E36 M3 saloon or Accord Type-R?

[Pentoman]

scherzkeks said:

Poor handling. Right. As I recall, these cars were typically equal to or faster on a road course than the M3. Though you may not prefer the feel of the S4, a car that truly handles poorly is also a slow car around a road course.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5776738 ---> and that is a B6 S4, with an even bigger V8 "cast iron anchor" hanging off the front end. In compromised vehicles such as performance road-going sedans and hatchbacks, differences in handling often amount to shades of grey. Though the hyperbole here never ceases to amuse.

Unfortunately (especially as it's off topic) I have to say, I remember clearly the launch of the B5 S4. The press, and myself as a reader, were very excited. Here was a successor to the UR Quattro.

But the handling, it was awful. I even remember how Autocar dedicated a special large feature discussing and trying to understand just why it was so bad. It was really depressing . So, I'm pretty sure it's a poor handler in terms of road entertainment. However I also remember the fantastic performance from the engine. And let's face it, 99% of the time the handling doesn't matter. As a plain car - lovely. Still want one. Great interior and straight line performance with lots of tuneability. Just, unfortunately lots of weight in the wrong area. Audi have made huge changes to their engine architecture having acknowledged and tried to fix this problem.

Back on topic... Accord Type-R for me, although I have tried neither. E36 just seems a bit long in the tooth in terms of design.

[scherzkeks]

stevesingo said:

Poor handling. Right indeed.

The fact you manage to dig up the only publication ever to place a B6 S4 ahead of a E46 M3 holds no water when discussing the B5 vs E36.

There is a difference between handling alone, and all the other things that influence pace across the ground and/or on a track, such as traction, brakes, power to weight and ultimate cornering capability.

There are some cars that are very slow across the ground and/or on a track that handle very well indeed.

It holds plenty of water in the context of your hyperbole. Grip, stability, balance, and predictability all fall under the handling umbrella, and a poor handling car is a slow car. Your final statement was never even a topic of debate.

[Debaser]

I'd have an M3 over an Accord. I'd also have an M3 over an S4.

[carl_w]

Debaser said:

I'd have an M3 over an Accord. I'd also have an M3 over an S4.

S4 is substantially cheaper than an M3, which means you can (1) save money, (2) have a newer one for the same price or (3) have a much lower mileage one for the same price. Not really comparing apples with apples.

[stevesingo]

scherzkeks said:

It holds plenty of water in the context of your hyperbole. Grip, stability, balance, and predictability all fall under the handling umbrella, and a poor handling car is a slow car. Your final statement was never even a topic of debate.

Grip? Are you confusing traction, longitudinal grip with lateral grip? Even the article you posted states the E46 has better skid pan performance.

Stability? Yes, under steer is a stable handling trait.

Balance? FYI this is the the chassis ability to have it's attitude changed on it's limit of grip, i.e changing from under steer through neutral to over steer. I don't believe the B5 chassis as ever had this trait due to the inherent under steer.

Predictability? Yes it will under steer, yes the ride will be crashy and yes it will not change direction well.

For all the positive traits a B5 has, don't try and convince the world that they have good handling traits. The rest of the world has already made their mind up.

[Debaser]

carl_w said:

S4 is substantially cheaper than an M3, which means you can (1) save money, (2) have a newer one for the same price or (3) have a much lower mileage one for the same price. Not really comparing apples with apples.

I don't know (or care) what an S4 costs. I was only commenting on it because it was mentioned in the thread.

[Jaaack]

I have an ATR and tbh it's the best car I've driven so far.

Never driven an M3 so can't comment on that, but the Accord Type-R is a seriously well sorted car. Not the quickest thing in a straight line but if I wanted straight line speed on the cheap I'd buy an Astra GSi and turn the boost up. If you get caught in the lower rpm range you'll get left by a remapped VAG TDi. That said, they feel plenty quick enough when on the boil and do pull very nicely in VTEC. They sound damn good too!

Handling is great, just feels like an old school hot hatch (currently running a 1994 Civic VTi) but bigger and more comfy! The LSD is pretty good, never get any wheelspin coming out of junctions etc.

To me the interior is mega luxury but I'm used to rattly old Civics. I don't think it seems loud or uncomfortable on the motorway but again I'm used to Civics on coilovers with performance exhausts...

Mine likes to drink a bit of oil so that's something to keep an eye on. It has done 175k though! 25mpg is my average, and it doesn't seem to matter how I drive it, it does that pretty consistently.

Would recommend an ATR to anyone tbh. Getting rare now too.

[NelsonR32]

carl_w said:

Debaser said:

I'd have an M3 over an Accord. I'd also have an M3 over an S4.

S4 is substantially cheaper than an M3, which means you can (1) save money, (2) have a newer one for the same price or (3) have a much lower mileage one for the same price. Not really comparing apples with apples.

Such comparisons make me chuckle as the S4 is not an M3 rival. The S4 is meant to rival the 330/335 and the RS4 the M3.

[Strugs]

Ecurie Ecosse said:

Some worthy suggestions, but no one has come up with the answer yet.

The X308 XJR. Such performance. Such presence. I miss mine. Even nippier with the pulley upgrade too.

Must confess, I have scanned the Jag section of the classifieds for these and the S Type R..

[scherzkeks]

stevesingo said:

Grip? Are you confusing traction, longitudinal grip with lateral grip? Even the article you posted states the E46 has better skid pan performance.

I've pointed out to you that said terms fall under "handling," since you seemed to indicate that "handling" is something mutually exclusive from those items.

Yes, the M generated .2 g more grip on the skidpad. Are you claiming this supports the idea that the S4 is a "terrible" handler and lacks lateral grip? Who knew the criteria was so narrow and difference between acceptable and inacceptable values so tiny.

stevesingo said:

Stability? Yes, under steer is a stable handling trait.

Your smarm aside,yes, stability is quite an important handling trait to most drivers, as a perpetually oversteery chassis is exhausting to drive, and a loose chassis is usually undesirable when going fast is of interest.

stevesingo said:

Balance? FYI this is the the chassis ability to have it's attitude changed on it's limit of grip, i.e changing from under steer through neutral to over steer. I don't believe the B5 chassis as ever had this trait due to the inherent under steer.

If your sole criteria for balance is the ability to adjust the chassis by overdriving the rear wheels then this discussion is pointless.

stevesingo said:

yes the ride will be crashy and yes it will not change direction well.

I have yet to drive a sports sedan from any of the German manufacturers that I find crashy, but then again I drive them in Germany, where the roads are proper. As for your second bit of snark -- perhaps in your hands.

stevesingo said:

For all the positive traits a B5 has, don't try and convince the world that they have good handling traits. The rest of the world has already made their mind up.

That you claim to speak for the "rest of the world" is a window into your broader mindset so I'll not be wasting anymore time here.

[Steve_F]

My mate had a very well sorted ATR, was a lovely car and the handling was pretty good. They must be up there with the best FWD handling cars.

My 850 T5-R was mapped to c.300bhp and it would pass him in a straight line especially when up to higher speeds but it'd never keep up with him round the corners.

The S Type R on the other hand, 400bhp, the Accord would just get left behind, wouldn't be much difference in corners either as that thing gripped pretty well.

400bhp, 4.2 supercharged V8, in budget, last time I looked prices had risen slightly too. Apart from the looks what's not to like!

[stevesingo]

scherzkeks said:

That you claim to speak for the "rest of the world" is a window into your broader mindset so I'll not be wasting anymore time here.

Quite right, you have wasted enough.

[Hill Hunter]

Hi, I have an M3 Evolution saloon which I am putting up for sale. I’m in West Sussex very near to Gatwick Airport and you would be welcome to drive it. The car is a nice spec from the factory (cosmos black with individual Champaign interior) and also has decent suspension, bushes, clutch and OEM brakes.

A thread can be seen here - http://forums.m3cutters.co.uk/showthread.php?p=135...

I’m after £3.5k for a quick sale, the car has suffered a car park ding to the driver’s door and has 2 green lights left with the next service being an inspection 1. Mechanically the car drives brilliant and being de-badged from the factory is very undercover…

It has long tax and test and is in daily use. Mileage is 111K (I bought it with 92k in March 2013)

I see you have an E30, I do also (E30 with an M52 which you are also welcome to drive;)) so if you are on the E30Zone you may now BSS325i aka Barry. He is a good friend of mine and did a pre purchase inspection on the M3 when I purchased it. He has done all the maintenance in the thread above. More maintenance has been done but not detailed in the thread.

I can get the car up on Barry’s workshop ramp, he also has diagnostics to do VANOS test etc…

Let me know, my number is 07827926855 and my name is Steve.

[V8 Disco]

Just an idea...?

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/h...

This alternative fails the outright performance test against M3 etc. - but having owned one for ten years (from new) I can really recommend as a fantastic compromise between reliabilty, economy, and comfort, all with a reasonably sporting feel to the drive. I have posted elsewhere on PH about mine's incredible reliabilty, but at 176,000 miles, I have still not spent £2000 in repairs over the ten years, and that includes new discs + pads and a reasonable set of aftermarket suspension a couple of years ago. Make sure that if you buy one, that it has had its oil changed on the button (fully synth preferably) as some have had camchain issues when neglected.

This is the one for sale, not mine..

Edited by V8 Disco on Wednesday 23 April 16:05

Edited by V8 Disco on Wednesday 23 April 16:07