HADECS 3 cameras on the M25
Discussion
mybrainhurts said:
speedyguy said:
Carl_Docklands said:
If they are safety cameras, I would prefer to see the speed cameras clearly identified separately in
I'll stick my head above the parapet with the unpopular view, They are traffic management cameras not safety cameras, if people don't follow the signals set automatically by the loops in the road monitoring traffic speeds (and now radar instead as tech has moved on) used to try and maintain a steady traffic flow throughput by education the next step is enforcement to meet the required aim? The same happens in all sorts of things, many on PH love being 'educated' by the BIB rather than the enforcement even though they may not agree with it.
The ordinal purpose of the motorways etc ie Srn (strategic road network) was for long purpose journeys to enable quicker long distance journeys, there seems to be a misnomer that motorways are provided as a FREE alternative to track days where did that come from ? People too tight to pay to blat around on track days.
Things have moved on massively since the inception with traffic numbers, junctions too close together encouraging commuter traffic onto the motorway with associated weaving, vehicle spacing and braking issues so what do we do? Start closing junctions and taking motorways back to their original purpose and creating chaos on local roads or have 'demand' measures in place to enable everyone to rub along together and make the best of an overcrowded bad job where we are already losing billions a year due to congestion, much of it unnecessary ie rear end shunts, debris, ie thousands of lorry straps, bikes, canoes etc dropped on the carriageway causing mayhem.
If you have a better idea thinking about 'the bigger picture' feel free to stick it on a postcard
Or go on a trackday
The M1 variables around Luton at 15.00 today had hard shoulder open with all lanes at 60. Traffic was VERY LIGHT.
At other times, the hard shoulder is shut in conditions of very heavy traffic.
It's also fun when a gantry malfunctions and suddenly switches to 20, quickly followed by red crosses over lanes 1 to 3, with 20 remaining in lane 4.
However, they will, I imagine, generate a lot of money for HMG.
Edited by mybrainhurts on Sunday 15th June 03:31
Plus, I was run onto the hard shoulder by an HGV driver who closed the gap between himself and the car he was following as I was trying to slot into it. I don't know if he had the conscious thought process that I should have carried on along the hard shoulder, even though hard shoulder running wasn't active, if he wasn't paying attention or if he was just a mindless idiot. Being able to accelerate ahead of the car would have been simpler than aiming for a gap in front of an HGV, and what I would have normally done, but I didn't want to accelerate hard under a camera.
It's not a matter of wanting to use motorways as race tracks. There's a bigger picture to using motorways safely and practically than rigidly sticking to a set speed despite the need to avoid what's around you or the desire to take advantage when the carriageway is nearly empty of traffic. A system which creates a bigger problem of traffic bunching, shunts and vehicles stopped in live lanes is only creating more congestion and danger. No doubt many computer models said the managed motorways would help everything flow but human beings with free will, selfish desire and frustration don't behave like computer simulations do. All the time they're being hemmed in and slowed down they're itching to barge through and go faster. What we need is more space to allow traffic to flow freely, which is what the motorways originally provided.
What some places have is expressways with very few junctions and further carriageways to the outside of them with junctions at every town. You join the outer carriageway, move across to the faster inner carriageway and then move back to the outer one at the next way across before the junction you want to exit at. The traffic on the inner carriageway can then move fast and unimpeded by traffic joining and exiting at junctions every couple of miles. Of course you need a lot of land for that. Some countries have double decker motorways for the same purpose.
Certainly if we're losing billions a year and spending billions on systems that don't do what they're supposed to when they do work, and frequently try to get people killed by malfunctioning, we should be looking at investing in widening motorways, or even going double decker, where we can allow traffic to flow smoothly.
Dairymilk said:
Carl_Docklands said:
I don't have a problem with variable speed limits, especially the ones on the M1 at Luton and the M25 at Heathrow.
My point was, is that I don't class the Tonbridge section of the M25 in the same vein that those two sections and should not be subject to the same rules as those pinch points as it will cause more congestion.
Speedguy, talking about what to call the cameras is just pedantic, my other point was that I just want the cameras that do the different jobs clearly identified, I don't care what they are called or what you call them. When I see a line of 10 cameras, the speed ones should be yellow !
Why?My point was, is that I don't class the Tonbridge section of the M25 in the same vein that those two sections and should not be subject to the same rules as those pinch points as it will cause more congestion.
Speedguy, talking about what to call the cameras is just pedantic, my other point was that I just want the cameras that do the different jobs clearly identified, I don't care what they are called or what you call them. When I see a line of 10 cameras, the speed ones should be yellow !
The regulations decree that:
Speed camera housings must be coloured yellow
Camera housings cannot be obscured, e.g. by trees, bushes or signs
Cameras must be visible from 60m away in 40mph or less zones and 100m for all other speed limit zones
Camera sites are to be reviewed at least every six months in order to ensure that cameras are adequately visible and signed"
I don't know or care much if motorway cameras operate under a different policy, my point is that at least on this section of the m25 they should.
They should not be sneakily mounted on the back of an overhead gantry, painted in the same colour as the 50 or so cameras you have just passed, in and around this newly refreshed Tonbridge section of the M25.
It's only this section of motorway changes that have got on my wick and feel the need to post about it, i am not against cameras per-se I just think they were not needed on this area of the M25, if you are going to fit them there, don't stick them on 70mph and cause a problem that was not there previously.
havoc said:
Whilst I don't particularly like the way they're used, I CAN see the benefit of the variable limit strategy* at the BUSIEST points. However...
1) As above, the Clacketts Lane stretch is far from the busiest point on the M25...confused why they've implemented it there...
2) The HADECS are ALWAYS on - they enforce the 70** limit AND the variable limits. This is the game-changer that most people are (IMHO rightly) moaning about.
* Unlike SPECS, which I believe breeds inappropriate and occasionally dangerous behaviours in drivers.
** Up until now, NEVER strictly enforced anywhere in the M-way limit - Trafpol have repeatedly stated that an otherwise well-behaved car, in the right conditions, will be left alone at north of 80mph. And note that Euro limits are almost all 75 or 80mph, often for 2-lane M-ways not the 3-4 lane ones we enjoy...
But to my knowledge they don't enforce the 70 limit, yet anyway, & unless anyone knows different no one has said they are going to enforce the 70 limit. It was said that they can enforce the 70 limit, not that they do enforce it. 1) As above, the Clacketts Lane stretch is far from the busiest point on the M25...confused why they've implemented it there...
2) The HADECS are ALWAYS on - they enforce the 70** limit AND the variable limits. This is the game-changer that most people are (IMHO rightly) moaning about.
* Unlike SPECS, which I believe breeds inappropriate and occasionally dangerous behaviours in drivers.
** Up until now, NEVER strictly enforced anywhere in the M-way limit - Trafpol have repeatedly stated that an otherwise well-behaved car, in the right conditions, will be left alone at north of 80mph. And note that Euro limits are almost all 75 or 80mph, often for 2-lane M-ways not the 3-4 lane ones we enjoy...
mygoldfishbowl said:
But to my knowledge they don't enforce the 70 limit, yet anyway, & unless anyone knows different no one has said they are going to enforce the 70 limit. It was said that they can enforce the 70 limit, not that they do enforce it.
OK, so what are they there for?- The existing gantry cameras can effectively enforce the variable limits, so no need to duplicate;
- They ARE radar-style speed cameras;
- They wouldn't just be erected for fun.
...the only logical conclusion is that they intend, in these spots, to enforce A limit, outwith the variable limit enforcement. No that may not be 70 - they could set it to anywhere between there and 100. But the very presence of it, regardless of actual setting, will effectively enforce the 70-limit.
They could enforce the 70 with the existing gantry cameras if they wanted to, if they wanted to they could put specs along every inch of motorway. I don't know why they are there but it could be to do with testing & then they may be used instead of having one camera for each lane. They may be used in the future to enforce the 70 limit but to my knowledge they are not doing so now.
I went to Gatwick Last night, both sides, flashing like Christmas ..
Interesting prior, there was a yellow 60 in a red circle .. yet at the camera sites it was white 60 in red circle ie obey...
So I wonder if the other yellow font signs are illegal .. since I though 'yellow was advisory ...
Or have I got that all wrong
Interesting prior, there was a yellow 60 in a red circle .. yet at the camera sites it was white 60 in red circle ie obey...
So I wonder if the other yellow font signs are illegal .. since I though 'yellow was advisory ...
Or have I got that all wrong
Carl_Docklands said:
Dairymilk said:
Carl_Docklands said:
I don't have a problem with variable speed limits, especially the ones on the M1 at Luton and the M25 at Heathrow.
My point was, is that I don't class the Tonbridge section of the M25 in the same vein that those two sections and should not be subject to the same rules as those pinch points as it will cause more congestion.
Speedguy, talking about what to call the cameras is just pedantic, my other point was that I just want the cameras that do the different jobs clearly identified, I don't care what they are called or what you call them. When I see a line of 10 cameras, the speed ones should be yellow !
Why?My point was, is that I don't class the Tonbridge section of the M25 in the same vein that those two sections and should not be subject to the same rules as those pinch points as it will cause more congestion.
Speedguy, talking about what to call the cameras is just pedantic, my other point was that I just want the cameras that do the different jobs clearly identified, I don't care what they are called or what you call them. When I see a line of 10 cameras, the speed ones should be yellow !
The regulations decree that:
Speed camera housings must be coloured yellow
Camera housings cannot be obscured, e.g. by trees, bushes or signs
Cameras must be visible from 60m away in 40mph or less zones and 100m for all other speed limit zones
Camera sites are to be reviewed at least every six months in order to ensure that cameras are adequately visible and signed"
I don't know or care much if motorway cameras operate under a different policy, my point is that at least on this section of the m25 they should.
They should not be sneakily mounted on the back of an overhead gantry, painted in the same colour as the 50 or so cameras you have just passed, in and around this newly refreshed Tonbridge section of the M25.
It's only this section of motorway changes that have got on my wick and feel the need to post about it, i am not against cameras per-se I just think they were not needed on this area of the M25, if you are going to fit them there, don't stick them on 70mph and cause a problem that was not there previously.
There has never been a "law" that states that cameras should be painted yellow. You were getting close with rules and guidance as they were produced by DfT and were rules for claiming back the costs of running and purchasing the cameras. They still didn't 'have to be painted yellow' but they were mostly painted yellow.
Those rules were rescinded in April 2007 by the labour government and the conservative government don't concern themselves at all about speed cameras.
Cameras can be covered by trees, bushes and signs if the authority operating them wish to do that. It isn't a good idea to cover them with bushes and trees as it tends to cock the operation of them up somewhat.
The reason cameras need to be visible at 60m up to 40mph limit and 100m above 40mph limit is so motorists don't crash into them. I think that is a really good idea. It is not to give a driver a chance to see them and slow down before they are caught. In any case for mobile cameras I would be having a word with operators who waited until vehicles were that close before potting them.
Camera sites need no signing, need not be reviewed every 6 months and for that matter can be placed just anywhere there is a lawful speed limit. Why wouldn't they?
Cameras are of no concern to motorists who are responsible enough to take heed of the law and who comply with the terms on which their driving licence was granted to them. It is apparent that you are not one of those.
I had replies from both departments after I complained to the Highways Agency about the road surface and the speed cameras flashing like disco lights on the widened section of the M25 near Clacket's .
The cameras were awaiting calibration, now done.
The road is to be resurfaced .
I had also complained about the road markings being very confusing when the road was wet in bright sunlight due to the multitude of old painted over markings showing up the same as the new markings.
They had even checked this in the conditions I had mentioned , will be solved by the reurfacing, so more disruption to come in this area.
The cameras were awaiting calibration, now done.
The road is to be resurfaced .
I had also complained about the road markings being very confusing when the road was wet in bright sunlight due to the multitude of old painted over markings showing up the same as the new markings.
They had even checked this in the conditions I had mentioned , will be solved by the reurfacing, so more disruption to come in this area.
Based on the link below, looks like the Bristol HADECS has been switched on .. so I suspect the M25 will be shortly around J5 to J6
http://www.pocketgpsworld.com/modules.php?name=For...
http://www.pocketgpsworld.com/modules.php?name=For...
Dairymilk said:
Carl_Docklands said:
Dairymilk said:
Carl_Docklands said:
I don't have a problem with variable speed limits, especially the ones on the M1 at Luton and the M25 at Heathrow.
My point was, is that I don't class the Tonbridge section of the M25 in the same vein that those two sections and should not be subject to the same rules as those pinch points as it will cause more congestion.
Speedguy, talking about what to call the cameras is just pedantic, my other point was that I just want the cameras that do the different jobs clearly identified, I don't care what they are called or what you call them. When I see a line of 10 cameras, the speed ones should be yellow !
Why?My point was, is that I don't class the Tonbridge section of the M25 in the same vein that those two sections and should not be subject to the same rules as those pinch points as it will cause more congestion.
Speedguy, talking about what to call the cameras is just pedantic, my other point was that I just want the cameras that do the different jobs clearly identified, I don't care what they are called or what you call them. When I see a line of 10 cameras, the speed ones should be yellow !
The regulations decree that:
Speed camera housings must be coloured yellow
Camera housings cannot be obscured, e.g. by trees, bushes or signs
Cameras must be visible from 60m away in 40mph or less zones and 100m for all other speed limit zones
Camera sites are to be reviewed at least every six months in order to ensure that cameras are adequately visible and signed"
I don't know or care much if motorway cameras operate under a different policy, my point is that at least on this section of the m25 they should.
They should not be sneakily mounted on the back of an overhead gantry, painted in the same colour as the 50 or so cameras you have just passed, in and around this newly refreshed Tonbridge section of the M25.
It's only this section of motorway changes that have got on my wick and feel the need to post about it, i am not against cameras per-se I just think they were not needed on this area of the M25, if you are going to fit them there, don't stick them on 70mph and cause a problem that was not there previously.
There has never been a "law" that states that cameras should be painted yellow. You were getting close with rules and guidance as they were produced by DfT and were rules for claiming back the costs of running and purchasing the cameras. They still didn't 'have to be painted yellow' but they were mostly painted yellow.
Those rules were rescinded in April 2007 by the labour government and the conservative government don't concern themselves at all about speed cameras.
Cameras can be covered by trees, bushes and signs if the authority operating them wish to do that. It isn't a good idea to cover them with bushes and trees as it tends to cock the operation of them up somewhat.
The reason cameras need to be visible at 60m up to 40mph limit and 100m above 40mph limit is so motorists don't crash into them. I think that is a really good idea. It is not to give a driver a chance to see them and slow down before they are caught. In any case for mobile cameras I would be having a word with operators who waited until vehicles were that close before potting them.
Camera sites need no signing, need not be reviewed every 6 months and for that matter can be placed just anywhere there is a lawful speed limit. Why wouldn't they?
Cameras are of no concern to motorists who are responsible enough to take heed of the law and who comply with the terms on which their driving licence was granted to them. It is apparent that you are not one of those.
I always obey the enforced sub 70 speed limits due to heavy traffic and/or conditions, what we need are better drivers not more cameras. Cameras can't and won't rhyme and reason with traffic levels and condition like real police, they can just sit there as a revenue generation mechanism.
Your daily mail style approach to painting drivers like myself as some type of boy racer type of lawless rogue, who don't deserve a license is way off the mark. I see drivers all the time on the motorway who deserved to be nicked and most of the time they are doing sub-70 mph.
So the situation is that now the very safest road type has the most speed cameras and driving at a previously ignored 80 mph (by real, ie capable of thinking LEO's) along long stretches of UK road space (that we paid for) could now result in a ban within a couple of miles. What's the point in that?
I refer to the ludicrous notion of using these 'SMART' cameras 24/7 even when traffic is light or zero.
What the f
k are we putting up with that for?
I refer to the ludicrous notion of using these 'SMART' cameras 24/7 even when traffic is light or zero.
What the f
k are we putting up with that for?Edited by Davidonly on Friday 25th July 17:50
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