remapping, what do i want ?

[glasgowrob]

Hi guys,


getting my workhorse taxi remapped next week due to an egr issue and ford not being able to supply a new unit (stock on backorder)

I decided to go down the route of a EGR/DPF delete along with custom mapping and this is where i'm a bit lost.


previous cars I've always had generic maps and been happy enough with them. The company i'm using have a fantastic reputation and the mapper started asking what i'm aiming for and what sort of way I want the map done I found myself a bit lost.

the car is mainly a motorway mile muncher and spends its days plodding up and down the M6/74. The car probably spends half its life sitting around 2000 rpm. i'll never find myself looking to take part in a traffic light GP with it. granted I can sometimes think that 140 horses and the meagre dollop of torque it comes as standard with isn't enough when i'm on the back roads and this would be the main area I would love to see an improvement but what should I be telling my mapper i'm after?

thoughts please guys and girls as i'm sure that the vast majority of you on here will have some interesting thoughts on this


car is a mk4.5 2l tdci Mondeo 140 btw

[stevieturbo]

You want it to be reliable, you dont want aggressive power delivery, and you dont want so much torque that you're going to eat clutches or put undue strain on any components that are going to cost you money.

It's a workhorse after all.

[andyiley]

All you need to do is to tell them what you just have told us & he will map to suit.

[glasgowrob]

quite happy with the results bearing in mind its a 160k mile 140 horsepower Mondeo




mapper did have it nudging 200 horses and 335 lbs/ft but backed the mapping off slightly

[Fastdruid]

glasgowrob said:

I decided to go down the route of a EGR/DPF delete along with custom mapping and this is where i'm a bit lost.

You do know you need a DPF for the MOT now don't you?

[ZeusF]

To make your car feel better and be quicker on the road ask him to bring your torque down to around 1800-2100rpm.
It is way too high, peaking at near 3k

[226bhp]

ZeusF said:

To make your car feel better and be quicker on the road ask him to bring your torque down to around 1800-2100rpm.
It is way too high, peaking at near 3k

Unless the cam timing or induction length is electronically controlled and adjustable a mapper can't change the physical aspects of an engine, it will make its peak power where it does and that's it.

[226bhp]

Fastdruid said:

You do know you need a DPF for the MOT now don't you?

If it looks like it's still there and the emissions are still within limits it will pass.
Not that that makes it right of course......

[ZeusF]

226bhp said:

ZeusF said:

To make your car feel better and be quicker on the road ask him to bring your torque down to around 1800-2100rpm.
It is way too high, peaking at near 3k

Unless the cam timing or induction length is electronically controlled and adjustable a mapper can't change the physical aspects of an engine, it will make its peak power where it does and that's it.

As I said, get him to make torque at 1800-2100 and you will be into a winner.
Just so you know, this car does. It produce peak torque anywhere near that shown in the dyno sheet. Too many tuners map for peak HP which is nonesense on the diesel.

[226bhp]

ZeusF said:

226bhp said:

ZeusF said:

To make your car feel better and be quicker on the road ask him to bring your torque down to around 1800-2100rpm.
It is way too high, peaking at near 3k

Unless the cam timing or induction length is electronically controlled and adjustable a mapper can't change the physical aspects of an engine, it will make its peak power where it does and that's it.

As I said, get him to make torque at 1800-2100 and you will be into a winner.
Just so you know, this car does. It produce peak torque anywhere near that shown in the dyno sheet. Too many tuners map for peak HP which is nonesense on the diesel.

Not a lot of that makes any sense, but how can you move the peak power/torque figure around in the rev range by making map changes?

[ZeusF]

226bhp said:

ZeusF said:

226bhp said:

ZeusF said:

To make your car feel better and be quicker on the road ask him to bring your torque down to around 1800-2100rpm.
It is way too high, peaking at near 3k

Unless the cam timing or induction length is electronically controlled and adjustable a mapper can't change the physical aspects of an engine, it will make its peak power where it does and that's it.

As I said, get him to make torque at 1800-2100 and you will be into a winner.
Just so you know, this car does. It produce peak torque anywhere near that shown in the dyno sheet. Too many tuners map for peak HP which is nonesense on the diesel.

Not a lot of that makes any sense, but how can you move the peak power/torque figure around in the rev range by making map changes?

Injection of fuel mixed with air will alter where the torque comes in and tails off. Maps control this aspect.
If it is easier I could post a pic which may explain a little better than words ?

[glasgowrob]

you've got me confused here guys lol

regards to peak torque I've got north of 300 lbs/ft from 1900 to 3400 rpm and 250 lbs/ft from 1500-4000 rpm




BUT to further discussion, would I see much in the way of benefits from going down the route of a hybrid turbo?

[ZeusF]

glasgowrob said:

you've got me confused here guys lol

regards to peak torque I've got north of 300 lbs/ft from 1900 to 3400 rpm and 250 lbs/ft from 1500-4000 rpm




BUT to further discussion, would I see much in the way of benefits from going down the route of a hybrid turbo?

Depends on what your after. You have he wrong model if your after te most powerful diesel in the range as your car is a touring class not a racing class. What boost are you peaking now ? What duty cycle on the injectors ? Rail pressure ?

[226bhp]

ZeusF said:

Injection of fuel mixed with air will alter where the torque comes in and tails off. Maps control this aspect.
If it is easier I could post a pic which may explain a little better than words ?

Feel free to explain it however you choose, although I don't think a pic will help here.
I'm intrigued to learn how a change in fuelling will change peak torque by 1000rpm, every day is a learning day....

[ZeusF]

This engine, the DW10, developed by Peugeot engineers for ford and then named TDCi from the factory gave peak power of 140ps (138hp) and peak torque appeared at 2160rpm running fuel pressure at 1800bar.
The tuner in question has increased pressure or fuel inj timing to extend fuel and therefor has increased the point where peak torque is achieved. Usually done via fuel inj timing map, rail pressure and boost although this is crude and not as simple as it seems to get right, even with the relatively lenient diesel engine in question.

As simple as it is to lower the torque level back to where the factory designed it in the first place, you can also extend it as has been done by the tuner in question and although there is nothing wrong with that, it can however "feel" quicker if lowered slightly. Similar to a turbo gas car where boost is achieved at a lower RPM giving the car more forward propulsion.

[glasgowrob]

what would you recommend to retain the same peak torque figures but to gain more torque lower down the rev range without sacrificing torque higher up,


curious if this can be achieved through modifications bolt on or otherwise or if this is something that can be achieved from the mapping side of things.

Zeuss you seem to know your ford engines, tis indeed a DW10 pug lump. but you've lost me i'm not the most technical of people.


just a quick update from the original mapping though I seem to have gained a solid 7-8 mpg on long distance runs post mapping which i'm obviously over the moon with. just feel the car could do with a "bit" more power

[ZeusF]

glasgowrob said:

what would you recommend to retain the same peak torque figures but to gain more torque lower down the rev range without sacrificing torque higher up,


curious if this can be achieved through modifications bolt on or otherwise or if this is something that can be achieved from the mapping side of things.

Zeuss you seem to know your ford engines, tis indeed a DW10 pug lump. but you've lost me i'm not the most technical of people.


just a quick update from the original mapping though I seem to have gained a solid 7-8 mpg on long distance runs post mapping which i'm obviously over the moon with. just feel the car could do with a "bit" more power

Given the extra MPG and decent power you have, it looks like the mapping company did a decent job of it. To make it "feel" quicker they could bring the torque down a little so that you feel more lower in the range which will make the car feel much better. The reason your torque comes in and goes off is probably down to the software upgrade done by someone who is forcing you to change gear at a given point, this is a great way to achieve better fuel economy. By lowering the rpm where peak torque is achieved you do run the risk of driving the car harder and therefor lowering the economy figures but only you can make this call.
Your car is OBD so not too time consuming to tune, maybe go back to the tuner and ask if he can do what I've mentioned, it won't need a new turbo as yours can flow enough air to do what your after and should be no more than half an hours work for the tuner.

[glasgowrob]

thanks for the reply Zeuss,

in all honesty though I don't want the car to feel quicker I want it to actually be quicker if that makes any sense.


id love to have more oomph available over a longer rev range, what supporting modifications should I be considering id love another 1000 rpm north of 300lbs/ft torque but I don't even know if this would be feasible

[ZeusF]

glasgowrob said:

thanks for the reply Zeuss,

in all honesty though I don't want the car to feel quicker I want it to actually be quicker if that makes any sense.


id love to have more oomph available over a longer rev range, what supporting modifications should I be considering id love another 1000 rpm north of 300lbs/ft torque but I don't even know if this would be feasible

The only real way to tell is to get the tuner to out the car on his dyno and log the car. Check the duty cycle of the injectors and measure boost. Log temps and you will have your answer. I am
Sure he will be able to sort you out.

[TheAllSeeingPie]

Usually you can get a tuner to disable the egr duty cycle, which effectively does the same as a delete but won't fail you on a mot. Also you then don't have to faff around with blanking plates and rerouting vacuum lines or electronic controllers.