S1 or S2 Elise as a Daily Driver

S1 or S2 Elise as a Daily Driver

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bpmd

Original Poster:

11 posts

117 months

Sunday 22nd June 2014
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Hi all, sure this has probably been done to death over the years, but was hoping to borrow from the collective experience to help me make a decision on my next car.

I've loved the Elise since my days as a Performance Car reading college / university student, and have decided that some form of this needs to be my next car.

To set context, I live in a village in County Durham, and the car will primarily be used for me to drive alone on my 20 mile commute. I'm very fortunate in the fact that my commute is almost entirely made of up national limit country back roads, and I like to drive a car which makes this as close to leisure time as it can be.

On occasion I may do some motorway miles (usually runs to Leeds at 1.5hrs), Worksop 2hrs 20, or Solihull at 3.5 to 4hrs)

My last sports car which was a 1992 Eunos, which was fairly modified running 174bhp & 143ft/lb - Jackson Racing S/C, Adaptronic ECU, 4-2-1 Manifold, de-cat, Gas Classic coil-overs, larger 1.8 brakes etc.

I'm used to cars which ride firmly, and also relatively low. I loved the Eunos, which was still a working project for me when and circumstances outside of my control (broken gearbox on a Cuore Avanzato TR-XX which I couldn't get repaired only 3 months after paying healthy money for it) caused my wife to put her foot down and insist we got some more modern cars.

The current drives at the moment, are a Renaulsport Twingo, and a Panda 4x4. The Twingo was supposed to be my car, but I've lost it to my better half who prefers the way it drives. I've driven about in the Panda for about two months now, and while I do think it's a cracking car it's far from what I'd be driving given the choice.

I've decided that an Elise is the way forward but, like many have got firmly bogged down in the mire of all the model options out there. Key models I think I'm torn between are S1 standard, S1 111s, and S2 111s.

Some mental pro's and cons on the two models:

S1 Pros:
- Lighter
- Cheaper to buy
- higher ride height for my poorly finished country roads
- might hold value better
- super simple styling
- prettier than the S2 for my money I think
- the original and the best?

S1 Cons:
- Roof unbelievably awkward
- roof leaks!
- heaters struggle to clear screen in the winter (the car would be used, but would be garaged at least)
- Tax more expensive than the S2
- flat rate tax means you might as well have the extra performance of the 111s...
- ...but the additional spoiler on the 111s kills the looks for me

S2 Pros:
- Better roof design means it's actually usable as a convertible
- faster
- cheaper to tax
- better mpg
- better stereo
- nicer dash
- slightly more forgiving handling

S2 Cons:
- heavier
- more expensive to buy (seems to be about +£5k at the moment)
- more likely to depreciate
- less pretty
- slightly more forgiving handling

I seem to be wavering between the fact that I definitely prefer the S1, then the S2 at 15 minute intervals, and my wife is not going to put up with me spending all my spare time attached to the computer for very much longer!

I think I know that the S2 would be a more rounded car, that would would probably be easier to live with and actually use as a convertible. I love my music just as much as I love my driving, so the stereo is more important to me than it would be to most of you Elise owners. I'd be looking at the 111s, so I'd benefit from lower tax, better MPG and a faster car than the standard S1.

That said, at present I'm leaning more towards wanting the purity of the S1 experience. In real life for the driving I do, the difference between high 5s and low 5s to 60 isn't really going to make much practical difference. On a good day I'd drive the car home from work with the roof off, garage it, then put the roof back on when I got to work the next morning.

I'm totally prepared to live with a bit of water ingress, had a mk 2.5 mohair roof on the Eunos that could drip when you did things with windows etc in the wet.

Does anyone have any experience of both?

One of the closest S2 111s to me at the moment looks like a great proposition (and has a nice Larini exhaust fitted already), that said, I'm just very aware that I could be picking up a decent S1, saving myself £5k and actually ending up with a car that I'd have more fun driving day in day out.


To clarify, I think I'm the one that's a bit more cautious in spending the cash for the S2, my wife much prefers the look of the S1 to the S2, but ultimately says; "whatever you buy, I don't want to hear you saying, 'well I got this car, but THIS is the car I should have bought' 6 month down the line." It's fair to say I have form in this area so she probably has a point...

400SE Dave

1,296 posts

170 months

Sunday 22nd June 2014
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If you do buy an S1 it may well be £5k less but factor in the fact that it may need some money thrown at immediately for suspension refrsh for example, after all the newest S1 will be 13 years old already. It is lighter but not so significantly you would feel it in everyday use. Could be the S1 will hold its value better although low mileage, original ones will be the biggest gainer in this, once modified, in my opinion, it is just down to whether someone wants one with the specific mods done. Roof for sure is easier on an S2.

You don't mention the Budget you are wanting to spend so not sure if you are comparing Toyota engined S2's to the the K series ones. K series cars, whether S1 or S2 are known for HGF so make sure the 'improved' gasket has been used on any previous HG repair, if not it will probably go again.

Styling is a personal thing, I had an S1 and still look at them and think they look mega, however I look at the S2's and they look mega in a different way.

I guess this doesn't help too much, it really does depend on which one floats your boat.

clarkmagpie

3,559 posts

194 months

Sunday 22nd June 2014
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I ran an s2 as a daily for a couple of years.
For the money, nothing turns heads like a little red, loud, lairy lotus!
Sure, it was expensive and things went wrong.
But, it was a car that every single time I parked up, I glanced round and just had to look at it.


CSK423

761 posts

206 months

Sunday 22nd June 2014
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I had a s1 bell colvill super 140 for 5yrs and used it as a daily for about 3 of those years.

I was immune to the stiff ride and gymnastic entry / exit until I moved into an A4 as my daily.

I would agree with the points above, regards s1 parts cars will be coming up which need steering racks(along with column uj wear), shocks, arb's and possibly a radiator (the have plastic expansion end caps which pop).

Not overally expensive I think a oem shocker (bilstein iirc) were 50quid each.

I had all of the above and HGF (new gasket with the stainless steel dowels, the oem plastic ones are possibly why the gasket fails with all the change in temp) but it certainly didnt ruin me, they are fiddly plastic cars but alot of self repairs are easily do able.

Another note is the accelerator mechanism under the dash, the top hat bush can wear resulting in alot of play. An easy fixy along with buttons for the bits.

The above shouldnt put you off !

itcaptainslow

3,694 posts

135 months

Sunday 22nd June 2014
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Definitely a S2 for daily use. The things that irritate me about my S1 (heat soak into the cabin, leaky roof, crap heater, stereo inaudible above 60mph, 3,600rpm @ 70mph) that don't matter when taken out for the occasional blat would utterly piss me off using it day to day.

I went out in a S3 yesterday and it was actually usable-really comfy Probax seats, a decent (by Lotus standards) stereo, a 6th gear and A/C-it had the good bits of mine but softened slightly around the edges so it could be enjoyed more of the time.

However, when you want a raw, seat of the pants drive, I absolutely love mine. Which is the only thing it comes out for...

otolith

55,899 posts

203 months

Sunday 22nd June 2014
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On the stereo front - both cars are extremely noisy. An S2 111S would be the most civilised of those you are looking at, but at motorway speed you will need your stereo very loud! Less of an issue on your commute.

kambites

67,461 posts

220 months

Sunday 22nd June 2014
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I run an S2 111S as a daily, and used to quite often use a standard S1 belonging to a friend. A few points to note:

Don't make the assumption that there was a step change in build quality or weight when the S1 became the S2. The car got gradually heavier and better made over the years but the late S1s were only a few kg lighter than the early S2s and were debatably better made because a few issues were introduced with the changes that came in with the S2.

The S2 had two roofs, the short-tail and the long-tail. Both are much better than the S1's tent. There were also variosu changes to the seals which made the car more waterproof as the years went by; the last improvement to the roof was for MY04.

My S2 has 130mm ride height front and rear... which is more than the wife's Octavia. The only grounding issues I've had have been touching the nose on the ground coming out of steep driveways.

Don't expect much different in economy between the mainstream K-series powered cars. They're closer than the figures suggest. The S2 111S is the cheapest to tax, but the difference is small enough that it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.

There's not a huge difference in price between S1s and early S2s and consequently there's little different in residuals. I think both are very slowly creeping upwards at the moment.


There's a complete breakdown of the cost of running my S2 as a low-mileage daily driver in my profile.



Buy on condition rather than service history or mileage. Many have been maintained at home to a far higher standard than a standard main dealer service schedule would show. Suspension tend to be need a rebuild every 50k miles or so (obviously this varies depending on the type of driving) and will present you with a four figure bill unless you do the work yourself so take that into account if looking at older cars.


ETA: Consider the VX220, too.

Edited by kambites on Sunday 22 June 13:31

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Sunday 22nd June 2014
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It sounds like the OP has a very similar commute and circumstance to me when I bought my Elise S2 111S. I loved it and used it as a daily driver for years. The noise on the motorway and the need carry big things around eventually relegated it to my second car, but they make fantastic daily drivers - I'd highly recommend one and very little comes close for driving enjoyment. A friend of mine owns lots of cars and has driven just about everything, but he and I agree that the Elise is pretty much the best car either of us has driven.

The S2 was developed with a much bigger budget than the S1 and in my opinion is a better car. If you can drive better than Clarkson, then the often spoken of understeer (mainly by him) just isn't an issue. The S2 actually handles better due to being lower, stiffer, having bespoke tyres to counteract the unusual balance and it produces mild downforce at speed rather than lift centred over the back of the car! (as with the S1).

Highly recommended :-)

Edited by RobM77 on Sunday 22 June 16:19

deltashad

6,731 posts

196 months

Sunday 22nd June 2014
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I never had an issue using my S2 as a daily. It's reasonable on fuel, parking is easy (it's short), the boot is quite large and you can always use the passenger area and compartment behind the seats.
they turn heads and are a dream to drive.
Personally I find the S1 is not as pretty. The resale will always be high.
my worst experience is the lack of parts. I had an accident in December, the Car is still in the workshop waiting on a clam!

lamboman100

1,445 posts

120 months

Sunday 22nd June 2014
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Buy both. Use on alternate weeks.

otolith

55,899 posts

203 months

Sunday 22nd June 2014
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And as the engineer pointed out to Clarkson, if it really bothers you wider front tyres make it go away.

Tiger Tim

1,810 posts

221 months

Sunday 22nd June 2014
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I feel relatively qualified to put something towards this.

Worked for lotus in the early 00's and have driven all derivatives of the S1 and S2 up to the 111R.

I now have an S2 rover engined car.


As the other guys have said the roof is a pain on the s1 and the general consensus is that you need to be a little more committed to Lotus to run an s1 daily. I bought a low mileage s2. Immediately had the HG done and a suspension refresh using Quantum Zero suspension.

It's tight as a drum now. You can fit preventative measures against HGF. A PRRT, aluminium rad, manual fan switch, better gasket and regularly change the expansion tank cap. All these things will make for a reliable and characterful engine.

If you can get one the smart money goes into a 135R. The downside being that you'll want to keep miles off it as Elise based cars as mileage sensitive in terms of value.

I'm brain dumping here so there's loads more to bare in mind but yes you can do an S2 daily. You can do an S1 daily and I know people that have. It's just less pleasant in the winter.

Lotus is in my blood and no doubt it'll be my Gran Torino...

Facian

56 posts

136 months

Sunday 22nd June 2014
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I've used my S2 111S daily for just under a year now and done just over 10k miles in it, and i've very rarely had a day where i wish i was in something more practical. The stereo is fine with the roof on, but over 50/60 with the roof off you need to crank it up pretty loud to hear it!

My commute sounds similar to yours, just under 20 miles each way and almost all NSL B-Roads and since removing the Gaz coilovers that it came fitted with for some low mileage standard Bilstein shocks it's been fantastic. It rides well and always makes you feel a part of the journey, but without the harshness that it suffered on the stiffer suspension.

I'd drive a few though as it's very subjective, i tried an S1 (regular K) engine car but found it felt too flighty and not keyed into the road, and the Toyota engined Elise S i tried was too far the other way and felt a bit too smooth and refined (but didn't really feel slower than the 111S, just less 'raw').

I'd like to try a later supercharged car, but i think that would prove expensive for me...

bpmd

Original Poster:

11 posts

117 months

Sunday 22nd June 2014
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Thanks for all the insight everyone. Must say, the favoured car I can see listed is an s2 111s 29k miles 1 owner fsh and a Larini exhaust (which I remember as bwing very well regarded in the mx5 circles).It's of that age where you got Touring pack, but still manual windows.

Still can't fully shake the notion that I don't want an S1.

I reckon cars at about £16k are at the to of what I'm comfortable spending, but would prefer to part ex at that point given the choice.

Oh, and build #110 of the 135rs is one of the closer sub £20k cars to me. Two things worry me though - 1) I'd be putting the miles on it that might kill it, and 2) the place selling it seems to mainly do fibreglass repairs first, and also sells a few cars on the side (pistonheads / ebay trader tvrglen anyone?).

Probably nothing suspicious, but given my recent luck with cars, I'm worried I'd end up buying a money pit!

kambites

67,461 posts

220 months

Sunday 22nd June 2014
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Putting miles on a Sport 135 isn't going to kill it, it'll just mean when you come to sell it that a small but significant proportion of the potential market will ignore it.

For a 16k daily driver, I think you'll struggle to beat an S2 111S or 111R, though, you should be able to get either in budget. Neither is really "better" than the other, they're just different with the biggest difference being the brakes.


Larini make various different exhausts for the Elise, some of them are rather loud for a daily driver.


Edited by kambites on Sunday 22 June 18:25

pthelazyjourno

1,848 posts

168 months

Sunday 22nd June 2014
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itcaptainslow said:
Definitely a S2 for daily use. The things that irritate me about my S1 (heat soak into the cabin, leaky roof, crap heater, stereo inaudible above 60mph, 3,600rpm @ 70mph) that don't matter when taken out for the occasional blat would utterly piss me off using it day to day.

I went out in a S3 yesterday and it was actually usable-really comfy Probax seats, a decent (by Lotus standards) stereo, a 6th gear and A/C-it had the good bits of mine but softened slightly around the edges so it could be enjoyed more of the time.

However, when you want a raw, seat of the pants drive, I absolutely love mine. Which is the only thing it comes out for...
Heater in the S1 is a lot better than the one in the S2.

Moospeed

542 posts

264 months

Sunday 22nd June 2014
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bpmd said:
Thanks for all the insight everyone. Must say, the favoured car I can see listed is an s2 111s 29k miles 1 owner fsh and a Larini exhaust (which I remember as bwing very well regarded in the mx5 circles).It's of that age where you got Touring pack, but still manual windows.

Still can't fully shake the notion that I don't want an S1.

I reckon cars at about £16k are at the to of what I'm comfortable spending, but would prefer to part ex at that point given the choice.

Oh, and build #110 of the 135rs is one of the closer sub £20k cars to me. Two things worry me though - 1) I'd be putting the miles on it that might kill it, and 2) the place selling it seems to mainly do fibreglass repairs first, and also sells a few cars on the side (pistonheads / ebay trader tvrglen anyone?).

Probably nothing suspicious, but given my recent luck with cars, I'm worried I'd end up buying a money pit!
Oof! I wasn't going to reply as the other replies seem to be covering it and it's your personal choice at the end of the day. But erm... tvr Glen, you might want to get on seloc and do a quick search for 'tvr glen' and 'tvr dean'. I've not had personal experience myself but seriously check before spending.

For me, I've had three S1's and a VX220turbo. For your daily commute if I were in your shoes I'd be picking the S2 or a VX. The S1 roof would pee me off more than the purity of the drive.

Then again, the hardtop on the S1 is easier to put on than the soft top (plus looks great) and even easier than the S2 soft or hard tops. Another option maybe....


bpmd

Original Poster:

11 posts

117 months

Monday 23rd June 2014
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Golly - thanks for that, already had them filed in my 'not to be trusted' category, and that confirms the gut instinct.

To be honest, the other thing about the 135r that made me think it wouldn't be right for my intended use was that it's got lower firmer suspension. There's some decidingly interesting bits of tarmac around where I live that mean's something with a slightly taller / softer setup is more useable.


I am still completely torn. Really do need to test drive a couple to get a feel, but the problem is I'm looking at at least a 3hr round trip to get to a garage that's got both an S1 and an S2 I could compare. The S2 111s that I think is still sitting as favourite option would be more like 5hrs round trip.

We're busy at the moment in my house, so I'll seriously struggle to get that time in.

I do a good line in getting over-excited and buying the first thing I look at, but am going to be firm with myself and take time to find the right car this time out!

kambites

67,461 posts

220 months

Monday 23rd June 2014
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One other point - you don't say whether you have a garage, but if you're planning to keep the car outside in the winter I would strongly recommend finding a car with air conditioning. The cabin always ends up getting a bit damp and if you have no garage you'll have no way to dehumidify it in the winter unless you have air conditioning. Once it gets damp, the water evaporates and condenses on the inside of the windscreen then freezes, which means you have to wait for the engine to warm up and defrost it every time you want to drive anywhere.

Shnozz

27,422 posts

270 months

Monday 23rd June 2014
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S2. Had both and as an everydayer its a no-brainer. They dont drive that much different to one another anyway.