Standard brakes 2006.

Standard brakes 2006.

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Discussion

Manchestergas

Original Poster:

67 posts

138 months

Monday 21st April 2014
quotequote all
So it's my first Caterham and have a question regarding the brakes!

Are the standard ones fit for purpose in your eyes?
How do you find the bite on them?

My mum had a 1.25 fiesta and the brakes are considerably better than my Caterham.
This is rather worrying as the Caterham has only done 4k so the disks and pads look immaculate, non are stuck on and the car only weights 550kg. I just don't quite like the feel, it's kind of like stamping on the brakes, throw the anker overboard and wait for it to start slowing while you frantically select the gear below to help slow the car down if the brakes don't quite make it in time. I'm no racing driver by any means but they don't instil confidence at all.
I Can't afford a big brake upgrade but wonder if there is maybe a better pad that some

Manchestergas

Original Poster:

67 posts

138 months

Monday 21st April 2014
quotequote all
  1. . folk use

Canuck7

64 posts

128 months

Monday 21st April 2014
quotequote all
Hi...

Short answer;
In all my research, it appears that the magic bullet is Mintex 1144 Pads up front for better coefficient of friction, and still having cold bite, as well as a bit of higher end performance. Stock pads in back, or something very similar but better quality, seems to work well in conjunction with Mintex 1144 up front when stock calipers are used all round.

Long answer;
The stock brake setup is a little bit biased to the rear, (ie. more braking in rear than needed.) So it is good to get a slightly stickier pad up front, than in the rear. The brakes don't get very hot, and we don't have a lot of mechanical advantage with them and no power assist, so a sticky-ish pad with good cold bite is useful.
Mintex 1144 are the traditional old-school answer to this problem for road car use, and some light track days. There may be better compounds available now. Many of the ceramic pads have an incredible heat range and good initial bite. Some of the carbon-metallic pads are supposed to have great feel.
Examples of good Suitable pads;
-Fast Road;
Pagid Blue, Mintex 1144, Caterham Blue dot (rear), Ferodo 2500 (maybe), EBC Red(that opens a can of worms, I know - but it seems the newest stuff does what it says, though may not be very consistent in quality).
-Fast Road/Track;
Pagid RS14, RS15 (may be too torquey for less sticky and/or narrow tires), Ferodo 2500, EBC Yellow (worms again), Performance friction PF01. The Pagid RS5 looks suitable, as well, but I don't know if they make them in the correct pad shape.
-Track;
Ferodo 3000, Pagid RS14 rear, RS15 front (especially with sticky tires and a race master cylinder), EBC Blue, Perhaps the Mintex 1155(?), Mintex F4R. Performance Friction PF01... and any other race pads that might fit.

So the classic and newer possible pad combinations for stock calipers, from what I've read and calculated;
Mintex 1144 front, stock rear
Mintex 1144 front, and maybe blue dot rear (bias issues?)
Pagid blue up front, mintex 1144 rear (has anyone tried this?)
EBC yellow front, red rear (worms, of course) :-)
RS15 front, RS14 rear (many people like this, also many people find the front brakes just lock up right away and feel wooden. This may be due to different master cylinders and tire types and driving styles)
Ferodo 2500 front, mintex 1144 or blue dot, rear.

You are correct in thinking a small light car should stop reasonably well. There are a couple issues to consider first;
- The lack of power brakes and becoming accustomed to that.
- Braking system problems.
- Tires

To quote some racecar personage; "Brakes don't stop the car, tires do". An important point I also make (in a different way) when teaching mtn. bikers. If your tires are old, and have hard rubber, they can't do what the brakes ask them to do. All vehicles are limited/guided by their tires in their parameters.

We have been spoiled by driving cars with vacuum assist/power everything everywhere, and it does take a bit of "oomph" to make the standard brakes work, in comparison. That can take getting used to. Someone on here once said something like they, "have to smack the brake pedal" to get the feeling they want. So you may need to experiment a bit with technique, and give it some time to adjust to.

If the car feels really weak, there could be a couple classic issues, or more.
The rear calipers are on a solid brake pipe (usually), this limits the float of the caliper a wee bit... some people find that when the rear pads wear past about 50%, the rear brakes "jam" more, and become less effective, due to the brake pipe and the sliding caliper design. The rear pads certainly tend to wear in an imbalanced manner.
If the brakes haven't been bedded in properly recently, they may have scraped all transfer layer off the discs, and are harder to stop. The brake pads may even have been glazed by years of light braking, and need some roughing up. They may even be contaminated by oils or something. (Check for small brake fluid leaks, maybe someone who bled the brakes got fluid on the pads?)
If the car has been driven very infrequently previously, the calipers may all be sticking on the posts they slide on, or the pistons in their bores.
You may also have a car that came with track racing pads, that will feel like greased bricks till you get the calipers up to 300 degrees and bed them in... and still feel like wood when cold, after that. That happened to one person on here, they bought a car that had RS15s up front, reasonable pads in rear, and the front either locked up, or did nothing. (too much front bias, and cold race pads).

Anyway, I hope this helps in opening you up to the complications of caterham brake design, and options. I know of a few people who loved the difference in the big brake kit, yet the racers do great with the stock brakes and decent pads. I have AP big brakes, and a very healthy brake system, yet I feel I have to push pretty hard to get some stopping action. When the brakes are cold I do have to hit them pretty hard, and any one of my wheels may lock up for a 1/4 second at random. I'm going to play with pads and brake pedal lever ratios this spring, to get things feeling better. My daily driver is a Subaru STi with power brakes that are hooked to rather burly brembo 4 piston brakes, so that spoils me. They've also saved my car from becoming a bit shorter, a couple times, too. Nothing like having good brakes.

Gingerbread Man

9,171 posts

212 months

Monday 21st April 2014
quotequote all
My mother's 1.25 Fiesta which I used to buzz around in. Pretty sure it's discs up front and drums on the rear.

The Fiestas brakes are power assisted, so as the Cats aren't, it'll feel a different setup to start will.

The 7 has discs all round and is lighter. You might not have come across it yet, but a hard slam on the brakes tends to kick the back out. A recently discussed thread on mixing pads so the front bites better helps settle this out.

Some upgrade to 'big brakes' but once accustomed, they serve their purpose. The upgrades still aren't power assisted.

grenpayne

1,972 posts

161 months

Monday 21st April 2014
quotequote all
I've also got Mintex 1144 pads on the fronts and although I've got the AP 4 pots, rather than the standard brakes, they work fearsomely well. As Canuck7 says they give great braking from cold with good feel. They've also been on the car over 3 years and have loads of life left! Definitely recommended.

framerateuk

2,730 posts

183 months

Monday 21st April 2014
quotequote all
I have the big brakes on mine, and compared to a normal car with servo assisted brakes, you have to press them pretty hard to stop the car!

You can't expect that strong initial bite that you get in a normal car since all the braking power is down to how hard you're willing to press the pedal, and how soon that servo kicked in.

I had the (dis)pleasure of having to drive an Insigna recently. Compared to my Megane, the brakes were rubbish, but they were incredibly jumpy. The servo was very sensitive and kicked in a lot of braking with very little pedal travel. The Caterham is the exact opposite. A little pressure will do pretty much nothing, you need to stomp on it pretty hard, even with the big brakes. The stopping power is there, it's just quite different to your usual tin-top!

BertBert

18,929 posts

210 months

Monday 21st April 2014
quotequote all
I'd start by locking the brakes. Obviously an not too high a speed and in a safe environment, what does it feel like to press them hard enough for them to lock. If you can get the wheels to lock then you have found out how they work at the limit.

What does the pedal feel like when you do this? Hard as a rock or softer with travel?

Bert

carphotographer

500 posts

194 months

Monday 21st April 2014
quotequote all
I'm a new caterham owner, but I don't have any issues with the braking performance compared to my last 2 cars, a very early Elise with the aluminium matrix discs and a newer S1.
As a complete novice, I talked about brake pads to the dealer who sold me the 7 and he said the standard pads are fine. He has a couple of years of racing Caterhams.
I guess of you do lots of track days and have something a bit quicker then a standard Roadsport it might be worth looking in brake pad compounds.

downsman

1,099 posts

155 months

Monday 21st April 2014
quotequote all
My 2010 Roadsport is on standard pads. The standard brakes work very well, if anything I have found the fronts lock before the rears and on track days at Goodwood they have held up well. As has been said, I'm pretty sure it is due to the difference with modern over servoed systems. Find a quiet road and stamp on the pedal. If you aren't thrown forward against the belts you have something wrong in the system.

Manchestergas

Original Poster:

67 posts

138 months

Monday 21st April 2014
quotequote all
Thanks for all the responses, don't get me wrong they work and I understand its on foot pressure only I will give it a go and see what happens.


Kghaas

173 posts

150 months

Wednesday 23rd April 2014
quotequote all
Canuck7 said:
Hi...

Short answer;
In all my research, it appears that the magic bullet is Mintex 1144 Pads up front for better coefficient of friction, and still having cold bite, as well as a bit of higher end performance. Stock pads in back, or something very similar but better quality, seems to work well in conjunction with Mintex 1144 up front when stock calipers are used all round.

Long answer;
The stock brake setup is a little bit biased to the rear, (ie. more braking in rear than needed.) So it is good to get a slightly stickier pad up front, than in.
Thanks for putting this long answer together!
Some really good info here.

Canuck7

64 posts

128 months

Thursday 24th April 2014
quotequote all
Kghaas said:
Thanks for putting this long answer together!
Some really good info here.
You're welcome!

I've been lurking on the various Caterham sites for three years, and spent the last year trying to figure out all the problems and various modifications for the braking system. I've even done all the math, and such. So I tried to put together a quick list of the pertinent bits that seem to be seen as a truism for the average caterham, and were relevant to the OP's question and probable needs. Even distilled it adds up to a lot of words.

Thanks to all you chaps over the years who have been kind enough to write down and share your knowledge. Some real little gems on here.

I'm still considering a total change of the rear calipers for my car; but will try out PF01 pads in my front AP 4 pots, and flexible brake hoses in back with EBC reds on the stock rear calipers, before I do anything more major. I have a feeling I'll need RS-14s in back... but the proof of the pudding is in the eating, or something like that. (...and EBC reds are a lot cheaper to experiment with, lol)
I'm also running the AP upgrade racing master cylinder - which gives great feel but sure takes more work. The old one was decades old, so I decided it was safer to change it.
Someday soon I'll post up about some of my major brake modification ideas, and see what people know/think about them. I wish I had Mickrick's (?) brake setup. The stuff he has had made, is perfect. :-) I wonder if those places could make me a system based on his??? Hmmm, better not go there, I'd have to sell my house to pay for it all, in the end. :-D

kinderrr

46 posts

109 months

Wednesday 9th September 2015
quotequote all
Hi looking for pads my self for my Cat k1,6 from 1996 is that the Mintex Pattern MDB2027 you were referring too?
regards Michael



Canuck7 said:
Hi...

Short answer;
In all my research, it appears that the magic bullet is Mintex 1144 Pads up front for better coefficient of friction, and still having cold bite, as well as a bit of higher end performance. Stock pads in back, or something very similar but better quality, seems to work well in conjunction with Mintex 1144 up front when stock calipers are used all round.

Long answer;
The stock brake setup is a little bit biased to the rear, (ie. more braking in rear than needed.) So it is good to get a slightly stickier pad up front, than in the rear. The brakes don't get very hot, and we don't have a lot of mechanical advantage with them and no power assist, so a sticky-ish pad with good cold bite is useful.
Mintex 1144 are the traditional old-school answer to this problem for road car use, and some light track days. There may be better compounds available now. Many of the ceramic pads have an incredible heat range and good initial bite. Some of the carbon-metallic pads are supposed to have great feel.
Examples of good Suitable pads;
-Fast Road;
Pagid Blue, Mintex 1144, Caterham Blue dot (rear), Ferodo 2500 (maybe), EBC Red(that opens a can of worms, I know - but it seems the newest stuff does what it says, though may not be very consistent in quality).
-Fast Road/Track;
Pagid RS14, RS15 (may be too torquey for less sticky and/or narrow tires), Ferodo 2500, EBC Yellow (worms again), Performance friction PF01. The Pagid RS5 looks suitable, as well, but I don't know if they make them in the correct pad shape.
-Track;
Ferodo 3000, Pagid RS14 rear, RS15 front (especially with sticky tires and a race master cylinder), EBC Blue, Perhaps the Mintex 1155(?), Mintex F4R. Performance Friction PF01... and any other race pads that might fit.

So the classic and newer possible pad combinations for stock calipers, from what I've read and calculated;
Mintex 1144 front, stock rear
Mintex 1144 front, and maybe blue dot rear (bias issues?)
Pagid blue up front, mintex 1144 rear (has anyone tried this?)
EBC yellow front, red rear (worms, of course) :-)
RS15 front, RS14 rear (many people like this, also many people find the front brakes just lock up right away and feel wooden. This may be due to different master cylinders and tire types and driving styles)
Ferodo 2500 front, mintex 1144 or blue dot, rear.

You are correct in thinking a small light car should stop reasonably well. There are a couple issues to consider first;
- The lack of power brakes and becoming accustomed to that.
- Braking system problems.
- Tires

To quote some racecar personage; "Brakes don't stop the car, tires do". An important point I also make (in a different way) when teaching mtn. bikers. If your tires are old, and have hard rubber, they can't do what the brakes ask them to do. All vehicles are limited/guided by their tires in their parameters.

We have been spoiled by driving cars with vacuum assist/power everything everywhere, and it does take a bit of "oomph" to make the standard brakes work, in comparison. That can take getting used to. Someone on here once said something like they, "have to smack the brake pedal" to get the feeling they want. So you may need to experiment a bit with technique, and give it some time to adjust to.

If the car feels really weak, there could be a couple classic issues, or more.
The rear calipers are on a solid brake pipe (usually), this limits the float of the caliper a wee bit... some people find that when the rear pads wear past about 50%, the rear brakes "jam" more, and become less effective, due to the brake pipe and the sliding caliper design. The rear pads certainly tend to wear in an imbalanced manner.
If the brakes haven't been bedded in properly recently, they may have scraped all transfer layer off the discs, and are harder to stop. The brake pads may even have been glazed by years of light braking, and need some roughing up. They may even be contaminated by oils or something. (Check for small brake fluid leaks, maybe someone who bled the brakes got fluid on the pads?)
If the car has been driven very infrequently previously, the calipers may all be sticking on the posts they slide on, or the pistons in their bores.
You may also have a car that came with track racing pads, that will feel like greased bricks till you get the calipers up to 300 degrees and bed them in... and still feel like wood when cold, after that. That happened to one person on here, they bought a car that had RS15s up front, reasonable pads in rear, and the front either locked up, or did nothing. (too much front bias, and cold race pads).

Anyway, I hope this helps in opening you up to the complications of caterham brake design, and options. I know of a few people who loved the difference in the big brake kit, yet the racers do great with the stock brakes and decent pads. I have AP big brakes, and a very healthy brake system, yet I feel I have to push pretty hard to get some stopping action. When the brakes are cold I do have to hit them pretty hard, and any one of my wheels may lock up for a 1/4 second at random. I'm going to play with pads and brake pedal lever ratios this spring, to get things feeling better. My daily driver is a Subaru STi with power brakes that are hooked to rather burly brembo 4 piston brakes, so that spoils me. They've also saved my car from becoming a bit shorter, a couple times, too. Nothing like having good brakes.

Canuck7

64 posts

128 months

Wednesday 9th September 2015
quotequote all
Hi;
For the AP racing 4 piston front brakes, I believe that MDB2027 is the correct pad. I have never used them myself, so can't be 100% certain, but they are listed as such here;

https://www.meteormotorsport.com/shop/caterham/min...

As an update; Another owner with a lot of track experimentation really likes the Corbonne Lorainne (now known as CL) RC6 pads. They have a quite high cold friction level, and quite stable friction over temperature changes. They run about a 0.50 coefficient. Quite high for a streetable pad. He says they don't squeal, and have excellent cold bite, despite being very track oriented.

To provide an update for My brake pad experiment, consisting of Performance Friction PF01 pads up front in AP 4 pots, and EBC reds in back in stock sierra calipers...
I've only done about 800 kms on them, so not really bedded in properly, but there are no issues, and they are certainly far better than the old discontinued mintex road pads.
No squealing at all, super smooth consistent bite up front, tolerant of sudden pedal pressure changes without grabbing, repeatable feel. I think the feel stays quite consistent hot or cold - but I can't be sure I can get a caterham's brakes actually hot, lol. I can do 60 kms of mountain road and only hit the brakes twice, so... lol. (man, these cars have total disdain for corners...)
The EBC red pads in the rear don't squeak, are bedding in smoothly, and are stickier than the stock pads and work great cold. I haven't pulled anything off to check them, but no signs of any obviously nasty chunking or anything. They certainly help the handbrake work better.
Brake dust is fairly equal front/back, the EBC reds maybe making a bit more right now - though I think they do that as they work through their bedding coating - it should get better later on.

I wouldn't mind going to something a bit stickier all round, eg. about a 0.50 to 0.55 coefficient of friction, to give me a bit less work to do, and a bit quicker bite, but the PF01's certainly are smooth and won't get you into trouble.

I put Pagid RS-14s into my Subrau STi's brembos, and they are very sticky, amazing initial bite, but they do chuckle and murmur at low speed stops, and when slightly warm. Not enough or loud enough to really bother me, but the car isn't quiet. People walking by probably think I need new pads. I think caterham brakes might be better at controlling squeal, though.

The stickier pad options (ie. ~0.50+) would consist of EBC yellow, CL RC6, Ferodo 3000 (but they may need too much heat or not be legal for European roads), and Pagid RS-15/RS-14 combo. (I found Ferodo 2500 pads to be a disappointment on the subaru.)

Hope this helps a bit more. :-)