Dual liner speed limit grey area

Dual liner speed limit grey area

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Discussion

wessexrfc

Original Poster:

4,326 posts

185 months

Friday 25th July 2014
quotequote all
This is what drives me mad, I have a DPV and some tools, I have a better brake system than a transit and apparently can only do fifty. A transit van full of children can do sixty!!!! Could someone point me in the direction of some logic please!!
They've just announced that they are increasing the max speed for lorrys on nsl roads to fifty, so thats ok as they have great braking distances!!! Anyone else smell a money making rat here???

barker22

1,037 posts

166 months

Friday 25th July 2014
quotequote all
wessexrfc said:
Looks like a dying cause due to description on the V5 document describing it as a "light goods" and "panel van" despite this van having glass panels all-round as you would with a minibus and not metal as you would with a normal panel van. Have replied back to them saying this and that it is a multi-purpose vehicle and sending photos of the glass and seats behind the drivers seat, not looking too hopeful frown .
bks to that. If yo are correct, fight it.
My motorbike says bicycle on the tax class. I doubt they would let me off doing things because the paperwork says so in my case, so they shouldn't prosecute either.

TooMany2cvs

29,008 posts

125 months

Friday 25th July 2014
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Does _any_ V5C _say_ "Dual-Purpose Vehicle" on it? If it meets the requirements, that's all you need.

FiF

43,965 posts

250 months

Saturday 26th July 2014
quotequote all
wessexrfc said:
Looks like a dying cause due to description on the V5 document describing it as a "light goods" and "panel van" despite this van having glass panels all-round as you would with a minibus and not metal as you would with a normal panel van. Have replied back to them saying this and that it is a multi-purpose vehicle and sending photos of the glass and seats behind the drivers seat, not looking too hopeful frown .
Sorry to hear you have been pinged.

As far as I am concerned the description on the V5C from that paragon of accuracy (sarcastic) the DVLA matters square root of bugger all in this.

The regs don't talk about what is written on the registration document but the actual vehicle.

Providing you have replied to the s172 request and identified the driver thus avoiding the failing to nominate trap then given the full details of the vehicle and it does meet the requirements of a dpv then, in theory, you should be home and dry.

You need to cover the specifics as listed earlier. Ulw < 2040 kgs, solid roof, extra row of seats, glass of sufficient area behind B pillar and rear of vehicle, sufficient load space behind the second row of seats, then it should be sleeved for no further action.

If not you will have to get a lawyer on the job and make them look stupid.

One hopes that with the revision to lorry speed limits that was briefly mentioned they take the opportunity to tidy up all the rest of this vehicle speed limit shambles. The matter of car derived vans being a particular dog's breakfast.

GoneAnon

1,703 posts

151 months

Saturday 26th July 2014
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I work for a Mercedes-Benz commercial dealer and our guidance from the manufacturer is that Vito van and dualiner have van speed limits, van VED, van VAT, and van tax treatment.

Vito Traveliner is a car for all these purposes.

And for the person who said it is not based on any car in the MB car range, the Viano passenger car is the same base vehicle as Vito and comes from the same factory. It is also treated as a car.

Super Slo Mo

5,368 posts

197 months

Saturday 26th July 2014
quotequote all
wessexrfc said:
This is what drives me mad, I have a DPV and some tools, I have a better brake system than a transit and apparently can only do fifty. A transit van full of children can do sixty!!!! Could someone point me in the direction of some logic please!!
They've just announced that they are increasing the max speed for lorrys on nsl roads to fifty, so thats ok as they have great braking distances!!! Anyone else smell a money making rat here???
a truck will probably out brake a transit.

FiF

43,965 posts

250 months

Saturday 26th July 2014
quotequote all
GoneAnon said:
I work for a Mercedes-Benz commercial dealer and our guidance from the manufacturer is that Vito van and dualiner have van speed limits, van VED, van VAT, and van tax treatment.

Vito Traveliner is a car for all these purposes.

And for the person who said it is not based on any car in the MB car range, the Viano passenger car is the same base vehicle as Vito and comes from the same factory. It is also treated as a car.
That's quite interesting, thanks.

However as far as the Dualiner is concerned I'm sticking to my guns on this.

Just like the V5C description, in respect of the applicable speed limits, the law does not refer to the VED, nor the VAT status, nor the tax, it all hinges on the vehicle description in conjunction with the type of road upon which the vehicle was being driven. Full stop. Rule off.

All the other stuff aboutt vans traveliner and viano is correct.

I'd be interested to hear why M-B make that advice re Dualiner speed limits. Definitely remember reading quite some time ago in an official M-B publication about accessories for the Vito. Re the second row of seats they talked about they could be removed for extra load area, and made particular point about this could alter the dpv designation. Something to do with the removal of seat mountings was a particular point of emphasis iirc. They seemed to indicate that you could temporarily remove the second row of seats and it would still class as a dpv but that removal of the seat mountings would definitely remove the dpv classification. Personally thought that advice was twaddle and the seats had to be in place.

All too complicated by half. Reckon will write to my MP about this.


FiF

43,965 posts

250 months

Saturday 26th July 2014
quotequote all
OP you may be interested in this thread

Vclass said:
Recently received a "Notice of Intended Prosecution" for travelling at 69mph on a dual carriageway part of the A303. I was pretty surprised to say the least, the offence was exceeding the limit for a goods vehicle. I browsed around the web a bit but didn't find a definitive answer as to whether a dualiner (or travelliner for that matter) is a car or a goods vehicle; it could be a car, but suggestion was that it also depends on use. Since I do not use the vehicle for trade - just like our old V-class - I thought it should be classed as a car for speeding.
So herewith my experience for anyone with the same problem:
After speaking to the "Safety Partnership" hotline, I wrote in explaining that the vehicle is not used for trade, and including photo's that showed the front and the numberplate, (that's all the speed camera guys see) the second window, and the second row of seats. Within a few days a letter of apology and withdrawel of NIP.
Btw the thread does include a suggestion that if you have a long wheelbase and the V6 engine and other heavy manufacturer options fitted e.g. a second battery you might struggle with the ulw<2040kgs.

So devil in detail. Good luck sticking it to them.


GoneAnon

1,703 posts

151 months

Saturday 26th July 2014
quotequote all
The V5C describes the van and the Dualiner as Goods Vehicles and the Traveliner as a Passenger vehicle.

I've never seen one sayng Dual Purpose Vehicle so the government really should simplify and clarify the rules.

While they are at it,they should standardise driving entitlements for different vehicles. It is a nonsense that I can borrow a 7.5T truck for my own use, but I can't move the same vehicle to another branch for my employer.


FiF said:
That's quite interesting, thanks.

However as far as the Dualiner is concerned I'm sticking to my guns on this.

Just like the V5C description, in respect of the applicable speed limits, the law does not refer to the VED, nor the VAT status, nor the tax, it all hinges on the vehicle description in conjunction with the type of road upon which the vehicle was being driven. Full stop. Rule off.

All the other stuff aboutt vans traveliner and viano is correct.

I'd be interested to hear why M-B make that advice re Dualiner speed limits. Definitely remember reading quite some time ago in an official M-B publication about accessories for the Vito. Re the second row of seats they talked about they could be removed for extra load area, and made particular point about this could alter the dpv designation. Something to do with the removal of seat mountings was a particular point of emphasis iirc. They seemed to indicate that you could temporarily remove the second row of seats and it would still class as a dpv but that removal of the seat mountings would definitely remove the dpv classification. Personally thought that advice was twaddle and the seats had to be in place.

All too complicated by half. Reckon will write to my MP about this.

mph1977

12,467 posts

167 months

Saturday 26th July 2014
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Gone anon be careful what you wish for

just to add to the fun i know of a number of situations where you can drive C1s 'for work ' without a tacho or Driver CPC ...

Super Slo Mo

5,368 posts

197 months

Sunday 27th July 2014
quotequote all
You can drive a C or C+E too without either in the same situations, although technically you come under British Domestic driving rules and thus are supposed to use a logbook instead.
Very few people do, and in my experience, VOSA aren't very interested if you're legally running under an exemption.

mph1977

12,467 posts

167 months

Sunday 27th July 2014
quotequote all
Super Slo Mo said:
You can drive a C or C+E too without either in the same situations, although technically you come under British Domestic driving rules and thus are supposed to use a logbook instead.
Very few people do, and in my experience, VOSA aren't very interested if you're legally running under an exemption.
not in all cases - and given the anality over driving paperwork of the organisations in question i'm fairly sure they would enforce triple reporting if they thought they might need to ( all ready double reported via the organisation's resourcing system (though not in real time due to politicis over giving people necessary access) and vehicle daily check sheets )

wessexrfc

Original Poster:

4,326 posts

185 months

Monday 28th July 2014
quotequote all
Struggling!!!:


As stated in my previous email the vehicle is registered with the DVLA as a lights goods vehicle therefore if you wish to dispute this please contact the DVLA directly as the notice still stands.

Kind Regards

Laura Ferris
Admin Team Leader
Speed Enforcement Unit
Criminal Justice Department

To help muddy the water, here is a helpful link given by Laura, of the aptly named department rolleyes
https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

There at the top is "dual purpose vehicle" Can anyone explain/describe what a "dual purpose" vehicle is, if not a car/van that can carry people and i.e. tools/bike/kitchen sink at the same time???!!! Has anyone change the description on the V5 with the DVLA and does this change the taxation of the vehicle, I thinking, making this a car = personnel car taxation???
Bloody nightmare and just realised, I only drove passed the damn camera due to missing my exit off the round about and going the wrong way!!!!!! Grrrrrrrrrr


FiF

43,965 posts

250 months

Monday 28th July 2014
quotequote all
This is ridiculous.

As previously posted. The speed limit regulations specify the regs which define what is a dpv.

If you provide evidence to them and the DVLA that your vehicle meets those regulations, then the police have to prove that it does not meet the regulations.

Time for a lawyer.

Super Slo Mo

5,368 posts

197 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
quotequote all
mph1977 said:
Super Slo Mo said:
You can drive a C or C+E too without either in the same situations, although technically you come under British Domestic driving rules and thus are supposed to use a logbook instead.
Very few people do, and in my experience, VOSA aren't very interested if you're legally running under an exemption.
not in all cases - and given the anality over driving paperwork of the organisations in question i'm fairly sure they would enforce triple reporting if they thought they might need to ( all ready double reported via the organisation's resourcing system (though not in real time due to politicis over giving people necessary access) and vehicle daily check sheets )
I suspect things have changed a bit.
Back when I first started running a small fleet, we were covered by a specific exemption (late 90's early 2000's). I was stopped by VOSA or whatever they were called then (Ministry of transport I think), on more than one occasion. Once they realised I was exempt from EU regs, and wasn't carrying goods commercially, they lost interest and walked away.
In fact, because of the branding on the truck I drove, the first question they asked was whether or not I was running with a tacho in. Once I'd said no, they'd take a quick look at my licence and bugger off.

No doubt it's all been tightened up nowadays though.

jellypig

112 posts

146 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
quotequote all
I agree on the Dualiners in the brochure complying with the dual purpose vehicle thing. But some dualiners have a solid rear tailgate.
I'm looking at the ad for one now. Lets call it Van1.
I'm also looking at an ad for one with a window in the back. Van2.

Same spec on everything else.

Van2 is a bit newer (and hence probably out of budget) , a nicer colour, but basically the same as Van1

I'm not a "speed merchant" but I live in a county with no motorways, and so every "out of town" journey begins on a dual carriageway.
Van 1 - 60mph on the A1.
Van 2 - 70mph on the A1 then?

because of the window?


SS2.

14,455 posts

237 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
quotequote all
wessexrfc said:
To help muddy the water, here is a helpful link given by Laura, of the aptly named department rolleyes
https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits
That doesn't muddy the waters in the slightest, IMO - either your vehicle meets the statutory requirements of a DPV, or it doesn't. As FiF has already stated, it is this and this alone that matters - not the vehicle type on the V5C, not the taxation class, not the factually incorrect responses of an SCP drone.

wessexrfc said:
There at the top is "dual purpose vehicle" Can anyone explain/describe what a "dual purpose" vehicle is...
See Page 1 - perhaps Ms. Ferris could do worse than genning up on the same.

Have you returned the completed s.172 form yet ?

wessexrfc

Original Poster:

4,326 posts

185 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
quotequote all
SS2. said:
wessexrfc said:
To help muddy the water, here is a helpful link given by Laura, of the aptly named department rolleyes
https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits
That doesn't muddy the waters in the slightest, IMO - either your vehicle meets the statutory requirements of a DPV, or it doesn't. As FiF has already stated, it is this and this alone that matters - not the vehicle type on the V5C, not the taxation class, not the factually incorrect responses of an SCP drone.

wessexrfc said:
There at the top is "dual purpose vehicle" Can anyone explain/describe what a "dual purpose" vehicle is...
See Page 1 - perhaps Ms. Ferris could do worse than genning up on the same.

Have you returned the completed s.172 form yet ?
If only it was this simple, I fear some more letters and photos heading to the DVLA. U have asked for a full explanation as to how a vehicle complies with their interpretation of a dual purpose vehicle. We wait with bated breath!!!!.......

Edited by wessexrfc on Tuesday 29th July 23:17

Flibble

6,470 posts

180 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
GoneAnon said:
The V5C describes the van and the Dualiner as Goods Vehicles and the Traveliner as a Passenger vehicle.

I've never seen one sayng Dual Purpose Vehicle so the government really should simplify and clarify the rules.

While they are at it,they should standardise driving entitlements for different vehicles. It is a nonsense that I can borrow a 7.5T truck for my own use, but I can't move the same vehicle to another branch for my employer.
In a sense they did; they removed the right to drive 7.5T trucks for your own use. You presumably passed long enough ago to still have the entitlement, but I wouldn't shout too loud or they might take it. wink

SS2.

14,455 posts

237 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
wessexrfc said:
If only it was this simple, I fear some more letters and photos heading to the DVLA.
I wouldn't bother pursuing the DVLA. The definition of a DPV is clear and unambiguous - irrespective of what a bean counter at DVLA might say, as long as your vehicle meets the definition posted on Page 1 of this thread, then car speed limits apply.

You didn't confirm whether or not you had returned the completed s.172 form.