Discussion
RichB said:
chrisispringles said:
Those tires also aren't going to last long at 100-125mph...
But if we're dreaming of the future, which we are, then speeds of 100-125mph are far too slow. 125mph is commonplace on all main lines and HS1 does, and HS2 is planned to, run at 180mph. Surely these robotic bendy buses must travel over 200mph to be the least bit impressive. Else they're just a dinosaurs of a different species. 
Rovinghawk said:
lamboman100 said:
The train, plane and car will mostly be replaced by the Internet and its successors over the next 50 years. Humans are moving into an online world. The offline world is quickly already becoming less and less relevant.
How does that work for plumbers, farmers, factory workers, builders, social workers, etc?We can't all just sit tapping at computers- some people need to go & do 'real stuff'.
Digga said:
The railway is, as RichB points out, an antiquted, inefficient dinosaur.
Having lived by the West Cost mainline for much of my life, I am fully aware of a.) how much space it occupies and b.) what sort of traffic density it achieves. That myself and my contemporaries regularly crossed the lines without anyone ever being killed is testament to the relative lack of traffic.
Rails need regular and rigorous maintenance, as do overhead power lines. I cannot help but think rail is an idealised and idolised solution.
Digga, which part of WCML are you close to? Are you expecting trains head to toe? There is a reason it is close to capacity.Having lived by the West Cost mainline for much of my life, I am fully aware of a.) how much space it occupies and b.) what sort of traffic density it achieves. That myself and my contemporaries regularly crossed the lines without anyone ever being killed is testament to the relative lack of traffic.
Rails need regular and rigorous maintenance, as do overhead power lines. I cannot help but think rail is an idealised and idolised solution.
Google train headways. Then factor in the signal block sections and you can see why trains may seem infrequent, but it will more than likely be close to capacity.
ETRMS level 3 will drastically reduce the space between trains. Each train will be in direct communication with the one in front. The information exchanged will be the length and type (Enhanced brakes or increased weight) of train and speed. This will be compared to its geographical location (For gradients as these greatly affect stopping distance. A overlap safety margin will be added and a distance will be worked out that a train can follow another train.
To simplify this, the current signalling system caters for a worst case scenario, so if a line is used once by a train that does 120mph (2041m on a level gradient, 3312m on a 1:200 gradient) and then used by 40 trains doing 60 mph (1070m level, 2045 1:200) Then the signals will have to cater for the longer distance.
There is more maths to it than this as you can get different gradients and 3 aspect signalling and 4 aspect signalling.
But the minimum distance on a level track between signals for a 125 mph train on 3 aspect is minimum braking distance so 2041. Which means a 125 mph train can go through this section once every 89 seconds. Put A slow commuter train onto this section, of say 50 mph its once every 184 seconds, best case scenario.
This is at line speed running, I've not factored into account the fact that trains stop at stations, and have to slow down and accelerate.
Seems as if the plans for Euston have run into the buffers.
HS2 'slowly dying’ as Euston terminus plan grinds to halt
HS2 'slowly dying’ as Euston terminus plan grinds to halt
article said:
In minutes from last month seen by The Sunday Telegraph, Rupert Walker, HS2 and Network Rail’s development director for Euston, says design work on the station has been “stopped” because HS2 “simply couldn’t get the costs and benefits of the scheme to balance in an affordable way.”
Mr Walker said the proposed scheme was “not a fundable option”, adding that it “could not be made to work financially – there was no business case.”
The plan, for demolition of the Sixties terminus – allowing lucrative property development above the rebuilt station and tracks – was seen as essential to recoup the costs of taking the line to Euston. Hundreds of nearby homes, including much of a council estate, would have to be demolished and reprovided elsewhere.
“This places a serious question mark over whether HS2 will be able to open a station at Euston in time for the opening of the new line,” said Sarah Hayward, leader of the local council, Camden, which has long opposed the plans.
The impasse suggests that HS2 chiefs may have to end the line at Old Oak Common, near Harlesden, four miles west of central London – shattering the route’s city centre to city centre appeal, adding time to journeys and further harming the scheme’s already poor business case. Boris Johnson, the Mayor of London, has said he would withdraw his support for HS2 if it ended at Old Oak Common, calling it the “Ryanair solution, stopping in the middle of nowhere.
More in the linked articleMr Walker said the proposed scheme was “not a fundable option”, adding that it “could not be made to work financially – there was no business case.”
The plan, for demolition of the Sixties terminus – allowing lucrative property development above the rebuilt station and tracks – was seen as essential to recoup the costs of taking the line to Euston. Hundreds of nearby homes, including much of a council estate, would have to be demolished and reprovided elsewhere.
“This places a serious question mark over whether HS2 will be able to open a station at Euston in time for the opening of the new line,” said Sarah Hayward, leader of the local council, Camden, which has long opposed the plans.
The impasse suggests that HS2 chiefs may have to end the line at Old Oak Common, near Harlesden, four miles west of central London – shattering the route’s city centre to city centre appeal, adding time to journeys and further harming the scheme’s already poor business case. Boris Johnson, the Mayor of London, has said he would withdraw his support for HS2 if it ended at Old Oak Common, calling it the “Ryanair solution, stopping in the middle of nowhere.
FiF said:
Seems as if the plans for Euston have run into the buffers.
HS2 'slowly dying’ as Euston terminus plan grinds to halt
Of course, whether or not that article is completely true is a matter of interest. "Slowly dying" to an anti-HS2 group could be read as "bit of a stumbling block here lads but we'll get over it" by a pro-HS2 group.HS2 'slowly dying’ as Euston terminus plan grinds to halt
article said:
In minutes from last month seen by The Sunday Telegraph, Rupert Walker, HS2 and Network Rail’s development director for Euston, says design work on the station has been “stopped” because HS2 “simply couldn’t get the costs and benefits of the scheme to balance in an affordable way.”
Mr Walker said the proposed scheme was “not a fundable option”, adding that it “could not be made to work financially – there was no business case.”
The plan, for demolition of the Sixties terminus – allowing lucrative property development above the rebuilt station and tracks – was seen as essential to recoup the costs of taking the line to Euston. Hundreds of nearby homes, including much of a council estate, would have to be demolished and reprovided elsewhere.
“This places a serious question mark over whether HS2 will be able to open a station at Euston in time for the opening of the new line,” said Sarah Hayward, leader of the local council, Camden, which has long opposed the plans.
The impasse suggests that HS2 chiefs may have to end the line at Old Oak Common, near Harlesden, four miles west of central London – shattering the route’s city centre to city centre appeal, adding time to journeys and further harming the scheme’s already poor business case. Boris Johnson, the Mayor of London, has said he would withdraw his support for HS2 if it ended at Old Oak Common, calling it the “Ryanair solution, stopping in the middle of nowhere.
More in the linked articleMr Walker said the proposed scheme was “not a fundable option”, adding that it “could not be made to work financially – there was no business case.”
The plan, for demolition of the Sixties terminus – allowing lucrative property development above the rebuilt station and tracks – was seen as essential to recoup the costs of taking the line to Euston. Hundreds of nearby homes, including much of a council estate, would have to be demolished and reprovided elsewhere.
“This places a serious question mark over whether HS2 will be able to open a station at Euston in time for the opening of the new line,” said Sarah Hayward, leader of the local council, Camden, which has long opposed the plans.
The impasse suggests that HS2 chiefs may have to end the line at Old Oak Common, near Harlesden, four miles west of central London – shattering the route’s city centre to city centre appeal, adding time to journeys and further harming the scheme’s already poor business case. Boris Johnson, the Mayor of London, has said he would withdraw his support for HS2 if it ended at Old Oak Common, calling it the “Ryanair solution, stopping in the middle of nowhere.
There was always a plan to provide a station at OOC where HS2 would connect with Heathrow trains and also Crossrail. Whilst I agree that terminating HS2 at OOC would be a little odd, to say the least, it will still have the major benefits of connections there that were always planned.
But you would of course noticed the word "may" in the sentence "The impasse suggests that HS2 chiefs may have to end the line at Old Oak Common, near Harlesdon ... etc.." Wouldn't you think an unbiased journo would not have chosen a London suburb that very few of the UK population have heard of, and might have said "on the main railway line between Paddington and Heathrow" instead because a lot more people would have heard of those? I wonder why he/she didn't?
The quote, if it be true, from His Borisness, is a little interesting. He apparently thinks that Old Oak Common is in the middle of nowhere. Presumably wanting to build a major hub airport half way to France at an eye-watering cost is not in the middle of nowhere? I hope he's never called HS2 a "vanity project" because one or two chickens would come home to roost if he did. Perhaps Boris Island is his "Easyjet solution?" to another problem
Johnson has found the limit of his influence when it comes to airports. With the conservatives, labour and the lib dems behind the schema it's going to happen.
Johnson is stepping down as mayor and is going to have to tow the line if he wants a senior job in the conservative party.
So that leaves UKIP. Anyone really think they are going to have that much influence?
The story is lifted from stophs2.org
Johnson is stepping down as mayor and is going to have to tow the line if he wants a senior job in the conservative party.
So that leaves UKIP. Anyone really think they are going to have that much influence?
The story is lifted from stophs2.org
RichB said:
IroningMan said:
If HS2 is such a smart idea, then why are the good burghers of Camden so against it?
I don't know who you are referring to but perhaps they can't see any advantage in linking Manchester, Leeds, Sheffiled, Birmingham and London with a 250mph railway line. Telegraph Article said:
“This places a serious question mark over whether HS2 will be able to open a station at Euston in time for the opening of the new line,” said Sarah Hayward, leader of the local council, Camden, which has long opposed the plans.
Perhaps I'm wrong to expend London to be united in its delight at the prospect of better connectivity with the North. Or perhaps Camden Council are just Nimbys like everyone else directly affected?Who does want it?
RichB said:
IroningMan said:
Who does want it?
Is that you asking? I imagine as many people are for it as those who live directly along the route who are against it. But I don't have any statistics so that's a pure guess. What do you say? Birmingham, Bristol, Cardiff, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle, Nottingham, and Sheffield county council
Go-HS2 a group comprising Centro, Birmingham City Council, Birmingham Chamber of Commerce, Birmingham Airport and the NEC Group.
The Scottish Government
The North East Chamber of Commerce and the Greater Manchester Chamber of Commerce.
Hammersmith and Fulham Council
RichB said:
IroningMan said:
Who does want it?
Is that you asking? I imagine as many people are for it as those who live directly along the route who are against it. But I don't have any statistics so that's a pure guess. What do you say? But hey there's Nowt like being shortsighted
If the country was bigger it would probably have been worth considering a Maglev build ?
RichB said:
IroningMan said:
Who does want it?
Is that you asking? I imagine as many people are for it as those who live directly along the route who are against it. But I don't have any statistics so that's a pure guess. What do you say?My view is, of course, coloured: I have customers nationwide and travel a great deal for work; I find trains slow and expensive - it's 30 miles from here to Bristol airport and 0900 meetings in Edinburgh and Dublin are less of a ball-ache than those in London; they're cheaper, too - First Great Western don't offer enough space between seats to use a laptop and South West Trains don't provide power, so working on the train is actually something of a myth, to boot.
IroningMan said:
Personally I buy the argument that HS2 will enable a substantial increase in North/South capacity through smarter signalling; I don't know that the demand is there to justify that capacity, though - it's my experience that short-distance commuter capacity is needed, not all-day intercity.
The point is that by putting all of the fast long distance traffic on to a seperate route you free up all of the paths filled on the existing routes to provide additional commuter services. Anecdotally, I travel a lot between London and the North and there is no shortage of demand for long distance travel.chrisispringles said:
The point is that by putting all of the fast long distance traffic on to a seperate route you free up all of the paths filled on the existing routes to provide additional commuter services. Anecdotally, I travel a lot between London and the North and there is no shortage of demand for long distance travel.
I live in 'The North' and don't know anyone who wants or is in favour of this service. In fact if this line ever opens, and I hope to God it doesn't, if I ever have to use the service it will cost me more and actually take me longer to get to the big s
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