Forghieri speaks on the Glickenhaus car
Discussion
I cannot believe the moderators haven't stepped in to do something about this thread? Pistonheads is owned by haymarket, who publish Autocar, right? This thread, as well as being dull and repetitive, may also take a legal route. And as we can all see, the moderators let this thread continue.......
Anjum said:
I cannot believe the moderators haven't stepped in to do something about this thread? Pistonheads is owned by haymarket, who publish Autocar, right? This thread, as well as being dull and repetitive, may also take a legal route. And as we can all see, the moderators let this thread continue.......
Too much PC, let it continue......The history of this chassis has gaps in it.
There isn't a continuous history (i.e. whilst it was sitting in a pile of scrap metal at the back of the factory).
So whilst this probably is the chassis, it cannot be guaranteed.
Trying to prove one way or the other is impossible and fruitless but Elex is keeping the argument open and preventing the provenance of the chassis being taken for granted. Very annoying for the owner & tedious for onlookers.
There isn't a continuous history (i.e. whilst it was sitting in a pile of scrap metal at the back of the factory).
So whilst this probably is the chassis, it cannot be guaranteed.
Trying to prove one way or the other is impossible and fruitless but Elex is keeping the argument open and preventing the provenance of the chassis being taken for granted. Very annoying for the owner & tedious for onlookers.
Elex said:
Elex said:
Silent1 said:
Elex, what do you want to get out of this?
Let me tell you what I get out of this: I am passionate about the history of Ferrari and it sickens me that that history is being distorted by Mr Glickenhaus claiming that his replica is the original 0846. The link below by Road & Track is just one example where the Piper/Glickenhaus chassis is being stated as 0846 which is of course total BS. If I can inform people of the true facts then I admit to taking pleasure from that.http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-videos/ferrari-330...
Do you question the history of other Ferrari race cars then? Do you post on forums about those?
I'd love to know how deep this passion goes.
I call b
ks on that. You have a chip on your shoulder for some reason with Mr Glickenhaus and this particular car. Elex used to post quite a lot on FerrariChat.com where he was generally knowledgeable and inquisitive about the vintage cars.
His profile intimated that he was interested in a career in car sales, and was looking for opportunities in that area. A lot of his posting history was highlighting cars that Talacrest had for sale. The moderators formed the opinion that he was promoting that business as an non-sponsor of the forum and asked him to stop.
There was a fairly long thread on the the recent restoration of Ferrari 0858 that started life as a P4, was converted to a CanAm car, and then back to a P4 by Talacrest. Elex was a big supporter of the restoration, with some users believing him to be a stooge for Talacrest to promote the car and its restoration.
One of the biggest detractors of the restoration that Talacrest performed was James Glickenhaus.
His profile intimated that he was interested in a career in car sales, and was looking for opportunities in that area. A lot of his posting history was highlighting cars that Talacrest had for sale. The moderators formed the opinion that he was promoting that business as an non-sponsor of the forum and asked him to stop.
There was a fairly long thread on the the recent restoration of Ferrari 0858 that started life as a P4, was converted to a CanAm car, and then back to a P4 by Talacrest. Elex was a big supporter of the restoration, with some users believing him to be a stooge for Talacrest to promote the car and its restoration.
One of the biggest detractors of the restoration that Talacrest performed was James Glickenhaus.
Roaming.Panda said:
Elex used to post quite a lot on FerrariChat.com where he was generally knowledgeable and inquisitive about the vintage cars.
His profile intimated that he was interested in a career in car sales, and was looking for opportunities in that area. A lot of his posting history was highlighting cars that Talacrest had for sale. The moderators formed the opinion that he was promoting that business as an non-sponsor of the forum and asked him to stop.
There was a fairly long thread on the the recent restoration of Ferrari 0858 that started life as a P4, was converted to a CanAm car, and then back to a P4 by Talacrest. Elex was a big supporter of the restoration, with some users believing him to be a stooge for Talacrest to promote the car and its restoration.
One of the biggest detractors of the restoration that Talacrest performed was James Glickenhaus.
Curiouser and curiouser.His profile intimated that he was interested in a career in car sales, and was looking for opportunities in that area. A lot of his posting history was highlighting cars that Talacrest had for sale. The moderators formed the opinion that he was promoting that business as an non-sponsor of the forum and asked him to stop.
There was a fairly long thread on the the recent restoration of Ferrari 0858 that started life as a P4, was converted to a CanAm car, and then back to a P4 by Talacrest. Elex was a big supporter of the restoration, with some users believing him to be a stooge for Talacrest to promote the car and its restoration.
One of the biggest detractors of the restoration that Talacrest performed was James Glickenhaus.
As a neutral, my observation on the point of the risk of legal action is this - I expect this Glickenhaus chap isn't short of a bob or two. I expect he has decent lawyers. If he thought he had grounds , surely he would have had his lawyers write an appropriate missive to Mr Elex by now.
NEWS FROM CHRISTIAN HUET - AUTHOR OF THE "TECHNICAL DATA SHEET" PUBLISHED IN JAMES GLICKENHAUS'S 0846 DOCUMENT.
The following is from pages 63 and 64 of James Glickenhaus's 0846 pdf document.
Glickenhaus says: "I thought about that and recently noticed something.
The following is taken from the "TECHNICAL DATA SHEET" of "330 P3/P4 Chassis n.
0846" The only car in all the Technical Data Sheets labeled "330 P3/P4"
" -330 P3/P4 -
SCHEDA TECNICA" (TECHNICAL DATA SHEET)
330 P3/P4 (1967)
Telaio N 0846
Trasformazione di un modello P3 secondo le caratteristiche del modello P4.
TELAIO
Telaio Tipo 593/603. Trasformazione della parte posteriore tubolare del
telaio per i nuovi putoni del motore
Tipo 237."
"330 P3/P4 (1967)
Chassis n. 0846
64
Transformation of a P3 model according to the characteristics of the P4
model.
Chassis
Type 593/603. Transformation of the tubular part at the rear of the chassis
for new Type 237 [P4] engine mountings."
Glickenhaus says: This transformation of 593/603 P3 to P4 is clearly visible on my chassis and doesn't exist
on 0900, 0900a, or 0856 as they are built to the 1967 P4 chassis blueprints. By comparing
my chassis with P3 0844, one can see how this transformation from P3 to P4 was done."
No, James, the above transformation of 593/603 P3 to P4 is NOT clearly visible in your chassis and I will explain why:
Recently I have been communicating with Christian Huet, the highly regarded French Ferrari writer who is the author of the "TECHNICAL DATA SHEET" above which is cited in JG's pdf document and other places as proof that his chassis is the original and authentic 0846. Please note that James Glickenhaus does not give credit to Christian Huet or his Cavalleria book Ferrari 330 P3/412P as the source of information that he has copied and published in his 0846 document.
Regarding the engine mountings of the original and real 0846 Christian Huet stated in writing (in French which was translated):
"I have found the notebook for my books about Ferrari, where I wrote my questions and Mauro Forghieri's replies. Concerning 0846, the modification of the P3 type 593 chassis, into a P4 type 603 required the total replacement of the rear of the chassis, which was then, absolutely identical to those of the P4s type 603."
After looking at the pictures from his 0846 document of the engine mountings on James Glickenhaus's chassis, Christian Huet stated the following:
"Concerning the photos showing the engine mounting of the P4 motor on "the so-called 0846", I deduce that it's a "DIY job" without any relationship to the original 0846 and without any relationship with the work practices of Ferrari, which I have studied/known for many years."
I have the written permission of Christian Huet to share his information.
The following is from pages 63 and 64 of James Glickenhaus's 0846 pdf document.
Glickenhaus says: "I thought about that and recently noticed something.
The following is taken from the "TECHNICAL DATA SHEET" of "330 P3/P4 Chassis n.
0846" The only car in all the Technical Data Sheets labeled "330 P3/P4"
" -330 P3/P4 -
SCHEDA TECNICA" (TECHNICAL DATA SHEET)
330 P3/P4 (1967)
Telaio N 0846
Trasformazione di un modello P3 secondo le caratteristiche del modello P4.
TELAIO
Telaio Tipo 593/603. Trasformazione della parte posteriore tubolare del
telaio per i nuovi putoni del motore
Tipo 237."
"330 P3/P4 (1967)
Chassis n. 0846
64
Transformation of a P3 model according to the characteristics of the P4
model.
Chassis
Type 593/603. Transformation of the tubular part at the rear of the chassis
for new Type 237 [P4] engine mountings."
Glickenhaus says: This transformation of 593/603 P3 to P4 is clearly visible on my chassis and doesn't exist
on 0900, 0900a, or 0856 as they are built to the 1967 P4 chassis blueprints. By comparing
my chassis with P3 0844, one can see how this transformation from P3 to P4 was done."
No, James, the above transformation of 593/603 P3 to P4 is NOT clearly visible in your chassis and I will explain why:
Recently I have been communicating with Christian Huet, the highly regarded French Ferrari writer who is the author of the "TECHNICAL DATA SHEET" above which is cited in JG's pdf document and other places as proof that his chassis is the original and authentic 0846. Please note that James Glickenhaus does not give credit to Christian Huet or his Cavalleria book Ferrari 330 P3/412P as the source of information that he has copied and published in his 0846 document.
Regarding the engine mountings of the original and real 0846 Christian Huet stated in writing (in French which was translated):
"I have found the notebook for my books about Ferrari, where I wrote my questions and Mauro Forghieri's replies. Concerning 0846, the modification of the P3 type 593 chassis, into a P4 type 603 required the total replacement of the rear of the chassis, which was then, absolutely identical to those of the P4s type 603."
After looking at the pictures from his 0846 document of the engine mountings on James Glickenhaus's chassis, Christian Huet stated the following:
"Concerning the photos showing the engine mounting of the P4 motor on "the so-called 0846", I deduce that it's a "DIY job" without any relationship to the original 0846 and without any relationship with the work practices of Ferrari, which I have studied/known for many years."
I have the written permission of Christian Huet to share his information.
Edited by Elex on Saturday 25th April 22:30
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