Is it OK to "not quite" match your Bracket Class times ?
Discussion
Hello from Germany,
since there are some sportsmen racers in here I would like an answer to this :
Imagine you want to run in P/ET with their times from 9.00 - 11.99sec,
but your car will only do a 12.00 or 12.10.
Is it mandatory to run a time "within the class bracket" during quali or elims
or can a car that runs some 1/10s or 1/100s off the class time - but constant- also enter,
dial an 11:99 and constantly go low or very low 12s ?
since there are some sportsmen racers in here I would like an answer to this :
Imagine you want to run in P/ET with their times from 9.00 - 11.99sec,
but your car will only do a 12.00 or 12.10.
Is it mandatory to run a time "within the class bracket" during quali or elims
or can a car that runs some 1/10s or 1/100s off the class time - but constant- also enter,
dial an 11:99 and constantly go low or very low 12s ?
"can a car that runs some 1/10s or 1/100s off the class time - but constant- also enter,
dial an 11:99 and constantly go low or very low 12s ?"
This ^^^
As Nitrowars states it's tough to go rounds in Pro et for us Sportsman et interlopers. That said, 1/2 the field go out in 1st round and there's often some upsets. Always good to take down the odd big block and glide racer with a stick shift, small tyre, small block...
Billy
dial an 11:99 and constantly go low or very low 12s ?"
This ^^^
As Nitrowars states it's tough to go rounds in Pro et for us Sportsman et interlopers. That said, 1/2 the field go out in 1st round and there's often some upsets. Always good to take down the odd big block and glide racer with a stick shift, small tyre, small block...
Billy
There always have been some racers who think that, if you can't run inside the bracket, you shouldn't be allowed in. This thought is increasingly expressed now that entry fields have got above 32 cars, and until fields get to 49+, some people aren't going to qualify.
However, the rule in the UK is that if you can't run inside the bracket, you cannot dial a time outside the bracket so you're only reducing your chance of winning against a car that can run the numbers.
It's a shame if a car that can run numbers in the bracket doesn't qualify and a car that can't does qualify, but the answer is "improve", or get enough entries to bump up to a 64 car field. Which happened in Super Pro ET at the 2013 Euro Finals by only by the skin of our teeth. I only qualified #48th and, if it hadn't been for Dave Nelson queezing a qualifier in and making it 50 qualifiers, I wouldn't have raced. Which would have been a shame for me as I made it through to the final....
However, the rule in the UK is that if you can't run inside the bracket, you cannot dial a time outside the bracket so you're only reducing your chance of winning against a car that can run the numbers.
It's a shame if a car that can run numbers in the bracket doesn't qualify and a car that can't does qualify, but the answer is "improve", or get enough entries to bump up to a 64 car field. Which happened in Super Pro ET at the 2013 Euro Finals by only by the skin of our teeth. I only qualified #48th and, if it hadn't been for Dave Nelson queezing a qualifier in and making it 50 qualifiers, I wouldn't have raced. Which would have been a shame for me as I made it through to the final....
Yes, it's fine. I've raced in Pro ET in my car, even though it runs 12s. I just dialled 11.99 and was horribly uncompetitive. You need to meet the safety requirements of the class, so you'll need to have a roll cage as if you were capable of running 11.99 or quicker, but I had that anyway. As Martyn says, there are those that claim you should be disqualified if you don't run times that fall within the class cutoffs. But that's a) not in the rules, and b) ridiculous. A car running consistent 12.00s should be able to dial 11.99 and challenge for the win in Pro ET. Otherwise you're creating artificial "dead zones" where the car is too quick to run well in the slower class and not quick enough to be allowed in the quicker class.
Thanks for the answers so far, keep them coming.
As I don´t have an MSA rulebook at hand :
It is not mandatory to RUN a number within the class bracket but
it is mandatory to DIAL a number within the class bracket ?
In the german rulebook this is not stated clearly,
so I am looking for examples from other countries how this is stated and handled.
P.S.: Does the same apply to Super classes ?
As I don´t have an MSA rulebook at hand :
It is not mandatory to RUN a number within the class bracket but
it is mandatory to DIAL a number within the class bracket ?
In the german rulebook this is not stated clearly,
so I am looking for examples from other countries how this is stated and handled.
P.S.: Does the same apply to Super classes ?
Benni said:
It is not mandatory to RUN a number within the class bracket but
it is mandatory to DIAL a number within the class bracket ?
Correct.it is mandatory to DIAL a number within the class bracket ?
Benni said:
P.S.: Does the same apply to Super classes ?
Obviously the dialin is fixed, but the objective is to run as close to that as possible. You won't be alone if you don't manage it. For example, at the first FIA round this year, half of Super Gas were still in the 10s and about 1/3 of Super Comp were in the 9s. So no, it's not a problem.Tet said:
..............You need to meet the safety requirements of the class, so you'll need to have a roll cage as if you were capable of running 11.99 or quicker, but I had that anyway...............
Another question : Do you need to meet the safety requirements of the class, or the safety requirements of the ET you actually do ?A 12.03 car may enter P/ET but has to meet 9.00 safety specs ?
We do have some nice classic muscle cars here who don´t want to cut their full stock interior up
to fit a roll bar (required if faster then 12.00) or a full roll cage (required if faster than 10.00) in Germany.
So far, these are allowed in P/ET but one run under 12:00 means they are out for the weekend,
which I think is OK but maybe UK regs are different in that point.
Benni, the rules are available (in English and French) on the FIA website - www.fia.com.
Essentially, they say :-
Roll bar required in all cars running faster than 11.50 and for convertibles faster than 13.49 and all dune buggies.
Roll cage required all cars faster than 11.00 or quicker than 135 mph (217.2 kph). Full bodied cars with unaltered firewall, floor and body permitted roll bars in place of roll cage down to 10.00.
All cars faster than 10.00 must have tagged chassis.
Looks like we're all running the same rules ;-)
Martyn
Essentially, they say :-
Roll bar required in all cars running faster than 11.50 and for convertibles faster than 13.49 and all dune buggies.
Roll cage required all cars faster than 11.00 or quicker than 135 mph (217.2 kph). Full bodied cars with unaltered firewall, floor and body permitted roll bars in place of roll cage down to 10.00.
All cars faster than 10.00 must have tagged chassis.
Looks like we're all running the same rules ;-)
Martyn
Edited by MartynJones on Monday 16th June 08:40
Edited by MartynJones on Monday 16th June 08:42
Benni, the rules are available (in English and French) on the FIA website - www.fia.com.
Essentially, they say :-
Roll bar required in all cars running faster than 11.50 and for convertibles faster than 13.49 and all dune buggies.
Roll cage required all cars faster than 11.00 or quicker than 135 mph (217.2 kph). Full bodied cars with unaltered firewall, floor and body permitted roll bars in place of roll cage down to 10.00.
All cars faster than 10.00 must have tagged chassis.
Looks like we're all running the same rules ;-)
Martyn
Essentially, they say :-
Roll bar required in all cars running faster than 11.50 and for convertibles faster than 13.49 and all dune buggies.
Roll cage required all cars faster than 11.00 or quicker than 135 mph (217.2 kph). Full bodied cars with unaltered firewall, floor and body permitted roll bars in place of roll cage down to 10.00.
All cars faster than 10.00 must have tagged chassis.
Looks like we're all running the same rules ;-)
Martyn
Edited by MartynJones on Monday 16th June 08:40
Edited by MartynJones on Monday 16th June 08:42
Benni, the rules are available (in English and French) on the FIA website - www.fia.com.
Essentially, they say :-
Roll bar required in all cars running faster than 11.50 and for convertibles faster than 13.49 and all dune buggies.
Roll cage required all cars faster than 11.00 or quicker than 135 mph (217.2 kph). Full bodied cars with unaltered firewall, floor and body permitted roll bars in place of roll cage down to 10.00.
All cars faster than 10.00 must have tagged chassis.
Martyn
Essentially, they say :-
Roll bar required in all cars running faster than 11.50 and for convertibles faster than 13.49 and all dune buggies.
Roll cage required all cars faster than 11.00 or quicker than 135 mph (217.2 kph). Full bodied cars with unaltered firewall, floor and body permitted roll bars in place of roll cage down to 10.00.
All cars faster than 10.00 must have tagged chassis.
Martyn
Edited by MartynJones on Monday 16th June 08:42
Benni, the rules are available (in English and French) on the FIA website - www.fia.com.
Essentially, they say :-
Roll bar required in all cars running faster than 11.50 and for convertibles faster than 13.49 and all dune buggies.
Roll cage required all cars faster than 11.00 or quicker than 135 mph (217.2 kph). Full bodied cars with unaltered firewall, floor and body permitted roll bars in place of roll cage down to 10.00.
All cars faster than 10.00 must have tagged chassis.
Martyn
Essentially, they say :-
Roll bar required in all cars running faster than 11.50 and for convertibles faster than 13.49 and all dune buggies.
Roll cage required all cars faster than 11.00 or quicker than 135 mph (217.2 kph). Full bodied cars with unaltered firewall, floor and body permitted roll bars in place of roll cage down to 10.00.
All cars faster than 10.00 must have tagged chassis.
Martyn
Edited by MartynJones on Monday 16th June 08:48
one question -to @ll- is not answered :
Dave Nelson (dorrisdormouse) is quite correct and I should have been clearer, Benni, sorry.
In the FIA rules for the brackets, apart from Advanced ET which allows data loggers, there are no class rules, just safety rules based around the ET's that you run.
The FIA rules specify the ET breaks which follow the NHRA standard. I think there used to be a statement saying that the brackets were set at the discretion of the tracks involved, but I can't find that in the current documents.
Which leads on to my question for you, Benni. Are the bracket breaks in Germany set as they are in the UK? That is Super Pro 6.00-8.99, Pro 9.00 to 11.99 and Sportsman 12.00 upwards.
In the FIA rules for the brackets, apart from Advanced ET which allows data loggers, there are no class rules, just safety rules based around the ET's that you run.
The FIA rules specify the ET breaks which follow the NHRA standard. I think there used to be a statement saying that the brackets were set at the discretion of the tracks involved, but I can't find that in the current documents.
Which leads on to my question for you, Benni. Are the bracket breaks in Germany set as they are in the UK? That is Super Pro 6.00-8.99, Pro 9.00 to 11.99 and Sportsman 12.00 upwards.
Hello Martyn,
it seems that the standardisation has gone quite far in european Drag Racing, and rightly so,
if a racer goes abroad he/she is most likely to find the same rules and classes as in the home country.
In Germany there are
Super Pro ET 6,00 – 8,99 Sek.
Pro ET 9,00 – 11,99 Sek.
Sportsman ET 12,00 – 13,99 Sek. (very rarely on offer)
Street ET 14,00 Sek. and slower (non-existent)
Time Brackets may also be changed by the organiser, most run it like this
but sometimes P/ET is also allowing cars up to 12:99 in to make for bigger fields like in Bitburg this Weekend.
The safety classes are according to FIA :
ET I : 6,00 to 7,49 (*3,50 - 4,49)
ET II : 7,50 to 9,99 (*4,50-6,39)
ET III : 10.00 to 11,99 (*6,40-7,49)
ET IV : 12,00 to 13,99 (*7,50 – 8,59)
ET V : 14,00 and slower (*8,60 or slower)
(times in brackets are 1/8mile)
Ages ago, when PM was not an official FIA class,
these cars were run under "Advanced ET" safety rules in Hockenheim.
I have heard that in Sweden the ET classes are running under different brackets,
does anyone know how these are ?
it seems that the standardisation has gone quite far in european Drag Racing, and rightly so,
if a racer goes abroad he/she is most likely to find the same rules and classes as in the home country.
In Germany there are
Super Pro ET 6,00 – 8,99 Sek.
Pro ET 9,00 – 11,99 Sek.
Sportsman ET 12,00 – 13,99 Sek. (very rarely on offer)
Street ET 14,00 Sek. and slower (non-existent)
Time Brackets may also be changed by the organiser, most run it like this
but sometimes P/ET is also allowing cars up to 12:99 in to make for bigger fields like in Bitburg this Weekend.
The safety classes are according to FIA :
ET I : 6,00 to 7,49 (*3,50 - 4,49)
ET II : 7,50 to 9,99 (*4,50-6,39)
ET III : 10.00 to 11,99 (*6,40-7,49)
ET IV : 12,00 to 13,99 (*7,50 – 8,59)
ET V : 14,00 and slower (*8,60 or slower)
(times in brackets are 1/8mile)
Ages ago, when PM was not an official FIA class,
these cars were run under "Advanced ET" safety rules in Hockenheim.
I have heard that in Sweden the ET classes are running under different brackets,
does anyone know how these are ?
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