Discussion
a311 said:
I started to write a post around who might feature in the Ireland game/make it in to the final squad then got side tracked. However it has been announced the final 31 will be announced this Thursday so all my theories were shot to s
t. Who I reckon Lancaster will pick rather than who I'd like to see.
Props, think Corbs will be dropped, was between him and Brookes but can't afford take a risk on any injured/out of form players.
Hookers: LCD to drop out, if the squad hadn't been announced I reckon he'd have deserved a half against Ireland.
Lock(s) Parling was poor in the first of the French games but is experienced and a great lineout operator and may help Youngs being club mates? I think he's more in the athletic get around the park type like Lawes and Launch IMO so I reckon we need Attwood's grunt as at least a bench option. a couple of seasons ago Lawes had the tendency to blow hot and cold. I reckon Kruis or Attwood will miss out.
Backrow: Easter and Clarke out. Wood I reckon is still Lancaster preferred choice.
Halfbacks: Cips to miss out done everything he could but Lancaster seems to just want to placate the press etc and never had any intention of playing him at the WC.
Centers: Surely 36 can't be in the final squad therefore I think Slade could be the one to come in-outside chance Cips might take that utility position? I'd also drop Burrell for Burgess and can see it happening, I'm just not sure Lancaster has the conviction to take both . I'm pretty annoyed that in Barritt another injured player with unproven form has been carried. JJ obviously in.
Wings/Full backs. Goode and Brown (no Cips here either) Nowell, Watson and May for the wings.
Sadly I really can't disagree with you there Cips is just too individual for SL and Faz and doesn't fit their rigid way of thinking... that being said IIRC Eddie Butler actually suggested (& I'd tend to agree with him) sending May home seeing as he doesn't seem to have made huge strides forward t. Who I reckon Lancaster will pick rather than who I'd like to see.Props, think Corbs will be dropped, was between him and Brookes but can't afford take a risk on any injured/out of form players.
Hookers: LCD to drop out, if the squad hadn't been announced I reckon he'd have deserved a half against Ireland.
Lock(s) Parling was poor in the first of the French games but is experienced and a great lineout operator and may help Youngs being club mates? I think he's more in the athletic get around the park type like Lawes and Launch IMO so I reckon we need Attwood's grunt as at least a bench option. a couple of seasons ago Lawes had the tendency to blow hot and cold. I reckon Kruis or Attwood will miss out.
Backrow: Easter and Clarke out. Wood I reckon is still Lancaster preferred choice.
Halfbacks: Cips to miss out done everything he could but Lancaster seems to just want to placate the press etc and never had any intention of playing him at the WC.
Centers: Surely 36 can't be in the final squad therefore I think Slade could be the one to come in-outside chance Cips might take that utility position? I'd also drop Burrell for Burgess and can see it happening, I'm just not sure Lancaster has the conviction to take both . I'm pretty annoyed that in Barritt another injured player with unproven form has been carried. JJ obviously in.
Wings/Full backs. Goode and Brown (no Cips here either) Nowell, Watson and May for the wings.
Edited by irocfan on Tuesday 25th August 08:39
If Ford got an injury, we'd be in real trouble without Cips...
I agree that the work needs to happen in the pack though. Not sure how you solve those problems... But I hope SL does!
I'd like to see Burgess in - Think we need a bit of a bully with our forwards not getting the job done.
I agree that the work needs to happen in the pack though. Not sure how you solve those problems... But I hope SL does!
I'd like to see Burgess in - Think we need a bit of a bully with our forwards not getting the job done.
Edited by dom9 on Tuesday 25th August 08:39
May will continue to be May threatening in attack and flaky in defence. If he does play in the WC (I can’t see him starting over Nowell) then any oppo in their right might would target him under the high ball. We need some rotation if we progress so reckon he’d be ideal for the Fiji and Uruguay games.
Cips best chance seemed to be at FB, I really wanted to see him at 10 for at least a half. Looked on Saturday like he’d fit well into the centres too. It’s worrying that Lancaster doesn’t know his best team so close, in announcing the team this week I don’t know why he didn’t just reduce the squad earlier, we might all be surprised and see Cips, Slade and Burgess in there, but I doubt it. I reckon Lancaster is a good man manager but reckon he should have done more with the talent that’s been coming through domestically in the run up to the home WC. Can’t help but think what Schmidt has done at Ireland with far more limited resources could have done for us….. Time will tell.
Cips best chance seemed to be at FB, I really wanted to see him at 10 for at least a half. Looked on Saturday like he’d fit well into the centres too. It’s worrying that Lancaster doesn’t know his best team so close, in announcing the team this week I don’t know why he didn’t just reduce the squad earlier, we might all be surprised and see Cips, Slade and Burgess in there, but I doubt it. I reckon Lancaster is a good man manager but reckon he should have done more with the talent that’s been coming through domestically in the run up to the home WC. Can’t help but think what Schmidt has done at Ireland with far more limited resources could have done for us….. Time will tell.
custardtart said:
Ok getting my predictions in early
QF1 - AUS v SA - SA win
QF2 - NZ v FR - FR win
QF3 - IRL v ARG - IRL win
QF4 - ENG v SAM - ENG win
SF1 - SA v FR - FR win
SF2 - ENG v IRL - IRL win
F - FR v IRL - IRL win
Got the money down
Hopefully you got that as an accumulator? Bl00dy hope so!!!! Massive upside I guess?QF1 - AUS v SA - SA win
QF2 - NZ v FR - FR win
QF3 - IRL v ARG - IRL win
QF4 - ENG v SAM - ENG win
SF1 - SA v FR - FR win
SF2 - ENG v IRL - IRL win
F - FR v IRL - IRL win
Got the money down
I think, to use that awful expression, we are where we are in terms of Cipriani and Easter. I'd like to see them both in the squad but the reality is that they've been (re) admitted to the England set-up far too late in this cycle to allow them a fair crack at the whip. This has been compounded by not giving them sufficient exposure in the warm up games and the latter part of the 6 Nations. Given that the team was far from settled at the outset of the 6N we should have been using that as an extended trial rather than going all out to build momentum. That's been Lancaster's critical misjudgment imho.
What's of most concern to me are two things:
1) although the debate is currently about "fringe" selections the bigger problem is that we don't have a settled, nailed-on starting 15 with few, if any, players you'd genuinely categorise as world-class. Saturday probably made that worse. In the absence of a clear indication of the spine of the team it's a considerable risk that the team is tinkered with during the tournament unsettling what balance we do have
2) there seems to be a real problem with leadership on the pitch, the ability to make good decisions under pressure and to solve problems. It's why, for me, it's such a shame that we've messed about with Burgess's preferred position. The one thing he does bring is a rallying point and the ability to react to adversity.
What's of most concern to me are two things:
1) although the debate is currently about "fringe" selections the bigger problem is that we don't have a settled, nailed-on starting 15 with few, if any, players you'd genuinely categorise as world-class. Saturday probably made that worse. In the absence of a clear indication of the spine of the team it's a considerable risk that the team is tinkered with during the tournament unsettling what balance we do have
2) there seems to be a real problem with leadership on the pitch, the ability to make good decisions under pressure and to solve problems. It's why, for me, it's such a shame that we've messed about with Burgess's preferred position. The one thing he does bring is a rallying point and the ability to react to adversity.
basherX said:
I think, to use that awful expression, we are where we are in terms of Cipriani and Easter. I'd like to see them both in the squad but the reality is that they've been (re) admitted to the England set-up far too late in this cycle to allow them a fair crack at the whip. This has been compounded by not giving them sufficient exposure in the warm up games and the latter part of the 6 Nations. Given that the team was far from settled at the outset of the 6N we should have been using that as an extended trial rather than going all out to build momentum. That's been Lancaster's critical misjudgment imho.
What's of most concern to me are two things:
1) although the debate is currently about "fringe" selections the bigger problem is that we don't have a settled, nailed-on starting 15 with few, if any, players you'd genuinely categorise as world-class. Saturday probably made that worse. In the absence of a clear indication of the spine of the team it's a considerable risk that the team is tinkered with during the tournament unsettling what balance we do have
2) there seems to be a real problem with leadership on the pitch, the ability to make good decisions under pressure and to solve problems. It's why, for me, it's such a shame that we've messed about with Burgess's preferred position. The one thing he does bring is a rallying point and the ability to react to adversity.
I agree with this... I think 1). is an interesting point. If something isn't working (it probably won't at some point) then there is a huge amount of pressure to 'tinker'. However, we just don't have enough 'easy' games to do that. Australia and Wales in the Groups and then straight into knockout will mean we really need to be getting it right straight out of the box, which the France games tell us we won't be able to do.What's of most concern to me are two things:
1) although the debate is currently about "fringe" selections the bigger problem is that we don't have a settled, nailed-on starting 15 with few, if any, players you'd genuinely categorise as world-class. Saturday probably made that worse. In the absence of a clear indication of the spine of the team it's a considerable risk that the team is tinkered with during the tournament unsettling what balance we do have
2) there seems to be a real problem with leadership on the pitch, the ability to make good decisions under pressure and to solve problems. It's why, for me, it's such a shame that we've messed about with Burgess's preferred position. The one thing he does bring is a rallying point and the ability to react to adversity.
Let's see what Ireland bring as, arguably, the best of the Northern Hemisphere.
I'd be interested in knowing what a 'players' starting XV would look like. Would they be picking to play with the same guys as SL? Are they finding his system difficult/ frustrating. I guess that plays to 2). a little as I do think Robshaw is too quiet and no one is putting their hands up in the backs to lead because they can't be sure they'll be there one week to the next, I suspect.
We need leaders to emerge who let their play do the talking but also stand up and be vocal on and off the pitch.
I felt Courtney was a little 'subdued' on Saturday and hung out in the back line a little too much. I love the physicality and athleticism he brings to the 2nd row but I just felt a bit 'concerned' at the weekend that he wasn't quite 'right' or he was playing a role he didn't feel comfortable in. I feel like he is a guy who could stand up and be counted for some leadership and could grow into that role a la Martin Johnson.
If Ireland go for a full or close to full strength 15 it will be a decent indication, I thought it was in Ireland but believe it's at Twickenham. At home we 'should' win as I'm hoping home advantage will carry us out of the group.
Ireland IMO have that top 5% that England don't which is to say they're more savvy and have the brains to go with the brawn, which sadly I don't believe England have-see this year’s 6N at the Aviva for evidence.
Ireland IMO have that top 5% that England don't which is to say they're more savvy and have the brains to go with the brawn, which sadly I don't believe England have-see this year’s 6N at the Aviva for evidence.
Hold on a mo with the Cips thing and bashing Lancaster. Cips wrote himself out of contention!! He was bang in form and was very much in the forefront of SL's mind and then he went and mobbed it up all by himself! Cips has been given more chances and comebacks than anyone outside of Hartley!
I've never been a fan of Goode personally and I'd take Cips for fullback cover over Brown and the flash Harry backup to Ford. I don't have much of a problem with Faz like most of you do, besides it won't bloody matter who is in the backbone anyway if the Pack plays like it has done for the last two matches - we will be munched! England sure as hell ain't going to outplay Wales & Aus in the back line off back foot ball!
Right now the most critical thing is someone getting 2,4,5 and 7 working in unison again! I've left out going long to 8 deliberately!
I've never been a fan of Goode personally and I'd take Cips for fullback cover over Brown and the flash Harry backup to Ford. I don't have much of a problem with Faz like most of you do, besides it won't bloody matter who is in the backbone anyway if the Pack plays like it has done for the last two matches - we will be munched! England sure as hell ain't going to outplay Wales & Aus in the back line off back foot ball!
Right now the most critical thing is someone getting 2,4,5 and 7 working in unison again! I've left out going long to 8 deliberately!
irocfan said:
which, I suspect, is one reason why SB is still in contention - he is very vocal
If we knew who our starting centres were then he'd be a dead cert. purely for what he adds to the leadership deficit in camp and potentially even be used off the bench. It's the fact that we don't have a clue what the first choice centre partnership looks like and thus what the balance of back-up needs to be that has made the whole selection process so tortured. Lancaster should have been announcing his squad on Sunday morning and have a first team working hard on correcting the mistakes from last weekend now. Instead we appear to be pissing about with further behind-doors selection games which just waste time and won't give any insight into the players' ability to react at Twickenham in front of 80,000+ spectators. His sense of fairness to the squad reflects well on him usually but he's not being hard headed enough at the moment.Given the modern tendency to go for one bosher and one flyer in the centres I'd go for Barrett (if fit) and Joseph against Ireland and see how Burgess compares of the bench against (almost) the best. But what do I know- I'm a lowly (ex) hooker. Albeit one who's expecting a call from Lancaster any minute.
DJRC said:
...and bashing Lancaster.
To be fair, it's not all his fault. He's tried to do his best. Both forwards and backs coaches have some questions to answer.And then there is the RFU. Surely we could bring Armitage back from France?
A HOME World Cup is surely an 'exceptional circumstance' that would allow our 'foreign' players to play for the national side!
As much as I dislike him and wanted him out of the team (be careful what you wish for) - I'd also be looking to bring Hartley back into the fold.
We should be doing ALL we can to win this RWC as it is at home... But we're not.
Ok, disciplinarys etc are a good reason to keep people out (in a gentleman's sport) but playing abroad?!?!
dom9 said:
DJRC said:
...and bashing Lancaster.
To be fair, it's not all his fault. He's tried to do his best. Both forwards and backs coaches have some questions to answer.And then there is the RFU. Surely we could bring Armitage back from France?
A HOME World Cup is surely an 'exceptional circumstance' that would allow our 'foreign' players to play for the national side!
As much as I dislike him and wanted him out of the team (be careful what you wish for) - I'd also be looking to bring Hartley back into the fold.
We should be doing ALL we can to win this RWC as it is at home... But we're not.
Ok, disciplinarys etc are a good reason to keep people out (in a gentleman's sport) but playing abroad?!?!
I'm hoping that there's a master plan, that we're optimisng fitness for a month's time (and so won't look so woefully behind as we did on Saturday), that the lineout is a communication problem that's easily fixed, that Morgan is fit enough, that Saturday was simply the kick up the arse needed and that home advantage will prevail. But I have the fear, big time.
a311 said:
If Ireland go for a full or close to full strength 15 it will be a decent indication, I thought it was in Ireland but believe it's at Twickenham. At home we 'should' win as I'm hoping home advantage will carry us out of the group.
Ireland IMO have that top 5% that England don't which is to say they're more savvy and have the brains to go with the brawn, which sadly I don't believe England have-see this year’s 6N at the Aviva for evidence.
I suspect both teams have to be as close to first choice as fitness will allow. If England sort themselves out it should be a very good game. Ireland increasingly looking like the real deal with strength in depth their only real concern.Ireland IMO have that top 5% that England don't which is to say they're more savvy and have the brains to go with the brawn, which sadly I don't believe England have-see this year’s 6N at the Aviva for evidence.
irocfan said:
the thing with Armatige is that he knew what the score was and has been for the last 4(?) years and still he's out in France - do I blame him? No - you have to provide a roof and food etc, however the flip side of that is that it will discount you.
I agree to some extent... But then we still haven't done what we could to bring the best players together. Would other players kick up a fuss because they didn't go to play in France (other countries with bigger salaries are available) in order to be picked? Maybe. And maybe that would have been a problem...But what sort of player would kick up a fuss at the expense of having a stronger national side? I don't think it would happen in rugby, though I could see it happening in football. I'd expect our boys would swallow their complaints and be happy they have a better chance of winning the RWC again.
It's all a bit moot as it's now too late and won't happen but I am really depressed that I feel we barely have a chance when it is on home soil and may be the only one on home soil that I live to see (36yrs old).
Looks like the last center position is a shoot out between Burgess and Burrell.
Funny thing is neither Slade nor Burgess/Burrell will start, I find it interesting that in Barritt Lancaster is carrying a player who's not played much international rugby recently.
I can see Slade being used to rest JJ or potentially coming on and JJ shift to the wing.
Funny thing is neither Slade nor Burgess/Burrell will start, I find it interesting that in Barritt Lancaster is carrying a player who's not played much international rugby recently.
I can see Slade being used to rest JJ or potentially coming on and JJ shift to the wing.
a311 said:
Looks like the last center position is a shoot out between Burgess and Burrell.
Funny thing is neither Slade nor Burgess/Burrell will start, I find it interesting that in Barritt Lancaster is carrying a player who's not played much international rugby recently.
I can see Slade being used to rest JJ or potentially coming on and JJ shift to the wing.
Did you get that from the Telegraph articles? Quite an interesting read.Funny thing is neither Slade nor Burgess/Burrell will start, I find it interesting that in Barritt Lancaster is carrying a player who's not played much international rugby recently.
I can see Slade being used to rest JJ or potentially coming on and JJ shift to the wing.
Also seems to be some suggestion (again) that that Farrell is the real cover at 12.
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