Head Gasket Problem ??

[neutral 3]

On first start up this morning, shocked to see a jet of water ( Anti Freeze ) shooting from a pin hole in the left manifold near the large clamped join. Guessing the left bank head gasket has gone.

Power seems slightly down as well. No water in the Mobil 1.

Anyone have a photo of a head gasket and Cylinder head ? And any ideas as to where the gasket may have failed ?

[TVR Beaver]

Are you talking onto the Y part of the exhaust????... it would have to be a lot of water to send a jet from there

[neutral 3]

No, its the header, just next to the alloy swirl pot.

[Pete Mac]

First thing I would do is get yourself down a local garage and get your coolant tested for exhaust gases. I happened to find that my local Halfrauds Garage had a 'sniffer' and he did it for free (Halfrauds went up a bit in my estimation). I was convinced my head gasket had blown but as it happened it hadn't, I just needed to spend more time bleeding the system.

Can't really comment on water in exhaust. Suspicious, are you sure it's anti-freeze? Could it somehow be condensation? Could be head gasket or could be a slipped liner (more serious). You could put a borescope down one of the cylinders to have a look see. I've got one but am in Kazakhstan right now, not back until the 6th June. The following is a good article:

http://rv8r.co.uk/flangedliners.html

Worth having a word with someone like Turner Engineering:

http://turner-engineering.co.uk/html/V8enginesrema...

There is quite a lot on the web with regards to blown head gaskets and if you are getting water in the exhaust then you shold be getting a fair bit of white steam out of the exhaust when the engine is running.

I hope this is helpful, good luck, Pete

[TVR Beaver]

Mmmm... I think the heads can be a bit thin in the exhaust area and can sometimes crack letting coolant into the exhaust port... so let’s hope it’s a head gasket !!!.....
Is your coolant system pressurising up or losing water at all??..

[spend]

Even if you leaked a water mains into the manifold it would come out of the tail pipes ~ can't see it making a pressurized spray out of a pinhole in the manifold.... Is it April 1 ??????

[neutral 3]

Thanks for the replys and to Pete for his detailed reply from "beyond the back of beyond".
And no, it's not ruddy April 1st. Need this like a hole in the head @ the moment.

She boiled up ( bottom hose blew ) in Summer 2010 and then several more times since ( rad burst in 2011, then the water pump hose let go at the toll booths at Dartford late last year and has used a bit of water since 2011.
I have suspected a head gasket may have started to leak because of the boil ups.
When I fired up yesterday, for several seconds it wasn't firing on all 8, but then cleared, I walked round to the near side and was astonished to see a jet of water coming from a pin hole in the left header. Switched off, exhaust paste on the hole and fired up again. White smoke from both tail pipes, which cleared eventually (was a tad chilly yest morn ) .

Took a long drive to Halfords to change their 3 rd battery in 2 years. No real visible exhaust smoke and power still strong but perhaps a tad down ( dreading a 996/997 appearing behind me, but suspect air cleaner service is due again ) .
A pal has suggested one of the pots had water in it, which was then ejected and the now dry spark plug then started working,
hence the miss fire on first start up.

[EGB]

Leave over night or over a day. Remove plugs on near side. Spin motor on starter. If water has drained into a piston pot it will squirt out of a plug hole where head gasket has failed. Wifee to watch which plug hole give's her a squirt !Hope it's not a porous head or a loose liner.

Edited by EGB on Sunday 20th April 19:00

[gavgavgav]

Following the advice above to check, if the cylinder is filling with water if you are lucky it could be the one next to the valley gasket which also has a coolant port?

[Pete Mac]

neutral 3 said:

Need this like a hole in the head @ the moment.

And that was exactly my feeling when I thought my head gasket had blown especially with the summer coming up.

I guess this a step by step process. You need to check exactly what is wrong. You cold do a flow diagram on this one and I don't know how much of this work, if any, you plan to do:

• Get your cooling water checked for exhaust gases (if nothing else Halfords Garage in Reading has a 'sniffer')

• If there is no exhaust gases (best option) then take the opportunity of sorting your cooling system out

• If there is exhaust in the cooling system then you have head gasket sealing problem.

• If it is head gasket, which one. Far more important than actually identifying which cylinder it is. (could check as other threads have said and also check with a compression tester)

• Is it head gasket or slipped liner/porous block (more serious but manageable)

• If it is head gasket alone, will you do the work in-situ or engine out

• If you are taking engine out, will you take the opportunity of doing other work on engine (oil leaks, head work, new cam etc.)?

• Consider giving the whole engine to someone like Turner Engineering or TVR Power and tell them to do everything that needs doing (expensive, could be not much change from £4,500 I reckon)

I hope I am not telling you what you already know but I went through the same thought processes. Good luck, anything I can do to help. As I said I do have a borescope and you can't be that far from me but I am not back for 2 weeks. Pete

[neutral 3]

Morning all and yes EGB, I will shortly try your suggestion of pulling the plugs on the left bank and spinning it over ( and Yes I would dearly love to soak my Ex Wife in ready mixed Halfords pink coolant.....)


Thinking back, ever since the beast first boiled up in July 2010 I have had to top up the system a tad after a blast and had often thought that after several more boil ups that a head gasket must have been leaking slightly.
This car has a huge / great History file and the Engine was last apart in 2000, just before Steve Heath bought it, so the head gaskets are 14 years and 50 odd thousand miles older.

I threw a lot of £ @ it last year ( the clutch master cylinder caused me huge agg ) but if it's a slipped liner or porous block......

[spend]

Sounds to me like you are determined to pull the heads apart..... whatever the problem

If you've had any leak the exhaust ports (and probably plug) would be steam cleaned on the faulty ports... Removing plugs & exhaust manifold should be enough to verify ~ but I sincerely believe you are whistling in the wind. No way is a leaky head gasket / cracked head / porous block going to do anything but blow a bit of invisible steam down the exhaust... A jet of water spurting out of the manifold near the y-piece sounds far more likely like you need specsavers ~ surely it can only have come from swirl pot or pipes ????

If you really want to service the heads that's fine, but attributing a coolant gush / leak to head / block problems is a bit tenuous. Having to continually top up coolant isn't certain either, some of the cars / owners struggle to bleed system & then overfill so it keeps blowing off a bit of coolant (possibly without ever bleeding properly)...

Coolant sniffer, but more likely IMHO a coolant pressure tester should give you enough diagnostic information. I just make a union to screw into the swirl pot with a tyre valve and pump it up with the compressor ~ trickier on pre-serps so make a union for the rad bleed screw That also enables you to test the pressure the cap activates at, which can be a bit of a problem (they're not very accurate ~ and deteriorate the more often they activate it seems).

[Pete Mac]

spend said:

Sounds to me like you are determined to pull the heads apart..... whatever the problem

If you've had any leak the exhaust ports (and probably plug) would be steam cleaned on the faulty ports... Removing plugs & exhaust manifold should be enough to verify ~ but I sincerely believe you are whistling in the wind. No way is a leaky head gasket / cracked head / porous block going to do anything but blow a bit of invisible steam down the exhaust... A jet of water spurting out of the manifold near the y-piece sounds far more likely like you need specsavers ~ surely it can only have come from swirl pot or pipes ????

Dave, because I've just been through this I'm with you.

I convinced myself I had slipped liners when actually I needed to spend time sorting out the cooling system and spent ages bleeding the little bleeder until now it's fine.

I recognise all those symptoms, water loss, bubbles, pool of water under the car in the morning etc.
I made myself a little bleeder out of a funnel and brass connector with a bsp union to fit into the swirl pot. I replaced all the hoses, I lifted the expansion tank above engine level and it worked a treat.

Before you start ripping those heads off, do a few tests or even wait until I'm back and I'll give you a hand. It's not always the worst case scenario.

Good luck, Pete

[Quinny]

Regarding bleeding the coolant system on a Pre serp..... Its one job I never had an issue with..... My simple method was to fill the system through the header tank as normal,.... Then feed a pipe into the header tank and around the neck towards the water pump.... I would then pour water down this pipe...

Back filling this way was always 100% successful at getting rid of any air locks...

[TVR Beaver]

It's not the joint near the Y piece (thats what I thought it was saying in my first post)... it's the manifould to head joint around pot 1.....
However your right... how can this produce a jet of water?.... unless there is a crack in the head into the waterway (outside of the manifould??)... or its twisted the head and its coming out of the head gasket joint??... Maybe pics would help

[neutral 3]

The plot thickens, the front header tank is almost empty and the water level in the swirl pot is about 3 or 4 inches down ( but hard to see exactly ) costing a fortune in ready mixed anti freez.
I pulled the left bank of plugs, span it over and no visible water was ejected from the plug holes. I took a photo of the header and will upload it when time.

I will contact my local garage and see if they have a gas tester for the water. Gutted as it's gorgeous here and I need some much needed stress / hoon relief !

[Quinny]

Have you pulled the plugs....... Well worth checking if any plug has been "steam cleaned"

[Pete Mac]

neutral 3 said:

the front header tank is almost empty and the water level in the swirl pot is about 3 or 4 inches down ( but hard to see exactly )

That sounds fairly normal, mine is as well but it doesn't take much to top it up. It is so important to spend time bleeding the system, your ready made anti-freeze may just be displacing air or alternatively if you are leaving a load of air in the system then it is expanding and blowing your ready made anti-freeze out.

Make yourself up a bleed kit as I described and screw it into the swirl pot. Open up your heater valve and run the engine up to temperature with a few inches of water showing in the funnel of your bleed kit. Constantly squeeze your top hose and all other hoses to pump air out of the system, you may be at it for 20-30 minutes or so and try and get all the bubbles out.

You could undo the expansion pot and lift it to above engine level, taking off the cap and the water will drain out, drop it and the water will start to fill it.

Keep praying and you might find it is an airlock not your head gasket. Pete

[Steve_D]

Pics needed.
Sounds more likely to be the joint between inlet manifold, valley gasket and head. There is a water passage at each end of the heads. The rebuild instructions add a ring of sealant around each passage but none on the rest of the gasket.

Steve

[chris212]

Corroded core plug producing a fine jet onto the electrics?