are greedy and/ or suffer from the grass is always greener mentality.
Yep - my current wife is leaning towards Yes, must sort that biggrin
Indeed. I note you said 'current'.. hehe


Lefty

16,131 posts

201 months

Thursday 21st August 2014
quotequote all
The Moose said:
Lefty said:
The Moose said:
I know I'm coming into this a tad late, however I'm curious about it.

Could someone give me a brief run down of why some of the Scots want independence?

I ask the question as to me, it'd seem that economically Scottish independence doesn't make a lot of sense. Whilst it may well be that not everything is about money, it's rather important in this instance!!
I'm Scottish and have Scottish ancestry going back hundreds of years. Born here, lived here all my life (well, apart from a year working in Dublin). Studied here, worked here, live here and plan to stay here.

I love Scotland, it's a great place, a beautiful place, a varied place. I run a business in a thriving Scottish industry, make decent money, have a great standard of living. Good schools for my kids, good healthcare, good opportunities.

I love the roads, I love the whisky, I love the scenery, I love the cities and the islands and the countryside. My wife is from London but feels the same, way, we have no desire to live anywhere else.

I have no earthly idea why anyone would want independence.

ETA: I take serious offence that some nationalist knucklehead might suggest that I'm not a true Scot because I like things the way they are!

Edited by Lefty on Thursday 21st August 10:25
Surely there's a reason these people want independence - do we know what it is?

I'm English, never been to Scotland (that's a slight lie - I went for about 5 hours - flew into Edinburgh to buy a motorbike, found out that in fact it had been misdescribed so jumped on another bike, got on the motorway and hottailed it out of there!) although always admired it from the photographs.

I wouldn't have thought it'd make that much difference to me in the long run, however I am curious as to the thoughts behind it. None of the people I know down here who used to live in Scotland seem to be able to tell me either...
Honestly, I don't have any friends who are in the definite yes camp. I work with one guy who is a yes but he's an old socialist with rabid anti-tory feelings. I do know quite a few people who are undecided but thankfully they seem to be in the "I haven't been sold the story so am leaning towards keeping the status quo" camp. Which makes sense to me.

I think independence offers a very small chance of a minor improvement for Scotland but a very large chance of a huge fking disaster.

Personally I'd decsribe independence as having:
A 5% chance of a small improvement
A 1% chance of it staying the same
A 94% chance of it being much, much worse than it is just now.

I'm not willing to gamble the future of my country on that.


The Moose

22,821 posts

208 months

Thursday 21st August 2014
quotequote all
Lefty said:
The Moose said:
Lefty said:
The Moose said:
I know I'm coming into this a tad late, however I'm curious about it.

Could someone give me a brief run down of why some of the Scots want independence?

I ask the question as to me, it'd seem that economically Scottish independence doesn't make a lot of sense. Whilst it may well be that not everything is about money, it's rather important in this instance!!
I'm Scottish and have Scottish ancestry going back hundreds of years. Born here, lived here all my life (well, apart from a year working in Dublin). Studied here, worked here, live here and plan to stay here.

I love Scotland, it's a great place, a beautiful place, a varied place. I run a business in a thriving Scottish industry, make decent money, have a great standard of living. Good schools for my kids, good healthcare, good opportunities.

I love the roads, I love the whisky, I love the scenery, I love the cities and the islands and the countryside. My wife is from London but feels the same, way, we have no desire to live anywhere else.

I have no earthly idea why anyone would want independence.

ETA: I take serious offence that some nationalist knucklehead might suggest that I'm not a true Scot because I like things the way they are!

Edited by Lefty on Thursday 21st August 10:25
Surely there's a reason these people want independence - do we know what it is?

I'm English, never been to Scotland (that's a slight lie - I went for about 5 hours - flew into Edinburgh to buy a motorbike, found out that in fact it had been misdescribed so jumped on another bike, got on the motorway and hottailed it out of there!) although always admired it from the photographs.

I wouldn't have thought it'd make that much difference to me in the long run, however I am curious as to the thoughts behind it. None of the people I know down here who used to live in Scotland seem to be able to tell me either...
Honestly, I don't have any friends who are in the definite yes camp. I work with one guy who is a yes but he's an old socialist with rabid anti-tory feelings. I do know quite a few people who are undecided but thankfully they seem to be in the "I haven't been sold the story so am leaning towards keeping the status quo" camp. Which makes sense to me.

I think independence offers a very small chance of a minor improvement for Scotland but a very large chance of a huge fking disaster.

Personally I'd decsribe independence as having:
A 5% chance of a small improvement
A 1% chance of it staying the same
A 94% chance of it being much, much worse than it is just now.

I'm not willing to gamble the future of my country on that.
But let's say there's a 5% chance of a small improvement, in what way?!

The way I see it, and I could be totally wrong is that economically, Scotland takes more than it contributes...and that is only going to get worse as the population appears generally to be ageing. Please note that this is just my gut feel from what I've heard over the last couple of years and currently I don't have any figures to back it up.

It almost seems like the government saying they want people to quit smoking but it actually helps the government as the smokers contribute more in taxes than they cost (overall) and they die younger so are a drain on society for less time...

Lefty

16,131 posts

201 months

Thursday 21st August 2014
quotequote all
I've also heard the whingey "we aren't fairly represented" argument.

My response is:
1. You had a fking vote
2. Look at election turnout then STFU
3. If you want to change the rules of democracy because you don't like it then it's not democracy
4. If those are the rules we're gonna follow then I want independence from iScotland. I'll build a wall round my house, raise my clan flag, print my own passport and stop paying taxes.

Lefty

16,131 posts

201 months

Thursday 21st August 2014
quotequote all
The Moose said:
Lefty said:
The Moose said:
Lefty said:
The Moose said:
I know I'm coming into this a tad late, however I'm curious about it.

Could someone give me a brief run down of why some of the Scots want independence?

I ask the question as to me, it'd seem that economically Scottish independence doesn't make a lot of sense. Whilst it may well be that not everything is about money, it's rather important in this instance!!
I'm Scottish and have Scottish ancestry going back hundreds of years. Born here, lived here all my life (well, apart from a year working in Dublin). Studied here, worked here, live here and plan to stay here.

I love Scotland, it's a great place, a beautiful place, a varied place. I run a business in a thriving Scottish industry, make decent money, have a great standard of living. Good schools for my kids, good healthcare, good opportunities.

I love the roads, I love the whisky, I love the scenery, I love the cities and the islands and the countryside. My wife is from London but feels the same, way, we have no desire to live anywhere else.

I have no earthly idea why anyone would want independence.

ETA: I take serious offence that some nationalist knucklehead might suggest that I'm not a true Scot because I like things the way they are!

Edited by Lefty on Thursday 21st August 10:25
Surely there's a reason these people want independence - do we know what it is?

I'm English, never been to Scotland (that's a slight lie - I went for about 5 hours - flew into Edinburgh to buy a motorbike, found out that in fact it had been misdescribed so jumped on another bike, got on the motorway and hottailed it out of there!) although always admired it from the photographs.

I wouldn't have thought it'd make that much difference to me in the long run, however I am curious as to the thoughts behind it. None of the people I know down here who used to live in Scotland seem to be able to tell me either...
Honestly, I don't have any friends who are in the definite yes camp. I work with one guy who is a yes but he's an old socialist with rabid anti-tory feelings. I do know quite a few people who are undecided but thankfully they seem to be in the "I haven't been sold the story so am leaning towards keeping the status quo" camp. Which makes sense to me.

I think independence offers a very small chance of a minor improvement for Scotland but a very large chance of a huge fking disaster.

Personally I'd decsribe independence as having:
A 5% chance of a small improvement
A 1% chance of it staying the same
A 94% chance of it being much, much worse than it is just now.

I'm not willing to gamble the future of my country on that.
But let's say there's a 5% chance of a small improvement, in what way?!

The way I see it, and I could be totally wrong is that economically, Scotland takes more than it contributes...and that is only going to get worse as the population appears generally to be ageing. Please note that this is just my gut feel from what I've heard over the last couple of years and currently I don't have any figures to back it up.

It almost seems like the government saying they want people to quit smoking but it actually helps the government as the smokers contribute more in taxes than they cost (overall) and they die younger so are a drain on society for less time...
Well i don't really know. Perhaps taxes might be lower, perhaps unemployment might be 0%, perhaps nobody will be on benefits, perhaps I'm wrong and the socialist money tree really does exist. Perhaps the UK government will bend over and let Alex roger them. Perhaps Scotland will be the wealthiest country in the world. Like I say, a small chance. Maybe 5% was optimistic. wink

The Moose

22,821 posts

208 months

Thursday 21st August 2014
quotequote all
Lefty said:
The Moose said:
Lefty said:
The Moose said:
Lefty said:
The Moose said:
I know I'm coming into this a tad late, however I'm curious about it.

Could someone give me a brief run down of why some of the Scots want independence?

I ask the question as to me, it'd seem that economically Scottish independence doesn't make a lot of sense. Whilst it may well be that not everything is about money, it's rather important in this instance!!
I'm Scottish and have Scottish ancestry going back hundreds of years. Born here, lived here all my life (well, apart from a year working in Dublin). Studied here, worked here, live here and plan to stay here.

I love Scotland, it's a great place, a beautiful place, a varied place. I run a business in a thriving Scottish industry, make decent money, have a great standard of living. Good schools for my kids, good healthcare, good opportunities.

I love the roads, I love the whisky, I love the scenery, I love the cities and the islands and the countryside. My wife is from London but feels the same, way, we have no desire to live anywhere else.

I have no earthly idea why anyone would want independence.

ETA: I take serious offence that some nationalist knucklehead might suggest that I'm not a true Scot because I like things the way they are!

Edited by Lefty on Thursday 21st August 10:25
Surely there's a reason these people want independence - do we know what it is?

I'm English, never been to Scotland (that's a slight lie - I went for about 5 hours - flew into Edinburgh to buy a motorbike, found out that in fact it had been misdescribed so jumped on another bike, got on the motorway and hottailed it out of there!) although always admired it from the photographs.

I wouldn't have thought it'd make that much difference to me in the long run, however I am curious as to the thoughts behind it. None of the people I know down here who used to live in Scotland seem to be able to tell me either...
Honestly, I don't have any friends who are in the definite yes camp. I work with one guy who is a yes but he's an old socialist with rabid anti-tory feelings. I do know quite a few people who are undecided but thankfully they seem to be in the "I haven't been sold the story so am leaning towards keeping the status quo" camp. Which makes sense to me.

I think independence offers a very small chance of a minor improvement for Scotland but a very large chance of a huge fking disaster.

Personally I'd decsribe independence as having:
A 5% chance of a small improvement
A 1% chance of it staying the same
A 94% chance of it being much, much worse than it is just now.

I'm not willing to gamble the future of my country on that.
But let's say there's a 5% chance of a small improvement, in what way?!

The way I see it, and I could be totally wrong is that economically, Scotland takes more than it contributes...and that is only going to get worse as the population appears generally to be ageing. Please note that this is just my gut feel from what I've heard over the last couple of years and currently I don't have any figures to back it up.

It almost seems like the government saying they want people to quit smoking but it actually helps the government as the smokers contribute more in taxes than they cost (overall) and they die younger so are a drain on society for less time...
Well i don't really know. Perhaps taxes might be lower, perhaps unemployment might be 0%, perhaps nobody will be on benefits, perhaps I'm wrong and the socialist money tree really does exist. Perhaps the UK government will bend over and let Alex roger them. Perhaps Scotland will be the wealthiest country in the world. Like I say, a small chance. Maybe 5% was optimistic. wink
It's just one of those situations where I'm scratching my head and can't really work out the pros to it all. But I'm sure that is (worringly) left to smarter people than I...

Lefty

16,131 posts

201 months

Thursday 21st August 2014
quotequote all
Remember everyone gets to decide their own criteria for voting. Many yes votes will be purely based on emotions, that's fine. I don't agree with it but I understand it.

The campaigns jobs are to sell their vierws to the undecided - I can't imagine many yes or no voters having their minds changed.


DottyMR2

478 posts

126 months

Thursday 21st August 2014
quotequote all
The whole thing is a bit of a farce really. It's reached that horrid stage of every vote where it's degenerated to threats/mud slinging.

Lots of threats made that if the vote is No, Westminster is going to crush the status quo anyway. Lots of economists split over the debate etc. etc.

I look at it as a title fight in boxing. The current setup is the reigning champ, Independance the challenger. All the champ has to do is not lose, the challenger has to go out adn win it. The Yes vote has to really win me over and I'm afraid they've reached the stage of "Go on, take a chance eh!".

I'm sorry, but like above, I do ok for myself. Getting a house, good job etc. so tbh, I'm pretty content the way it is. Yes westminster is terribly corrupt, but lets face it, are the SNP any better?

I've got a few Yes vote people on FB and the stuff they post seems to paint a post independance Scotland as some sort of utopian society, with no crime, corruption and we all have millions of monies and no troubles at all.

All I can think is, do I want that beady eyed little fker in charge? I have to question why they want it and have done for so long. It's not a love of the country, if it was, they'd have done a much better job with the limited things they control. Do I want to give that bunch of morons complete power?

I have no problem with Independance and yes, it could work. However, this time in the economical climate, with the SNP at the helm, I don't think it's right. It's not as if we couldn't ever get another chance, it's a democracy after all and we can call it whenever we like. The threats of it's our only chance stink of the real meaning being it's the SNPs only chance. So why do they want it so desperately? scratchchin

Still in the undecided camp, but I'm leaning heavily to **** THAT!

Edited by DottyMR2 on Thursday 21st August 14:55

DCL

1,215 posts

178 months

Thursday 21st August 2014
quotequote all
At the start of the campaign it was a 'finger in the wind' type of decision for me. But I did promise to myself that I would research and read up both sides of the arguments. All I can say is that several months on, the YES arguments have less substance, and the NO arguments seem to reflect the reality.

The problem is now trying to understand what the motivates the independence campaign, or should that be the SNP. What drives seemingly intelligent politicians to adopt such a naive view of the facts, and make so little effort to plug the gaps in their arguments? Is it a case of 'be careful what you wish for' and a inner desire to fail?

Ironically, the SNP have done well as part of the UK - independence might be a game changer for them.

Edited by DCL on Thursday 21st August 19:06


Edited by DCL on Thursday 21st August 20:57

k2sherpa

9 posts

115 months

Thursday 21st August 2014
quotequote all
jamieduff1981 said:
Rollin said:
k2sherpa said:
jamieduff1981 said:
Rollin said:
Unfortunately democracy isn't about getting the government you personally want.
Particularly worth noting when it's realised that you can do as much background research and soul searching as you want but your vote can be cancelled out by someone who thinks the sky is a carpet and learned all their opinions in a pub.
So Rollin do you think the people of Scotland are fairly and democratically represented with the current Westminster government? Taken straight from wikipedia "Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens are meant to participate equally". The others are absolute monarchy, oligarchy or a dictatorship.

James, I'm not sure if you're referring to my opinions being learned in a pub. If so sorry to disappoint, I've done my own research and wouldn't be voting the way I am otherwise.
You said

" In my eyes we don't have a democracy. It's got nothing to do with nationalism, it's about getting an elected government you want. As it stands right now Westminster can do what they please and there's not a damn thing we can do about it, regardless of how we vote (I mean in general elections as opposed to the independence referendum). How is that democratic? With independence we can vote parties in or out based on how they perform / govern, now that's democracy."

I don't know who the "we" is in your statement. If "we" is people with the same political views as yourself, then you will not always get the government you want. Just like any other group in the UK.

You say democracy is when citizens participate equally. Seems you want more say for your views in the UK than other citizens. Why?
I can answer that. Nobody really wants a democracy but the most ardent of idealists. The vast majority who say 'democracy' really mean 'getting their own way'.

If they get what they want it's a democracy. If they don't get what they want it isn't.

Some people seem to believe that by voting for a smaller country they will somehow have more control although in practise nothing really changes. Salmond wants power although he claims this is about Scotland. It isn't. He'll never be PM of the UK so he wants his own playground.

A number of people hope that things like self-interested politicians will become a thing of the past in a smaller country. They wont. Why on earth would the type of person who becomes a career politician change to idealistic rightious people? It's nonsense - but they want to believe it. If you feel powerless it's because you are powerless and you'll always be powerless regardless of the national constitution you're powerless in.
Rollin, when I say "we", I mean the people of Scotland as a whole don't have a democracy in my opinion (might be naively on my part). We can't vote out whatever bunch of clowns are in Westminster, we don't have our own tax raising capabilities and we can't get rid of Trident amongst others.

James I think think I am an idealist for better or worse and the reason I'm voting yes is because I genuinely believe Scotland will be able to be a better country (mainly because we will be able to use our tax revenues to improve / make changes that benefit Scotland, not London). I don't think it will happen overnight and it won't be easy but, I'd like to think with the right party/leaders in place changes can be made for the better of the country, whether it be improving roads, keeping the NHS, getting rid of Trident, helping the poorer people in society.

As for your comment about a career politician, you can say many things about Alex Salmond but he's never fiddled his expenses (at least I've never read about) like so many of the current Westminster elite. Regardless of that, it will be the SNP and Salmond in power until 2016 but then after that it's election time again, if you don't like him you can vote for someone else. I don't really trust most politicians, but I think the Scottish politicians are a bit more like "normal" people and I'd like to think they would have Scotland's interests at heart than the Eton educated toffs in Westminster. These guy's live on a different planet!!

Maybe going off on a tangent but I once worked with a guy that went to Fettis college. He asked if I had a fag at my school. A what I asked. Someone to make your breakfast in the morning and warm up the toilet seat before you go he replied. He said it what every 5th and 6th former had and it was "normal". These are the types of idiots currently running the country, they've all came from privileged backgrounds and look after their mates in the city, I really don't think they give a st about the people that require food banks in Glasgow. Just look at Boris Johnson's latest comments saying that Scotland shouldn't get any more tax raising powers and that a pound spend in Croydon is better spent than a pound spent in Strathclyde..

I don't actually think I'll be better off, financially at least, but I think if I along with other people on a decent wage have to pay a little more in tax to make the country better then it will be the right thing to do. I've worked hard and spent half my life away from home providing for my family, if I thought their future would be bleak under independence then it would be a no, it's for my kids future I'm voting yes. I'm happy to be corrected though smile

GoneAnon

1,703 posts

151 months

Thursday 21st August 2014
quotequote all
K2sherpa said it better than I.

Rollin

6,077 posts

244 months

Thursday 21st August 2014
quotequote all
I wonder if you felt the same under 13 years of Labour?
It's a case of change the system when you don't get a result you like.

HenryJM

6,315 posts

128 months

Thursday 21st August 2014
quotequote all
Yes well I'm sure you always agree with pcvdriver k2sherpa

k2sherpa

9 posts

115 months

Thursday 21st August 2014
quotequote all
HenryJM said:
Yes well I'm sure you always agree with pcvdriver k2sherpa
I've no idea who pcdriver is, I saw someone mention him earlier on but haven't followed the "other" thread. It's people like you, and the inevitable mud slinging fest that these discussions end up as, being the main reason why I haven't signed up before. Grow up would you, I signed up so that I could discuss the referendum.

Edited by k2sherpa on Thursday 21st August 21:53

k2sherpa

9 posts

115 months

Thursday 21st August 2014
quotequote all
Rollin said:
I wonder if you felt the same under 13 years of Labour?
It's a case of change the system when you don't get a result you like.
I did Rollin but to me, Labour, the Tories, the Lib Dems, they're all cut from the same cloth. They might say they have different ideals and views but the majority of them are from ultra privileged backgrounds with no concept of "real life". Just look at the latest number of Labour members being elected into the house of Lords. I think that's over 200 of the so called "people's party" now lords.




gofasterrosssco

1,235 posts

235 months

Thursday 21st August 2014
quotequote all
k2sherpa said:
Rollin, when I say "we", I mean the people of Scotland as a whole don't have a democracy in my opinion (might be naively on my part). We can't vote out whatever bunch of clowns are in Westminster, we don't have our own tax raising capabilities and we can't get rid of Trident amongst others.

James I think think I am an idealist for better or worse and the reason I'm voting yes is because I genuinely believe Scotland will be able to be a better country (mainly because we will be able to use our tax revenues to improve / make changes that benefit Scotland, not London). I don't think it will happen overnight and it won't be easy but, I'd like to think with the right party/leaders in place changes can be made for the better of the country, whether it be improving roads, keeping the NHS, getting rid of Trident, helping the poorer people in society.

As for your comment about a career politician, you can say many things about Alex Salmond but he's never fiddled his expenses (at least I've never read about) like so many of the current Westminster elite. Regardless of that, it will be the SNP and Salmond in power until 2016 but then after that it's election time again, if you don't like him you can vote for someone else. I don't really trust most politicians, but I think the Scottish politicians are a bit more like "normal" people and I'd like to think they would have Scotland's interests at heart than the Eton educated toffs in Westminster. These guy's live on a different planet!!

Maybe going off on a tangent but I once worked with a guy that went to Fettis college. He asked if I had a fag at my school. A what I asked. Someone to make your breakfast in the morning and warm up the toilet seat before you go he replied. He said it what every 5th and 6th former had and it was "normal". These are the types of idiots currently running the country, they've all came from privileged backgrounds and look after their mates in the city, I really don't think they give a st about the people that require food banks in Glasgow. Just look at Boris Johnson's latest comments saying that Scotland shouldn't get any more tax raising powers and that a pound spend in Croydon is better spent than a pound spent in Strathclyde..

I don't actually think I'll be better off, financially at least, but I think if I along with other people on a decent wage have to pay a little more in tax to make the country better then it will be the right thing to do. I've worked hard and spent half my life away from home providing for my family, if I thought their future would be bleak under independence then it would be a no, it's for my kids future I'm voting yes. I'm happy to be corrected though smile
So basically, as we noted previously, you don't like the system because the result doesn't personally suit you, and you don't 'get' some politicians, which the makes said system undemocratic, and you'd rather only your own kind that you 'get' are in charge.?

I don't have anything in common with someone educated at Eton, and it's a lovely characature to present (not like we haven't heard it before) to people to show how alien these people are to us up North. Does that make them unsuitable politicians? Does someone have to come from a working class background to gain credibility, like Thatcher?

As usual, it's easy to distort and exaggerate the truth rather than realise its all really a big compromise. Is being in a Union with another country a compromise? Of course it is. Is it worth the compromise, especially given the fact we have our own localised government (although it's probably more "local" to central belt politics) deciding on the issues that affect people on a daily basis, but don't end up in competition with our nearest neighbours? I and many think it is..

HenryJM

6,315 posts

128 months

Thursday 21st August 2014
quotequote all
k2sherpa said:
HenryJM said:
Yes well I'm sure you always agree with pcvdriver k2sherpa
I've no idea who K2sherpa is, I saw someone mention him earlier on but haven't followed the "other" thread. It's people like you, and the inevitable mud slinging fest that these discussions end up as, being the main reason why I haven't signed up before. Grow up would you, I signed up so that I could discuss the referendum.
You don't know who k2sherpa is? Hmmm...!!

rofl

k2sherpa

9 posts

115 months

Thursday 21st August 2014
quotequote all
HenryJM said:
You don't know who k2sherpa is? Hmmm...!!

rofl
I actually just searched for him. Not sure how I can prove to you I'm not him but more than happy to put a large bet that he and I am not the same person.

Obviously I'm not going to post my real name up here but please feel free to contact admin to find out who I am.

HenryJM

6,315 posts

128 months

Friday 22nd August 2014
quotequote all
k2sherpa said:
HenryJM said:
You don't know who k2sherpa is? Hmmm...!!

rofl
I actually just searched for him. Not sure how I can prove to you I'm not him but more than happy to put a large bet that he and I am not the same person.

Obviously I'm not going to post my real name up here but please feel free to contact admin to find out who I am.
So you are logged in as k2sherpa, you are posting as k2sherpa and you don't know who k2sherpa is?