'ExtraCare' Elderly accommodation
Discussion
I currently have two elderly relatives who are potentially going to be moving into a flat built buy these folk. It's a retirement village so comes complete with a warden, communal gardens, gym etc but the prices aren't cheap and given the way the contracts are written in relation to the provision of care etc I'm intrigued to hear anyones experiences? Some of the charges are eye wateringly expensive so it's essential that everything is as they envisage and it's as good as it's made out to be.
Any experiences or information folk can share about it would be much appreciated.
Cheers!
Any experiences or information folk can share about it would be much appreciated.
Cheers!
madmover said:
I currently have two elderly relatives who are potentially going to be moving into a flat built buy these folk. It's a retirement village so comes complete with a warden, communal gardens, gym etc but the prices aren't cheap and given the way the contracts are written in relation to the provision of care etc I'm intrigued to hear anyones experiences? Some of the charges are eye wateringly expensive so it's essential that everything is as they envisage and it's as good as it's made out to be.
Any experiences or information folk can share about it would be much appreciated.
Cheers!
IIRC Extra Care is usually accommodation for those people that don't need full residential care, but arent able to live completely independently.Any experiences or information folk can share about it would be much appreciated.
Cheers!
Your relatives will have to pay rent and a service charge (just as if they were living in a normal flat). They will also have to pay some care charges to cover the cost of the warden. Depending on your relatives income / assets they may be entitled to Housing benefit to cover part or all of the rent/service charge / care charge.
I have been the finance manager for a couple of these schemes. They are quite nice and possibly the best option if there is nobody else to look after "Mum and dad". Depending on how "luxurious" it is, you'd be looking at £130pw upwards.
Countdown said:
IIRC Extra Care is usually accommodation for those people that don't need full residential care, but arent able to live completely independently.
Your relatives will have to pay rent and a service charge (just as if they were living in a normal flat). They will also have to pay some care charges to cover the cost of the warden. Depending on your relatives income / assets they may be entitled to Housing benefit to cover part or all of the rent/service charge / care charge.
I have been the finance manager for a couple of these schemes. They are quite nice and possibly the best option if there is nobody else to look after "Mum and dad". Depending on how "luxurious" it is, you'd be looking at £130pw upwards.
Indeed, theirs would be noticeably more than that plus £14 per hour per person in care although the latter could rise in the foreseeable future.Your relatives will have to pay rent and a service charge (just as if they were living in a normal flat). They will also have to pay some care charges to cover the cost of the warden. Depending on your relatives income / assets they may be entitled to Housing benefit to cover part or all of the rent/service charge / care charge.
I have been the finance manager for a couple of these schemes. They are quite nice and possibly the best option if there is nobody else to look after "Mum and dad". Depending on how "luxurious" it is, you'd be looking at £130pw upwards.
What's the threshold of assets/income for any potential relief? Is it still 16k savings or less? I'd be very surprised if they were entitled to anything but I'll run through the calculator later on when I see them to check.
Edited by madmover on Sunday 20th April 10:12
entirely private or managed by an RSL ?
as others have said Extra Care is a type of accomodation not the name of the provider - and as has been stated it provides that extra support from 24/7 on site staff above normnal Domicilllary care in your 'own' home ( regardless of tenure)
it refers to what used to be warden controlled accomodation - although the EWTD downgraded the levels of care in most traditional Warden controlled developments as there was one warden or a couple who lived on site and were on call for the vast majority of the week - which meant they didn;t get theior daily and weekly rest periods due to being on call ...
as others have said Extra Care is a type of accomodation not the name of the provider - and as has been stated it provides that extra support from 24/7 on site staff above normnal Domicilllary care in your 'own' home ( regardless of tenure)
it refers to what used to be warden controlled accomodation - although the EWTD downgraded the levels of care in most traditional Warden controlled developments as there was one warden or a couple who lived on site and were on call for the vast majority of the week - which meant they didn;t get theior daily and weekly rest periods due to being on call ...
madmover said:
Indeed, theirs would be noticeably more than that plus £14 per hour per person in care although the latter could rise in the foreseeable future.
What's the threshold of assets/income for any potential relief? Is it still 16k savings or less? I'd be very surprised if they were entitled to anything but I'll run through the calculator later on when I see them to check.
I'm not sure but I agree that it's shockingly expensive hence the majority of the people applying for our scheme were on full HB plus Disability allowance as well. Like you said, the online calculators are probably the best place to start. Also, if there is a Scheme that you're interested in, give the Scheme Manager a phone call. he/she might be able to point you towards what your parents are entitled to.What's the threshold of assets/income for any potential relief? Is it still 16k savings or less? I'd be very surprised if they were entitled to anything but I'll run through the calculator later on when I see them to check.
mph1977 said:
entirely private or managed by an RSL ?
as others have said Extra Care is a type of accomodation not the name of the provider - and as has been stated it provides that extra support from 24/7 on site staff above normnal Domicilllary care in your 'own' home ( regardless of tenure)
it refers to what used to be warden controlled accomodation - although the EWTD downgraded the levels of care in most traditional Warden controlled developments as there was one warden or a couple who lived on site and were on call for the vast majority of the week - which meant they didn;t get theior daily and weekly rest periods due to being on call ...
Extra Care is a provider - a charitable company based in Coventry. Lots of developments in the Midlands.as others have said Extra Care is a type of accomodation not the name of the provider - and as has been stated it provides that extra support from 24/7 on site staff above normnal Domicilllary care in your 'own' home ( regardless of tenure)
it refers to what used to be warden controlled accomodation - although the EWTD downgraded the levels of care in most traditional Warden controlled developments as there was one warden or a couple who lived on site and were on call for the vast majority of the week - which meant they didn;t get theior daily and weekly rest periods due to being on call ...
Measured all the accommodation in one of these types of housing a year ago. I was impressed with that particular home, but also with the whole system. Seemed like a really good idea of how to keep one's independence with the help that they needed, along with safety from those less than honourable.
There are varied definitions of Extra Care used in the market, but the generally accepted versions is that it is supported living for the elderly and generally consistes of s development of self contained 1 or 2 bedroom apartments with shared communal facilities and a base for care workers to operate from.
Generally careworkers are available to deliver care to all of the residents, but the care is paid for separately depending uponneed. Care can range from basic domicilary care to full blown nursing care.
Most extra care developments have a mix of rented units (social housing) and market units. Prior to 2008 the market units subsidised the rented units, since 2008 the rented tend to subsidise the market units except in the high value upmaret developments.
The communal space often includes things such as assisted bathrooms, restaurant/cafe, communal lounges, hairdressing salon, senosry rooms, gyms, and laundrettes.
Most extracare developmenst are managed by housing associations, even where there us a predomninance of sale units, athough again this varies. Services charges are typically high as you are paying towards management of a building where at least 30% of the floor space is non income generating (ie, it isn't an apartment).
The typical extracare model has rented units are circa £120 per week plus service charge, as a rule these will have governmanet subsidy of £45k per unit when it was built. With out subsidy these work out at nearer £175-200 per week.
Since 2008 there have been very few new extracare developments on the traditional model with all the communal space, this is because they just do not stack up without grant from the HCA.
We have debelopbed a model that allows us to build these without grant as long as it is 100% social rented and the first one will be in Solihull.
In many places commissioners are still insisiting on the traditional extracare model with all that additional space, and hence supply is restricted.
Models with a high percentage of sale units are very difficult to fund as you have to carry market risk and a lot of WIP. A typical 80 unit development will cost circa £15-20m to develop. We think we have managed to get 40 unit developments down to about £5m or £6m and this will mean that more can be built and it makes it feaible for people other tand Housing Associations to develop these.
One exceptio to the general rule is the Extra Care Charitable Trust. Their developments are very large (we are doing a 250 uit one for them), and mostly sale units at high prices. Their cost of money is low as the run on donations and have low gearing.
In terms of what Extra Care provides, IMO its an ideal blend of own home and nursing home, a well designed scheme will enable fit healthy people to live as normal and ill people to obtian the nursing care they need. The design of the units is critical in this (we have come up with some unique ideas in terms of unit design).
The apartments are self contained and therefore its possible to split out the accommodation and care costs amking funding simpler and overall cost lower than a nursing home. It means the only care paid for is the care that is needed, rather than a blended cost across all residents. In Soilihull I reckon in accommodation element alone we will save the state something in the order of £200 pwe week per unit/person.
Get it wrong though and as a business model it can be disasterous, I have seen 80 unit developments in prime locations with only 16 apartments occupied after 3 years.
Funding old persons care remains difficult and complicated, unti we get more clarity from Government and better knowledge of the embeeded cost base for elderly in local authorities and NHS we cannot see the whole picture of care costs.
One of our non exec's has the ear of IDS and is promoting a proper rethink at central level.
Generally careworkers are available to deliver care to all of the residents, but the care is paid for separately depending uponneed. Care can range from basic domicilary care to full blown nursing care.
Most extra care developments have a mix of rented units (social housing) and market units. Prior to 2008 the market units subsidised the rented units, since 2008 the rented tend to subsidise the market units except in the high value upmaret developments.
The communal space often includes things such as assisted bathrooms, restaurant/cafe, communal lounges, hairdressing salon, senosry rooms, gyms, and laundrettes.
Most extracare developmenst are managed by housing associations, even where there us a predomninance of sale units, athough again this varies. Services charges are typically high as you are paying towards management of a building where at least 30% of the floor space is non income generating (ie, it isn't an apartment).
The typical extracare model has rented units are circa £120 per week plus service charge, as a rule these will have governmanet subsidy of £45k per unit when it was built. With out subsidy these work out at nearer £175-200 per week.
Since 2008 there have been very few new extracare developments on the traditional model with all the communal space, this is because they just do not stack up without grant from the HCA.
We have debelopbed a model that allows us to build these without grant as long as it is 100% social rented and the first one will be in Solihull.
In many places commissioners are still insisiting on the traditional extracare model with all that additional space, and hence supply is restricted.
Models with a high percentage of sale units are very difficult to fund as you have to carry market risk and a lot of WIP. A typical 80 unit development will cost circa £15-20m to develop. We think we have managed to get 40 unit developments down to about £5m or £6m and this will mean that more can be built and it makes it feaible for people other tand Housing Associations to develop these.
One exceptio to the general rule is the Extra Care Charitable Trust. Their developments are very large (we are doing a 250 uit one for them), and mostly sale units at high prices. Their cost of money is low as the run on donations and have low gearing.
In terms of what Extra Care provides, IMO its an ideal blend of own home and nursing home, a well designed scheme will enable fit healthy people to live as normal and ill people to obtian the nursing care they need. The design of the units is critical in this (we have come up with some unique ideas in terms of unit design).
The apartments are self contained and therefore its possible to split out the accommodation and care costs amking funding simpler and overall cost lower than a nursing home. It means the only care paid for is the care that is needed, rather than a blended cost across all residents. In Soilihull I reckon in accommodation element alone we will save the state something in the order of £200 pwe week per unit/person.
Get it wrong though and as a business model it can be disasterous, I have seen 80 unit developments in prime locations with only 16 apartments occupied after 3 years.
Funding old persons care remains difficult and complicated, unti we get more clarity from Government and better knowledge of the embeeded cost base for elderly in local authorities and NHS we cannot see the whole picture of care costs.
One of our non exec's has the ear of IDS and is promoting a proper rethink at central level.
Ali_D said:
mph1977 said:
entirely private or managed by an RSL ?
as others have said Extra Care is a type of accomodation not the name of the provider - and as has been stated it provides that extra support from 24/7 on site staff above normnal Domicilllary care in your 'own' home ( regardless of tenure)
it refers to what used to be warden controlled accomodation - although the EWTD downgraded the levels of care in most traditional Warden controlled developments as there was one warden or a couple who lived on site and were on call for the vast majority of the week - which meant they didn;t get theior daily and weekly rest periods due to being on call ...
Extra Care is a provider - a charitable company based in Coventry. Lots of developments in the Midlands.as others have said Extra Care is a type of accomodation not the name of the provider - and as has been stated it provides that extra support from 24/7 on site staff above normnal Domicilllary care in your 'own' home ( regardless of tenure)
it refers to what used to be warden controlled accomodation - although the EWTD downgraded the levels of care in most traditional Warden controlled developments as there was one warden or a couple who lived on site and were on call for the vast majority of the week - which meant they didn;t get theior daily and weekly rest periods due to being on call ...
'The extra care charitable trust' is one provider of such accomodation ...
mph1977 said:
Ali_D said:
mph1977 said:
entirely private or managed by an RSL ?
as others have said Extra Care is a type of accomodation not the name of the provider - and as has been stated it provides that extra support from 24/7 on site staff above normnal Domicilllary care in your 'own' home ( regardless of tenure)
it refers to what used to be warden controlled accomodation - although the EWTD downgraded the levels of care in most traditional Warden controlled developments as there was one warden or a couple who lived on site and were on call for the vast majority of the week - which meant they didn;t get theior daily and weekly rest periods due to being on call ...
Extra Care is a provider - a charitable company based in Coventry. Lots of developments in the Midlands.as others have said Extra Care is a type of accomodation not the name of the provider - and as has been stated it provides that extra support from 24/7 on site staff above normnal Domicilllary care in your 'own' home ( regardless of tenure)
it refers to what used to be warden controlled accomodation - although the EWTD downgraded the levels of care in most traditional Warden controlled developments as there was one warden or a couple who lived on site and were on call for the vast majority of the week - which meant they didn;t get theior daily and weekly rest periods due to being on call ...
'The extra care charitable trust' is one provider of such accomodation ...
NPI said:
mph1977 said:
Ali_D said:
mph1977 said:
entirely private or managed by an RSL ?
as others have said Extra Care is a type of accomodation not the name of the provider - and as has been stated it provides that extra support from 24/7 on site staff above normnal Domicilllary care in your 'own' home ( regardless of tenure)
it refers to what used to be warden controlled accomodation - although the EWTD downgraded the levels of care in most traditional Warden controlled developments as there was one warden or a couple who lived on site and were on call for the vast majority of the week - which meant they didn;t get theior daily and weekly rest periods due to being on call ...
Extra Care is a provider - a charitable company based in Coventry. Lots of developments in the Midlands.as others have said Extra Care is a type of accomodation not the name of the provider - and as has been stated it provides that extra support from 24/7 on site staff above normnal Domicilllary care in your 'own' home ( regardless of tenure)
it refers to what used to be warden controlled accomodation - although the EWTD downgraded the levels of care in most traditional Warden controlled developments as there was one warden or a couple who lived on site and were on call for the vast majority of the week - which meant they didn;t get theior daily and weekly rest periods due to being on call ...
'The extra care charitable trust' is one provider of such accomodation ...
HA - Housing Association, may or may not be Registered with the Homes and Communities Agency (HCA), a registered one will be an RSL. Un registered means more difficult access to exempt rents etc
ALMO - Arms length management organisation, usually Local Authority and Tenant joint management of an RSL or an HA
Direct LA - Run directly by the Local Authority, rarely used for extracare, more common for old style nursing homes, gradually being replaced by private sector and HA run.
VEX said:
Slightly off topic Blueg33,
But it would be great to talk to you about some of the basic tech I have access to that can easily be scaled up and down for assisted living project, depending on the owner / residents requirements.
Let me know if its of interest.
V.
Happy to talk, can you send me a pm with contact details?But it would be great to talk to you about some of the basic tech I have access to that can easily be scaled up and down for assisted living project, depending on the owner / residents requirements.
Let me know if its of interest.
V.
We do have a specialist advising us on adaptive and assistive tech but are always happy to see whast is out there.
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