Caterham F1 Gone?
Discussion
According to this they are currently okay on their allocations:
http://www.formula1blog.com/f1-news/power-unit-use...
http://www.formula1blog.com/f1-news/power-unit-use...
The employees who were let go are now suing Caterham for unfair dismissal.
ETA: Link: http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/28491380
ETA: Link: http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/28491380
confucuis said:
The employees who were let go are now suing Caterham for unfair dismissal.
ETA: Link: http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/28491380
Unsurprising. Yu can't buy a company and then just sack people with no consultation or notice or pay in lieu of notice.ETA: Link: http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/28491380
Strange there is no 'fit & proper person test' in F1 for buyers - they don't even know who the buyers are.
johnfm said:
Unsurprising. Yu can't buy a company and then just sack people with no consultation or notice or pay in lieu of notice.
Strange there is no 'fit & proper person test' in F1 for buyers - they don't even know who the buyers are.
Its not that simple is it...Strange there is no 'fit & proper person test' in F1 for buyers - they don't even know who the buyers are.
If you need to make more than 20 positions redundant you have to do the collective consultation thing, there is a fairly well defined procedure for this.
So, did they not do it ?
Or is there a complication - lets say 20 are from the race team and 20 from composites, the consultation thing is not relevant (different employers)
Maybe TUPE laws come in to play ? it all depends exactly what they have done with the legal entities.
Do we know these people were on permanent contracts ? any clauses that could render them void ?
I find it hard to believe that someone would take over a company and not have their legal team look at employment contracts, if only to understand what exactly they've got in them. They would have likely started drawing up redundancy plans after going through the books etc, so legal team would still be around, I find it difficult to believe that a legal team would not correctly advise of the laws surrounding the redundancy plans etc.
I am slightly cynical that this lawyer guy is promising them what they want to hear and collecting a tidy sum for doing so. Why start suing start away ? why not talk to ACAS and get them to mediate first ? That process alone will find any non-compliance to laws with regards to the redundancy process...
I was quite surprised too.
I expect there is more of this to come. I'm not convinced the outgoing or incoming owners care too much for the finer points of the legal process - and there were probably bigger concerns during the transaction than litigation risk from 40 or so employees.
I guess they have done a cost/benefit analysis and figured it will be cheaper to just dismiss them without notice or pay in lieu and see how they go.
I expect there is more of this to come. I'm not convinced the outgoing or incoming owners care too much for the finer points of the legal process - and there were probably bigger concerns during the transaction than litigation risk from 40 or so employees.
I guess they have done a cost/benefit analysis and figured it will be cheaper to just dismiss them without notice or pay in lieu and see how they go.
johnfm said:
Unsurprising. Yu can't buy a company and then just sack people with no consultation or notice or pay in lieu of notice.
Strange there is no 'fit & proper person test' in F1 for buyers - they don't even know who the buyers are.
worse than that: didn't even pay their last months wages for prior to when then were sacked. Strange there is no 'fit & proper person test' in F1 for buyers - they don't even know who the buyers are.
Does not bode well for the team - others still working there will be brushing up their CVs to cut and run whilst/if they can.
llewop said:
johnfm said:
Unsurprising. Yu can't buy a company and then just sack people with no consultation or notice or pay in lieu of notice.
Strange there is no 'fit & proper person test' in F1 for buyers - they don't even know who the buyers are.
worse than that: didn't even pay their last months wages for prior to when then were sacked. Strange there is no 'fit & proper person test' in F1 for buyers - they don't even know who the buyers are.
Does not bode well for the team - others still working there will be brushing up their CVs to cut and run whilst/if they can.
Possibly the buyers are relying on the cost and hassle of litigation - but I think employment tribunals are a different matter and are less costly and quicker than court.
johnfm said:
The letter I saw suggests they will be paid up to the day day they were demised without notice - but I guess it might be different for different people.
as you say - may be different for different people - and they may (eventually) be paid up to date of dismissal: but I was told via a friend that (some at least) where not paid their last months wages when it would normally have been paid.Slightly odd press release from Caterham F1 - you'd think they would keep quiet and let the lawyers deal with it
CATERHAM F1 TEAM STATEMENT
Leafield Technical Centre, UK – 29th July 2014
Caterham F1 Team has read with great concern recent reports about a group of individuals who are claiming unfair dismissal from the Formula 1 team following its takeover by new owners.
The team is now taking legal action against those parties representing the individuals concerned, and each person involved, seeking compensation for the damages suffered by the team due to the gross misrepresentation of the facts made by all those concerned.
These claims include the statement that they have been released from Caterham F1 Team – this is incorrect. Caterham F1 Team’s staff are employed by a company that is a supplier to the company that holds its F1 licence, the licence that allows it to compete in the Formula 1 World Championship.
Additionally, the team has read claims that its staff were not paid in July – again, this is wholly untrue. Every individual currently employed by Caterham F1 Team was paid their July salary in full on 25th July, one week before it is formally due on the last day of the month, in this case 31st July.
A formal request for the withdrawal of the relevant press statement issued on 28th July has been made by Caterham F1 Team and the team will vigorously pursue its action against all those concerned. However, it will not allow its core focus to be distracted from achieving tenth place in the 2014 Formula 1 World Championship, and building for the 2015 campaign and beyond.
Ends
To download Caterham F1 Team hi-res images, rights free for editorial use, go to http://caterh.am/HiResImages All images must be credited "Caterham F1 Team" and are made available strictly for editorial use. Any commercial, marketing or advertising use will be at the discretion of Caterham F1 Team.
CATERHAM F1 TEAM STATEMENT
Leafield Technical Centre, UK – 29th July 2014
Caterham F1 Team has read with great concern recent reports about a group of individuals who are claiming unfair dismissal from the Formula 1 team following its takeover by new owners.
The team is now taking legal action against those parties representing the individuals concerned, and each person involved, seeking compensation for the damages suffered by the team due to the gross misrepresentation of the facts made by all those concerned.
These claims include the statement that they have been released from Caterham F1 Team – this is incorrect. Caterham F1 Team’s staff are employed by a company that is a supplier to the company that holds its F1 licence, the licence that allows it to compete in the Formula 1 World Championship.
Additionally, the team has read claims that its staff were not paid in July – again, this is wholly untrue. Every individual currently employed by Caterham F1 Team was paid their July salary in full on 25th July, one week before it is formally due on the last day of the month, in this case 31st July.
A formal request for the withdrawal of the relevant press statement issued on 28th July has been made by Caterham F1 Team and the team will vigorously pursue its action against all those concerned. However, it will not allow its core focus to be distracted from achieving tenth place in the 2014 Formula 1 World Championship, and building for the 2015 campaign and beyond.
Ends
To download Caterham F1 Team hi-res images, rights free for editorial use, go to http://caterh.am/HiResImages All images must be credited "Caterham F1 Team" and are made available strictly for editorial use. Any commercial, marketing or advertising use will be at the discretion of Caterham F1 Team.
Well, looks like they are saying that Caterham F1 didn't dismiss anybody, because Caterham F1 aren't the contractula employer.
Looks like Caterham Sports Limited are the employer and they were then contracting out their employees to Caterham F1.
Not sure how Caterham are going to quantify the 'damage' they claim to their reputation resulting from legal claims. Very much doubt that the claims are (at this point in time) 'public' to any great extent.
I expect that Caterham Sports will now assign the remaining employees contracts to a new company, leaving the disputed contracts with Caterham Sports and leave a hollow shell for employees to sue. But I don't think this approach will shield the mystery buyer from TUPE liability.
This will get interesting, messy and public - as it will either play out in court or an employment tribunal unless one of the Caterham or new owner entities settle the claims - which will be for around 3 months pay for each employee.
Though without seeing the contracts of employment it is all speculation.
Hopefully, the remaining engineers, modellers, designers etc can get on with the job of getting the car 2-3 sec faster or they are all toast.
Looks like Caterham Sports Limited are the employer and they were then contracting out their employees to Caterham F1.
Not sure how Caterham are going to quantify the 'damage' they claim to their reputation resulting from legal claims. Very much doubt that the claims are (at this point in time) 'public' to any great extent.
I expect that Caterham Sports will now assign the remaining employees contracts to a new company, leaving the disputed contracts with Caterham Sports and leave a hollow shell for employees to sue. But I don't think this approach will shield the mystery buyer from TUPE liability.
This will get interesting, messy and public - as it will either play out in court or an employment tribunal unless one of the Caterham or new owner entities settle the claims - which will be for around 3 months pay for each employee.
Though without seeing the contracts of employment it is all speculation.
Hopefully, the remaining engineers, modellers, designers etc can get on with the job of getting the car 2-3 sec faster or they are all toast.
woof said:
Slightly odd press release from Caterham F1 - you'd think they would keep quiet and let the lawyers deal with it
CATERHAM F1 TEAM STATEMENT
Leafield Technical Centre, UK – 29th July 2014
Caterham F1 Team has read with great concern recent reports about a group of individuals who are claiming unfair dismissal from the Formula 1 team following its takeover by new owners.
The team is now taking legal action against those parties representing the individuals concerned, and each person involved, seeking compensation for the damages suffered by the team due to the gross misrepresentation of the facts made by all those concerned.
These claims include the statement that they have been released from Caterham F1 Team – this is incorrect. Caterham F1 Team’s staff are employed by a company that is a supplier to the company that holds its F1 licence, the licence that allows it to compete in the Formula 1 World Championship.
Additionally, the team has read claims that its staff were not paid in July – again, this is wholly untrue. Every individual currently employed by Caterham F1 Team was paid their July salary in full on 25th July, one week before it is formally due on the last day of the month, in this case 31st July.
A formal request for the withdrawal of the relevant press statement issued on 28th July has been made by Caterham F1 Team and the team will vigorously pursue its action against all those concerned. However, it will not allow its core focus to be distracted from achieving tenth place in the 2014 Formula 1 World Championship, and building for the 2015 campaign and beyond.
Ends
To download Caterham F1 Team hi-res images, rights free for editorial use, go to http://caterh.am/HiResImages All images must be credited "Caterham F1 Team" and are made available strictly for editorial use. Any commercial, marketing or advertising use will be at the discretion of Caterham F1 Team.
I'd raise your 'slightly' to 'very' in light of the bits in bold... which could imply that they've paid no July salaries as no one is actually employed by Caterham F1 Team! CATERHAM F1 TEAM STATEMENT
Leafield Technical Centre, UK – 29th July 2014
Caterham F1 Team has read with great concern recent reports about a group of individuals who are claiming unfair dismissal from the Formula 1 team following its takeover by new owners.
The team is now taking legal action against those parties representing the individuals concerned, and each person involved, seeking compensation for the damages suffered by the team due to the gross misrepresentation of the facts made by all those concerned.
These claims include the statement that they have been released from Caterham F1 Team – this is incorrect. Caterham F1 Team’s staff are employed by a company that is a supplier to the company that holds its F1 licence, the licence that allows it to compete in the Formula 1 World Championship.
Additionally, the team has read claims that its staff were not paid in July – again, this is wholly untrue. Every individual currently employed by Caterham F1 Team was paid their July salary in full on 25th July, one week before it is formally due on the last day of the month, in this case 31st July.
A formal request for the withdrawal of the relevant press statement issued on 28th July has been made by Caterham F1 Team and the team will vigorously pursue its action against all those concerned. However, it will not allow its core focus to be distracted from achieving tenth place in the 2014 Formula 1 World Championship, and building for the 2015 campaign and beyond.
Ends
To download Caterham F1 Team hi-res images, rights free for editorial use, go to http://caterh.am/HiResImages All images must be credited "Caterham F1 Team" and are made available strictly for editorial use. Any commercial, marketing or advertising use will be at the discretion of Caterham F1 Team.
Actually I know they did pay those still employed (or at least some of them...) - no matter who they are/were employed by!
It looks like Caterham F1 are trying to worm their way out of their employer obligations. I would guess that this will end up in front of an Employment Tribunal or even a court and will become an important and high profile employment law case.
Just because an individual is not employed directly by you does not mean you are off the hook regarding your obligation as an employer and you are not off the hook regarding redundancy procedures.
There is already quite a body of employment law cases that back these employees and their legal representatives will be able to rely on.
Just because an individual is not employed directly by you does not mean you are off the hook regarding your obligation as an employer and you are not off the hook regarding redundancy procedures.
There is already quite a body of employment law cases that back these employees and their legal representatives will be able to rely on.
llewop said:
woof said:
Slightly odd press release from Caterham F1 - you'd think they would keep quiet and let the lawyers deal with it
CATERHAM F1 TEAM STATEMENT
Leafield Technical Centre, UK – 29th July 2014
Caterham F1 Team has read with great concern recent reports about a group of individuals who are claiming unfair dismissal from the Formula 1 team following its takeover by new owners.
The team is now taking legal action against those parties representing the individuals concerned, and each person involved, seeking compensation for the damages suffered by the team due to the gross misrepresentation of the facts made by all those concerned.
These claims include the statement that they have been released from Caterham F1 Team – this is incorrect. Caterham F1 Team’s staff are employed by a company that is a supplier to the company that holds its F1 licence, the licence that allows it to compete in the Formula 1 World Championship.
Additionally, the team has read claims that its staff were not paid in July – again, this is wholly untrue. Every individual currently employed by Caterham F1 Team was paid their July salary in full on 25th July, one week before it is formally due on the last day of the month, in this case 31st July.
A formal request for the withdrawal of the relevant press statement issued on 28th July has been made by Caterham F1 Team and the team will vigorously pursue its action against all those concerned. However, it will not allow its core focus to be distracted from achieving tenth place in the 2014 Formula 1 World Championship, and building for the 2015 campaign and beyond.
Ends
To download Caterham F1 Team hi-res images, rights free for editorial use, go to http://caterh.am/HiResImages All images must be credited "Caterham F1 Team" and are made available strictly for editorial use. Any commercial, marketing or advertising use will be at the discretion of Caterham F1 Team.
I'd raise your 'slightly' to 'very' in light of the bits in bold... which could imply that they've paid no July salaries as no one is actually employed by Caterham F1 Team! CATERHAM F1 TEAM STATEMENT
Leafield Technical Centre, UK – 29th July 2014
Caterham F1 Team has read with great concern recent reports about a group of individuals who are claiming unfair dismissal from the Formula 1 team following its takeover by new owners.
The team is now taking legal action against those parties representing the individuals concerned, and each person involved, seeking compensation for the damages suffered by the team due to the gross misrepresentation of the facts made by all those concerned.
These claims include the statement that they have been released from Caterham F1 Team – this is incorrect. Caterham F1 Team’s staff are employed by a company that is a supplier to the company that holds its F1 licence, the licence that allows it to compete in the Formula 1 World Championship.
Additionally, the team has read claims that its staff were not paid in July – again, this is wholly untrue. Every individual currently employed by Caterham F1 Team was paid their July salary in full on 25th July, one week before it is formally due on the last day of the month, in this case 31st July.
A formal request for the withdrawal of the relevant press statement issued on 28th July has been made by Caterham F1 Team and the team will vigorously pursue its action against all those concerned. However, it will not allow its core focus to be distracted from achieving tenth place in the 2014 Formula 1 World Championship, and building for the 2015 campaign and beyond.
Ends
To download Caterham F1 Team hi-res images, rights free for editorial use, go to http://caterh.am/HiResImages All images must be credited "Caterham F1 Team" and are made available strictly for editorial use. Any commercial, marketing or advertising use will be at the discretion of Caterham F1 Team.
Actually I know they did pay those still employed (or at least some of them...) - no matter who they are/were employed by!
They seem to be aiming to distance the operating company from the F1 team and the licence holder.
A thought occurs, arguably one of the most valuable assets an F1 has got is it's licence. If the licence is held by one company and all the other operating costs are covered by another, doesn't that mean they can put the the operating company into administration and still sell the valuable bit?
This is just semantics, but in legal terms those semantics do matter. I suspect that the press release from Caterham is factually correct, however it is nothing more than an hugely clumsy attempt to play hard ball with the ex-employees.
This is a massive PR own goal and to me drives the final nail into any residual positive feelings I had for this debacle of an F1 team. I suspect that the team is not long for this world and I for one won't mourn it, other than to feel sorry for the people who find themselves without jobs.
This is a massive PR own goal and to me drives the final nail into any residual positive feelings I had for this debacle of an F1 team. I suspect that the team is not long for this world and I for one won't mourn it, other than to feel sorry for the people who find themselves without jobs.
Megaflow said:
Indeed. Lots of careful use of legal company names, not the operating names, to carefully separate one from the other.
They seem to be aiming to distance the operating company from the F1 team and the licence holder.
A thought occurs, arguably one of the most valuable assets an F1 has got is it's licence. If the licence is held by one company and all the other operating costs are covered by another, doesn't that mean they can put the the operating company into administration and still sell the valuable bit?
Bingo.They seem to be aiming to distance the operating company from the F1 team and the licence holder.
A thought occurs, arguably one of the most valuable assets an F1 has got is it's licence. If the licence is held by one company and all the other operating costs are covered by another, doesn't that mean they can put the the operating company into administration and still sell the valuable bit?
PW said:
Read back a page or so...
to what exactly? Surely not the 'no one sacked was employed by the team was employed by the team/everyone has been paid' smoke and mirrors?I know what I've said above is accurate as it is from someone involved.
I really hope the team survives and improves it's competetiveness but this current episode does not fill me with confidence that the future is bright not least as the present is somewhat murky. The sitiation needs to be resolved quickly and in accordance with employment law/practices, otherwise I am sure many still with the team will be looking for more security elsewhere.
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