Who is bogging off after the YES vote?

[Gaspode]

exitwound said:

Your right, oil is simply a curse, how unlucky were we to be an oil producing nation... Whatever will we do? Oh dear!

Ok, try it in reverse...

We're already a separate nation, ok? We have full control of our politics, resources and finances etc..

Now we're having a referendum to see if we would want to join a union with England, Wales and Northern Ireland.. What would be the incentive for us to actually want to do that? What advantages would there be for us to potentially enhance our lives?

Anyone??

Let's cast our minds back to when this actually happened. In 1707 Scotland was an independent nation, in full control of its politics, resources, finances etc. They willingly and wholeheartedly entered a union with the rest of us. Why was this? Oh yes, they had bankrupted themselves through poor financial management and a completely bonkers venture in Central America. For the next 300 years or so they were helped and subsidised by the rest of the UK. Not a problem, because together we achieved great things.

Fortunately it looks very much like we're going to get a No vote, and we can crack on with mending the rifts and being great again.

[Mad Jock]

exitwound said:

Your right, oil is simply a curse, how unlucky were we to be an oil producing nation... Whatever will we do? Oh dear!

Ok, try it in reverse...

We're already a separate nation, ok? We have full control of our politics, resources and finances etc..

Now we're having a referendum to see if we would want to join a union with England, Wales and Northern Ireland.. What would be the incentive for us to actually want to do that? What advantages would there be for us to potentially enhance our lives?

Anyone??

If we're such an independent nation, why does Salmond want to re-join the EU, as I don't reckon that the SNP will enjoy any more of a majority within the EU parliament than it does within the UK Parliament? Salmond doesn't want to be ruled by a government that we Scots didn't elect, but he is quite happy to be ruled by a government in another country that we didn't elect.

Anyway, I never said oil was a curse, just that Salmond wants to demonise it's use yet is quite happy to take the profits from the tax revenues. That's pure hypocrisy in my opinion.

[dxg]

I came up to Scotland today.

Really quite taken aback by the prominence of the 'yes' campaign. Across in Edinburgh there's posters displayed in houses all over the place. Quite a few advertising hoardings with a soft focus image of a mother and baby and the 'yes' moniker around too. Note the absence of content beyond an appeal to base emotions.

Over in Glasgow and there's some kind of rally on in George Square which seems to be a conflation of the 'yes' campaign and the anti-nuclear lot. I couldn't hear what they were saying as their PA was so weak. If they can't organise their own rally, then...

As for the visibility of the 'no' campaign? One poster on a lamppost and some graffiti under a bridge is all I've seen...

I'm genuinely concerned.

[GoneAnon]

Gaspode said:

Let's cast our minds back to when this actually happened. In 1707 Scotland was an independent nation, in full control of its politics, resources, finances etc. They willingly and wholeheartedly entered a union with the rest of us. Why was this? Oh yes, they had bankrupted themselves through poor financial management and a completely bonkers venture in Central America. For the next 300 years or so they were helped and subsidised by the rest of the UK. Not a problem, because together we achieved great things.

Fortunately it looks very much like we're going to get a No vote, and we can crack on with mending the rifts and being great again.

Oh dear.

In 1707 Scotland was bought and sold by a parcel o rogues and there were riots in the streets.

Ordinary people had no say in the decision and the aristos lined their own pockets.

As for us being subsidised for 300 years, show us the evidence or stop peddling twaddle.

[GoneAnon]

Rollin said:

exitwound said:

Mad Jock said:

I think that Salmond's attitude towards oil is a little hypocritical, to say the least. He wants the revenues, and the jobs, from oil, but in the same breath wants us to grow our own clothes, build wind farms and stop driving.

It's a bit like a drug pusher telling his family to not take drugs, but is selling as much as he can to his neighbours.

Your right, oil is simply a curse, how unlucky were we to be an oil producing nation... Whatever will we do? Oh dear!

Ok, try it in reverse...

We're already a separate nation, ok? We have full control of our politics, resources and finances etc..

Now we're having a referendum to see if we would want to join a union with England, Wales and Northern Ireland.. What would be the incentive for us to actually want to do that? What advantages would there be for us to potentially enhance our lives?

Anyone??

No one has ever said oil is a curse. It's made up bks from nationalists. Your oil won't pay for all the things that nationalists are promising. That is what has been said.

As to your other bks premise, how about if there was a failing economy, failing public services, mass unemployment, flight of capital and people? Would a country vote for a union with more successful nations then?

If people you are trying to persuade are actually converted by that argument they are stupid.

I don't think many people would argue that England or its economy is stronger than that for Scotland. And if it is, that is hardly a ringing endorsement for the benefits of the union, how the union has been run, or the merits of joining.

[HenryJM]

GoneAnon said:

I don't think many people would argue that England or its economy is stronger than that for Scotland. And if it is, that is hardly a ringing endorsement for the benefits of the union, how the union has been run, or the merits of joining.

Well that's gibberish.

[Dryce]

exitwound said:

Now we're having a referendum to see if we would want to join a union with England, Wales and Northern Ireland.. What would be the incentive for us to actually want to do that? What advantages would there be for us to potentially enhance our lives?

Anyone??

But what's the starting point of you subtract 300 years that put Scotland at the heart of the industrial revolution and empire - and missed out on the likes of bevin and the NHS.

Edinburgh and Glasgow might look completely different (no Edinburgh New Town, no Glasgow underground)

Maybe no Scotty on the Enterprise either!

No Leith Walk or Taman Fettes in Penang.

[Dryce]

dxg said:

As for the visibility of the 'no' campaign? One poster on a lamppost and some graffiti under a bridge is all I've seen...

I'm genuinely concerned.

Well I drove through east and south Glasgow today and the lack of anything (at least along my route) was astonishing. If it was a general election it would be festooned with posters. I think I saw half a dozen. Maybe I was in the wronng streets.

The problem with the campaign is that it was always going to be dominated by one side because it's basically like a single issue where theer is a group advocating change and the remainder that want the status quo.

One aspect which I have found surprisng is the general lack of visibility of Scottish Labour. Only a few Scottish Labour MPs have been prominent.

It's also a bit strange seeing the 'yes' white on blue without the Saltire - as it has echoes of Conservative election colours.

If this is a really close 'yes' then it will stand as an apocryphal demonstration to the world of why constitutional change should require a safe majority of the electorate to vote - eg. at least 55 or 60% - because in this case perhaps 2 million or less people ccould ast a vote that significantly impacts not just a region of just over 5 million but an established nation of 65 million.

Edited by Dryce on Tuesday 16th September 21:45

[GoneAnon]

HenryJM said:

GoneAnon said:

I don't think many people would argue that England or its economy is stronger than that for Scotland. And if it is, that is hardly a ringing endorsement for the benefits of the union, how the union has been run, or the merits of joining.

Well that's gibberish.

What bits did you fail to comprehend? Maybe I can put it in simpler terms for you:
Is England performing better than Scotland?
If it is, why are we being left behind in the union? And why would we want to continue to be part of that set-up?

[Dryce]

GoneAnon said:

Is England performing better than Scotland?

Bits of it are bits of it are not.

Try a different question - is Edinburgh performing better than Glasgow?

And if so should Glasgow seek independence from Scotland?

GoneAnon said:

If it is, why are we being left behind in the union?

So what about Dundee compared with Edinburgh?

GoneAnon said:

And why would we want to continue to be part of that set-up?

This of course assumes that being in the UK is a disadvantage.

But if it's so important to split from one union why is it so important to be part of another - the EU - which is potentially even more distant and remote to Scotland - while imposing its own policies, laws, and currency?

Edited by Dryce on Tuesday 16th September 22:58

[MintyChris]

exitwound said:

Your right, oil is simply a curse, how unlucky were we to be an oil producing nation... Whatever will we do? Oh dear!

Ok, try it in reverse...

We're already a separate nation, ok? We have full control of our politics, resources and finances etc..

Now we're having a referendum to see if we would want to join a union with England, Wales and Northern Ireland.. What would be the incentive for us to actually want to do that? What advantages would there be for us to potentially enhance our lives?

Anyone??

So you wouldn't join a strong and powerful union with England, Wales and NI who all speak your language and live right next door but you would join a union and give up your powers with the EU? Who are further away and who speak a different language?

Anyway, its a ridiculous question. We aren't separate, we are united and have been for 300 years.

If your life is so bad what has the SNP done to help you? You know...that Scottish Government we already have?

[Angelus]

MintyChris said:

If your life is so bad what has the SNP done to help you?

The roads, sanitation, education and the streets are safer to walk at night.

[Mad Jock]

Angelus said:

The roads, sanitation, education and the streets are safer to walk at night.

Nah, that was the Romans.............

[jamieduff1981]

Angelus said:

MintyChris said:

If your life is so bad what has the SNP done to help you?

The roads, sanitation, education and the streets are safer to walk at night.

Which roads? Aberdeenshire has had nothing. We still don't have a bypass and we've still got single carriageway between the two main oil & gas harbours. The A9 should have been upgraded to dual carriageway years ago but the SNP fixed that by installing average speed cameras. Meanwhile Edinburgh has had trams that nobody cares about and Glasgow has had more motorway. The SNP have done hee haw for me.

[whoami]

Angelus said:

MintyChris said:

If your life is so bad what has the SNP done to help you?

The roads, sanitation, education and the streets are safer to walk at night.

[HenryJM]

GoneAnon said:

HenryJM said:

GoneAnon said:

I don't think many people would argue that England or its economy is stronger than that for Scotland. And if it is, that is hardly a ringing endorsement for the benefits of the union, how the union has been run, or the merits of joining.

Well that's gibberish.

What bits did you fail to comprehend? Maybe I can put it in simpler terms for you:
Is England performing better than Scotland?
If it is, why are we being left behind in the union? And why would we want to continue to be part of that set-up?

The UK is performing well as a unit. The area with the highest GDP under any measure is London, Scotland ranks around the middle of the various UK regions and the whole thing runs pretty well.

Scotland isn't being left behind in the union, it is actually being treated as a special case amongst the UK regions with a degree of self governance that others don't have or want. Wanting to remain as a part of it is to get the best of both worlds, a fair degree of self governance inside a wider economic unit that allows Scotland to perform better and have a larger safety net than going it alone.

There is no reason beyond emotion for independence, I struggle to see anything of a practical nature that would improve, that would make people richer or better off in any sense other than getting Scotland written on you passport. (That's assuming that Scotland can afford to set up it's own passport agency and give millions of people new documents - one of the myriad of costs that it is doubtful that a new country without it's own currency and a big deficit could afford).

[exitwound]

MintyChris said:

So you wouldn't join a strong and powerful union with England, Wales and NI who all speak your language and live right next door but you would join a union and give up your powers with the EU? Who are further away and who speak a different language?

Anyway, its a ridiculous question. We aren't separate, we are united and have been for 300 years.

If your life is so bad what has the SNP done to help you? You know...that Scottish Government we already have?

You have nothing to offer us, there's no advantage in being part of a union. that's my point..

The Scottish Govt. bung me a 1% payrise every year in the face of Westminster who say we are to get nothing at all until at least 2018 and they've clawed back cash they spent propping up the banks, and there's maybe a surplus in the public sector then. I need a payrise of 15% now to break even and I've more chance of getting at least something with an independent Scotland.

But still the MP's are to get their 9% as they are "public servants", so what am I and the others, ...a f*cking mirage??

[Stwdv]

Its all getting too emotional and self centered.
There is no doubt that Independence has set great expectations for the Yes vote and there are going to be a lot of people who will want instant returns
I just wonder how those expectations will be managed, there is a lot of talk about the long term but as humans and society as we are now we want things immediately

[Bluebarge]

exitwound said:

MintyChris said:

So you wouldn't join a strong and powerful union with England, Wales and NI who all speak your language and live right next door but you would join a union and give up your powers with the EU? Who are further away and who speak a different language?

Anyway, its a ridiculous question. We aren't separate, we are united and have been for 300 years.

If your life is so bad what has the SNP done to help you? You know...that Scottish Government we already have?

You have nothing to offer us, there's no advantage in being part of a union. that's my point..

The Scottish Govt. bung me a 1% payrise every year in the face of Westminster who say we are to get nothing at all until at least 2018 and they've clawed back cash they spent propping up the banks, and there's maybe a surplus in the public sector then. I need a payrise of 15% now to break even and I've more chance of getting at least something with an independent Scotland.

But still the MP's are to get their 9% as they are "public servants", so what am I and the others, ...a f*cking mirage??

There are 500,000 public servants in Scotland, for a population of 4.8m. That number is only sustainable if it is servicing a much bigger entity (the UK). Scotland's public sector will have to shrink very quickly if the public finances are not to implode. You are far more likely to lose your job with a Yes vote than get a pay-rise.

It's frankly a little scary that people ar prepared to swallow the horsesh*t that Wee Eck & Co peddle so freely.

p.S. - those banks that are being propped up - where did they come from? Which prominent Scottish businessman who was responsible for that almighty clusterf**k is a prominent supporter of the Yes campaign? Answers on a postcard.....

[Jader1973]

exitwound said:

I've more chance of getting at least something with an independent Scotland.

Are you mental?

What makes you think you'll get more of a pay rise in an independent Scotland? The first thing Alex will have to do is hike taxes to make things "fairer" which is code for take more from the people who work and give it to those who don't. You will be worse off!

I honestly thought that my fellow countrymen were smarter than this. How the fk can anyone in their right mind possibly vote for an egocentric moron who has NO PLANS for anything? No plans for a currency, no plan for EU membership, no hint at how much it will all cost, NOTHING.

I cannot believe how many people have been sucked in by his jingoistic, racist, divisive pipedream.

"It will all be better" is not a policy FFS.