Speeding When You Didn't See The Signs?
Discussion
Breadvan72 said:
Why not just use the language that everyone else uses, Derek? If you invent terms of your own, how does that assist in conveying meaning? Inventing you own lexicon means that people have to ask you what your made up terms mean. I gather that "stated case" may be one of those made up terms that cozzers like to use because they mistakenly think that it invests what they say with the appearance of formality and import, along the same lines as "I was proceeding in a westerly direction", and so on. A lawyer would just say "a case." We used sometimes to say "a reported case", but in these internetty times almost every blooming case is reported.
PS: yes, what is a third tier court? Got any other made up legal terms to puzzle us with?
PPS: I am just teasing you. Happy Easter.
A lawyer telling someone to use the language that everyone else uses? Whatever next?PS: yes, what is a third tier court? Got any other made up legal terms to puzzle us with?
PPS: I am just teasing you. Happy Easter.
Led by a bloke called Lord Justice Staughton, many of us had a language clear-out about 25 years ago and adopted plain English. Lack of clarity or use of excessive jargon (especially use out of context) can be a sign of a duff lawyer. Having said that, every technical trade has a technical language (IT geeks, car mechanics, doctors, etc). That is why I tease Derek for his misuse of terminology. If you are using a term of art, use a real one, not one that lacks a standardised meaning.
Breadvan72 said:
Led by a bloke called Lord Justice Staughton, many of us had a language clear-out about 25 years ago and adopted plain English. Lack of clarity or use of excessive jargon (especially use out of context) can be a sign of a duff lawyer. Having said that, every technical trade has a technical language (IT geeks, car mechanics, doctors, etc). That is why I tease Derek for his misuse of terminology. If you are using a term of art, use a real one, not one that lacks a standardised meaning.
Have they accepted the comma and the full stop yet? 
You still see old fashioned drafting that eschews punctuation, but such drafting is rarer than it used to be.
Snowboy, Derek was posting on a legal subject and used a term that has no fixed meaning. You have understood it one way, but I infer that Derek meant it another way. Hence the observation that terms of art are useful in any field of art, but only when they come from a standardised lexicon.
Snowboy, Derek was posting on a legal subject and used a term that has no fixed meaning. You have understood it one way, but I infer that Derek meant it another way. Hence the observation that terms of art are useful in any field of art, but only when they come from a standardised lexicon.
AL...Ease said:
I have received the NIP. I went down there last week and I think that they've now removed the temporary speed limit, which means that there's no way of me proving whether or not there was sufficient signage at the time.
One of my hopes after passing the NSL sign was that the cameras weren't switched on, but sadly they were.
If it helps, I use the M18 all the time and upon approaching those particular roadworks (Junction with A1(M)), there were two seperate 50mph signs plus "average speed camera" signs. On the bridge there was at least one 50mph sign, and of course the NSL sign after the bridge. Using it every week for a while now, I'd say there was ample notice of speed. But the road has been returned to normal running so I think you'll have trouble with this one.One of my hopes after passing the NSL sign was that the cameras weren't switched on, but sadly they were.
BV
Section 111 Magistrates Court Act 1980 the result of which in my days used by non wigged ones as term case stated?. But then I am ancient.
May your Easter eggs be cooked if you go jarping(1)....
dvd
(1) The ancient custom at Easter of using cooked eggs like conkers (2)
and knocking hell out of each.
(2) The fruit kernel of the Horsechestnut tree
Section 111 Magistrates Court Act 1980 the result of which in my days used by non wigged ones as term case stated?. But then I am ancient.
May your Easter eggs be cooked if you go jarping(1)....
dvd
(1) The ancient custom at Easter of using cooked eggs like conkers (2)
and knocking hell out of each.
(2) The fruit kernel of the Horsechestnut tree
Breadvan72 said:
You still see old fashioned drafting that eschews punctuation, but such drafting is rarer than it used to be.
Snowboy, Derek was posting on a legal subject and used a term that has no fixed meaning. You have understood it one way, but I infer that Derek meant it another way. Hence the observation that terms of art are useful in any field of art, but only when they come from a standardised lexicon.
If someone posts on, for instance, the subject of compression then they have to make a decision on terminology. Should they use language that technicians use? Or perhaps designers? Or maybe that of the people most likely to read it.Snowboy, Derek was posting on a legal subject and used a term that has no fixed meaning. You have understood it one way, but I infer that Derek meant it another way. Hence the observation that terms of art are useful in any field of art, but only when they come from a standardised lexicon.
I used to teach traffic officers the obscure subject of mechanics at initial level. I mentioned the classic explanation of such/squeeze/bang/blow for the 4 stroke cycle. There was one - there always is - who suggested that there is no such thing as suck. The mixture is forced in by air pressure.
So who was right, me or the know-all? The answer is both. K-A was technically correct but I was spot on for my intent of explaining a system.
Footpath, pavement, etc can be used when talking of an offence of, for instance, wheels on the footway as long as it wasn't used in the file.
I'm happy with stated case. I feel more or less confident that those who read it understand it to mean that a court of appeal have made a decision that, in a certain 'case', an action or set of actions will/will not be an offence. I think the PH massive understands that these are open to change.
R v Turnball, some parts of which I was able to recite word perfectly when I was ID officer is referred to as a case stated. I have used the phrase in court and not been beaten up.
Precision in legal terminology is essential in certain circs. but these normally, if not exclusively, require specific training or qualifications of the legal kind. For the rest of us, those not having to argue a case in court, short-hand is acceptable.
Suck, squeeze, bang, blow covers the important bits. It is understandable. If you were designing an intake system for an internal combustion engine it would be better to have more precise wording, one that includes air pressure, but for the rest of us, it is sufficient.
10 Pence Short said:
What is a 'third tier' court?
Third Tier Crown Court?http://sixthformlaw.info/01_modules/mod1/1_2_crimi...
Snappy89 said:
If it helps, I use the M18 all the time and upon approaching those particular roadworks (Junction with A1(M)), there were two seperate 50mph signs plus "average speed camera" signs. On the bridge there was at least one 50mph sign, and of course the NSL sign after the bridge. Using it every week for a while now, I'd say there was ample notice of speed. But the road has been returned to normal running so I think you'll have trouble with this one.
If that's the case, and they were in place when I drove through, I don't know how the hell I could possibly have missed them! It's not like I was tired or in a hurry, I didn't see anything to make me think that there was a reduced limit.The NIP says Junction 2 of the M18, which seems to be where you are describing.
Oh well, anyone know if I'll be able to do a Speed Awareness Course rather than have points for 68 in a 50?
Mr GrimNasty said:
Exactly. Which reinforces BVs point. 'Third Tier' is not what Derek actually meant and, on this occasion, it does have a meaning that conflicts with what he really meant (which I suspect was referring to the Court of Appeal).10 Pence Short said:
Mr GrimNasty said:
Exactly. Which reinforces BVs point. 'Third Tier' is not what Derek actually meant and, on this occasion, it does have a meaning that conflicts with what he really meant (which I suspect was referring to the Court of Appeal).I should have used a term or phrase which the normal forum reader would understand more or less. In other words, like stated case.
I stick by what I said. The purpose of a post is to convey to others what you mean. Jargon, legalese and obscure technical language may (or may not) be precise but if it requires someone to google a word or phrase then it is poor communication.
I like Jonathan Meade because his vocabulary is obscure, but not a style suitable for PH.
Google stated case/case stated and it reveals that it is a phrase in common use and people make certain assumptions about it.
I'm trying to remember the heading used in our files. I think it was Supporting Decisions. I'm not certain, but let's run with it. If I posted that there is a 'supporting decision' would it have been as clear? Possibly but maybe not.
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