Appeal declined - ticket for unloading in loading bay?!

Appeal declined - ticket for unloading in loading bay?!

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motoroller

Original Poster:

657 posts

172 months

Saturday 10th May 2014
quotequote all
I stopped in the loading bay outside Earls Court tube station, to drop off a passenger and their luggage (2 large bags and a carrier bag). As it was a loading zone, I thought that unloading would be permitted.

I've received a PCN and a £130 fine, which I appealed. My appeal was overturned. The statement was as follows:



I have considered your representation in accordance with the requirements of the above Act and regret to advise that you have not established grounds or suitable reason for the penalty charge notice to be cancelled. This letter is issued as a formal Notice of Rejection to your representation.

The reasons for this rejection are as follows:

You have stated that you were unloading a passenger and their luggage. Please be advised that we issued the PCN because your vehicle was observed stationary on 1 April 2014 at the above location. The signage in place indicates no stopping at any time except loading max 20 minutes.

Your vehicle entered the red route loading bay at 21:12 and was continuously observed until its point of exit at 21:13. During this period, no activity that could be construed as loading was observed. Occupying a loading without loading or unloading constitutes a contravention.

Legislation does not set out a universal definition of loading and unloading as it is recognised that each case should be considered on its own merits. The general interpretation of the restriction is that loading/unloading should be in the nature of a collection/delivery. This does not include parking in the bay whilst shopping. Essentially loading (in a non-commercial context) is the operation of transferring, to or from a vehicle, goods which require the use of a vehicle to transport them.

TfL would expect that motorists only use the loading bays on the red route for their intended purpose and that the use of a vehicle is necessary, rather than convenient.


Are they saying that I was fined because someone was watching and they didn't see the passenger and bags being removed from the van? It's quite easy to see someone and their luggage getting out of a van.

Should I take the appeal further? It's ridiculous to pay a fine for stopping in a loading bay to unload.

supersport

4,040 posts

226 months

Saturday 10th May 2014
quotequote all
£130 for 60 seconds, ouch!

I think you were fined because a passenger plus luggage isn't considered commercial loading/unloading. If you had been delivering something then ok.

NH1

1,333 posts

128 months

Saturday 10th May 2014
quotequote all
Does it say in the legislation its commercial loading only?

catman

2,490 posts

174 months

Saturday 10th May 2014
quotequote all
It seems to me that they are saying that in their view, dropping off a passenger and their luggage doesn't constitute loading.

The sign means (in their view) loading of a commercial vehicle.

Tim

Campo

10,772 posts

196 months

Saturday 10th May 2014
quotequote all
I've just had a look on Google maps, its a red route with a clearly signed loading bay.

Its a shame but you can nip down the side roads there and drop people off no problem.

Edited by Campo on Saturday 10th May 19:37

Campo

10,772 posts

196 months

Saturday 10th May 2014
quotequote all
p.s. If you want to fight it, there a fair bit already on Pepipoo about loading bay tickets.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=30

SVTRick

3,633 posts

194 months

Saturday 10th May 2014
quotequote all
Tell them you will challenge it in the small claims court, request a copy of the video evidence in full for your defence. if you win you will claim costs and expenses.
Loading / Unloading is just that. Get the passenger to confirm large/heavy items etc.
A passenger removing goods / bags or whatever is "Unloading" this is TFL being an arse.
Fight it.

Nickyboy

6,700 posts

233 months

Saturday 10th May 2014
quotequote all
SVTRick said:
Tell them you will challenge it in the small claims court, request a copy of the video evidence in full for your defence. if you win you will claim costs and expenses.
Loading / Unloading is just that. Get the passenger to confirm large/heavy items etc.
A passenger removing goods / bags or whatever is "Unloading" this is TFL being an arse.
Fight it.
It would depend on the signage, a lot of loading only bays are accompanied by goods vehicle only signs. If it doesn't have one of these then yes its fightable.

SVTRick

3,633 posts

194 months

Saturday 10th May 2014
quotequote all
Depends on what you define as a "Goods Vehicle"
A van with things inside ie; cases, boxes or whatever would class it as goods.

I have 10 ton MAN but its not classed as a goods vehicle owing to the fact its has equipment fixed inside - Special Vehicle Engineering Plant.

I think its worth a fight, seems petty on the part of TFL
Unless the OP was taking mickey with the size of bags / goods removed.
But at least it was a van.
There again some women seem to carry a handbag around that resembles plumbers tool kit smile

Flibble

6,470 posts

180 months

Saturday 10th May 2014
quotequote all
Road traffic regulation act says loading bays are "goods vehicles" only. Accordingly RTA says "goods vehicle" means a motor vehicle constructed or adapted for use for the carriage of goods, or a trailer so constructed or adapted.

Based on that a car doesn't count regardless of how heavy and numerous the bags are. Dropping off a passenger and their luggage would normally be considered alighting from a vehicle rather than unloading.

SVTRick

3,633 posts

194 months

Saturday 10th May 2014
quotequote all
Flibble said:
Road traffic regulation act says loading bays are "goods vehicles" only. Accordingly RTA says "goods vehicle" means a motor vehicle constructed or adapted for use for the carriage of goods, or a trailer so constructed or adapted.

Based on that a car doesn't count regardless of how heavy and numerous the bags are. Dropping off a passenger and their luggage would normally be considered alighting from a vehicle rather than unloading.
OP states "Van" goods carrying for the use of smile

Zeeky

2,779 posts

211 months

Saturday 10th May 2014
quotequote all
Flibble said:
Road traffic regulation act says loading bays are "goods vehicles" only...
Are you sure you are not referring to loading areas off the highway?

motoroller

Original Poster:

657 posts

172 months

Saturday 10th May 2014
quotequote all
As said above, surely commercial loading constitutes a van. Their objection seems to be that I didn't open the back loading doors and close them again.

Zeeky

2,779 posts

211 months

Sunday 11th May 2014
quotequote all
The letter you have been sent reads as if it is a standard letter sent to anyone who disputes the claim that they were not loading. The penalty may well be dropped if you appeal but you might want to check the law relating to loading bays first. Ignore Fibble's post unless he can cite the relevant law.

Flibble

6,470 posts

180 months

Sunday 11th May 2014
quotequote all
Zeeky said:
Are you sure you are not referring to loading areas off the highway?
It seems so, due to the whole decriminalisation thing there's no actual legislation for loading bays any more.

Given that it seems your appeal is entirely at the whim of TFL and their appeals process. Their website does specifically state no dropping off of passengers though: https://www.tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/red-routes/ru...

10 Pence Short

32,880 posts

216 months

Sunday 11th May 2014
quotequote all
I don't believe dropping off passengers with luggage should or would be considered loading for the purposes of the bay.

Silver Smudger

3,292 posts

166 months

Sunday 11th May 2014
quotequote all
Look at what the actual letter received says
TfL said:
...Legislation does not set out a universal definition of loading and unloading as it is recognised that each case should be considered on its own merits. The general interpretation of the restriction is that loading/unloading should be in the nature of a collection/delivery. This does not include parking in the bay whilst shopping. Essentially loading (in a non-commercial context) is the operation of transferring, to or from a vehicle, goods which require the use of a vehicle to transport them...
How can they sensibly enforce something that vague?

tvrgit

8,470 posts

251 months

Sunday 11th May 2014
quotequote all
Silver Smudger said:
How can they sensibly enforce something that vague?
Correct - you can't enforce something based on "generally accepted" and "essentially". That letter does not even answer the point you raised - i.e. dropping off and picking up passengers.

There is no general rule - it depends exactly what this specific Traffic Regulation Order says. Dropping off and picking up might be excluded - or it might not. "Loading" might mean "from a goods vehicle only" or it might not - many Orders just say "loading or unloading a vehicle.

Since this seems to be a red route, it's likely that it specifies "No Stopping" rather than "No Waiting" so it's more likely that setting down and picking up passengers will be excluded - but if you were in a loading bay, and arguably unloading, then the exact wording of the order, and exactly how that is explained on the signs, becomes very important before you go to any appeal - at that stage they will involve their in-house solicitors who will look at all of this, rather than the generalised bland "F-off" letter you have already.

Personally, I wouldn't assume that dropping off passengers with cases constitutes "unloading", but it depends what the order actually says.

Edited by tvrgit on Sunday 11th May 09:16

blank

3,439 posts

187 months

Sunday 11th May 2014
quotequote all
Interesting... I remember a story on here before about someone who stopped on double yellows with loading restrictions to let a passenger out.

Normally OK but they were fined as the passenger got a suitcase out of the boot, which made it 'loading'.

SVTRick

3,633 posts

194 months

Sunday 11th May 2014
quotequote all
Dropping off a passenger who takes package to deliver it where there is no access must be unloading
fight TFL they are just another example of cash cow camera use.
Its not like you are obstructing the road or causing an issue.
TFL are just trying to screw you over