Discussion
Welshbeef said:
S 8 GRN said:
There is nothing broad about the message death to all Jews - it's quite specific. Whether chanted at a pro Israeli rally or not the message is clear and clearly understood.
So 600+ dead mainly children babies women and innocent men with thousands badly injured v 30 Israeli soldiers. Care to address this than skirt the issue. When they have to cope with the cowardly antics of Hamas and their 'human shield' regime, things will ( sadly) get messy.
The inhabitants of Gaza deserve a proper leadership and maybe one day they will have this opportunity if and when Hamas is thoroughly dealt with, as it needs to be. Or do you believe Israel should get into discussions with an Islamist terrorist outfit to try to sort things out?
Have you ever considered what would happen if Hamas had Israel's firepower ( or even part of it ) and Israel only had what they have. Answer that and the issue you mention is addressed.
enioldjoe said:
Have you ever considered what would happen if Hamas had Israel's firepower ( or even part of it ) and Israel only had what they have. Answer that and the issue you mention is addressed.
I think if Hamas had more firepower then Israel would be much more inclined to come to the negotiating table. As things stand Israel is doing pretty much what it wants, in both Gaza and the West Bank.S 8 GRN said:
I don't recall her saying she was a Zionist? (could be wrong)
There is no default position that if you're a Zionist you therefore support the action in Gaza.
There are different elements to Zionism.
I believe that there are individuals that use controversy to further their own personal agenda, I believe this to be the case in the individual concerned above, I believe he was called out for not denouncing the rise in anti-Semitism occurring.
What Israel is doing currently is unacceptable - they need to accept responsibility for the fact that they are the cause of the rise in attacks around the world - and that the whole f
kin point for me of an Israeli state and Zionism is to protect Jews from exactly this by holding governments to account instead of pissing people off and killing them in their own backyard, be a beacon of morality (which it is not), contribute to the people of the world (what ever their background)
This said there is no place for anti-Semitism - it is on the rise - it is far deeper rooted than just Gaza driving people to express themselves in this abhorent way. It is evident on Pistonheads at times though perspective sadly will not reveal it to all. I can only hope that those on here and out there appreciate that fact else 6,000,000 died for nothing.
Good post and well said S8GRN. Sadly, from my perspective when I see pictures of dead children, hospitals being bombed, and families being wiped out, I do not view Israel as a beacon of morality or democracy. There is no other people on this earth that understand what it's like to be persecuted better than Jews. Like you said 6 million Jews died for nothing and the Israeli government is doing nothing positive or moral in memory of the 6M dead and in memory of those who fought fascism and paid with their lives.There is no default position that if you're a Zionist you therefore support the action in Gaza.
There are different elements to Zionism.
I believe that there are individuals that use controversy to further their own personal agenda, I believe this to be the case in the individual concerned above, I believe he was called out for not denouncing the rise in anti-Semitism occurring.
What Israel is doing currently is unacceptable - they need to accept responsibility for the fact that they are the cause of the rise in attacks around the world - and that the whole f
kin point for me of an Israeli state and Zionism is to protect Jews from exactly this by holding governments to account instead of pissing people off and killing them in their own backyard, be a beacon of morality (which it is not), contribute to the people of the world (what ever their background)This said there is no place for anti-Semitism - it is on the rise - it is far deeper rooted than just Gaza driving people to express themselves in this abhorent way. It is evident on Pistonheads at times though perspective sadly will not reveal it to all. I can only hope that those on here and out there appreciate that fact else 6,000,000 died for nothing.
Countdown said:
enioldjoe said:
Have you ever considered what would happen if Hamas had Israel's firepower ( or even part of it ) and Israel only had what they have. Answer that and the issue you mention is addressed.
I think if Hamas had more firepower then Israel would be much more inclined to come to the negotiating table. As things stand Israel is doing pretty much what it wants, in both Gaza and the West Bank.Israel isn't doing 'what it wants'. It's doing what needs to be done. A lot of people can see this. A lot, unfortunately can't.
Ok, I bowed out ages ago but frankly the utter lack of understanding here is stunning.
Let me first explain why I have a little understanding. I hold a degree in International Relations where I specialised in the ME. I have lived in Tel Aviv AND spent considerable time in the occupied territories. I once owned a company which employed predominantly Palestinians (programmers mainly, average earning were just over double the national average for Israel.
So,lets start with the comparisons the IRA - Utter rubbish. The IRA DID NOT focus on civilians, it did not chuck literally thousands of rockets every year into populated area. I don't just mean right now, I mean year on year on year. Israeli deaths are low in part because by law ever building broadly requires a bomb shelter and they have phenomenal civilian defence. But I assure you living in a city where for years rockets land is not fun but I do accept that from a PR perspective, building bomb shelters is a bad move, better to let civilians die as it looks better for people too stupid to understand the concept of civilian protection.
Now, lets move on to the famous blockade.... Hamas has said it will accept no ceasefire without a lifting of the blockaded by both Israel and Egypt. So how on earth ios attacking Israel going to remove a blockade enforced more stringently by Egypt? Orhow about the demand that Eygpt opens the boarder? Israel has control over that do they?! But hey, dont let little facts like the reality of the blockade count.
OK, onto settlements. Lets be clear. Israel, under Sharon, and with the use of the military, closed the settlements in Gaza bout 9 years ago. Moaning they are still there is nuts. THEY ARE NOT. Thats not up for debate. Its a simple fact. They remain in both the WB and around some parts of Jerusalem (one could argue part of Jerusalem is in the West Bank so may be the same thing on one level. So saying they are part of this is simply factually wrong. Want more proof? OK, Abbas himself, the only elected leader (Hamas voided elections and refused to re-run) has been strong in his condemnation, in the last week, of Hamas despite being in a semi coalition government with them. Smart chap is Abbas, he has a stronger economy, more freedom, better educaation, better everything beccuase he does not try to wipe out Isreal and represents his people. Hamas are in power by force, not democracy.
Next, Israel as a democracy. I have read things on here like Israeli Arabs don't have rights, don't have votes, are not allowed in certain roads etc. Interesting stuff. Utterly wrong. Again, I don;t care whaat has been written, I lived there. I employed Arabs, Jews, Christians, Citizens, Immigrants, Palestinians etc. Many lost their jobs because Hamas refused to let them into Israel which made coming to work a bit tough.
Israel is a long way from perfect but to intimate that somehow it can negotiate with Hamas when Hamas have stated the basic position requires promises Israel cannot give (like access to Eygpt!) is nuts.
Then we have the Strip being refered to as a concentration camp. I have been there, many times. It is not heaven on earth but actually, medical care, water and power for example (provided and paid for by Israel, even right now) are all reliable. In fact, it is easy to find report affter report that Hamas leaders have sent kids to Israel for medical treatment, supplied free and sent back. WOuld make a great hostage for evil Israel....
The PPalestinians in Gaza ahave a terrible deal, but the role of Egypt is utterly ignored because of the inconvenient truth. As are 12,000 missiles in 6 months, or the tiny fact that Abbas himself with a strong mandate was banned from Gazza by Hamas for being a traitor. Yet he has forged the very beginnings of a solution, tony but vital steps on both sides.
And to those who bang the drum of settlements.... I repeat... in Gaza there are NONE. Blockade - Hamas themselves have stated it needs to be lifted by Egypt... How on earth Israel is supposed to do this is a mystery to anyone.
SO while i respect we all have different views, perhaps a little understanding of the reality, may help to forge a more balanced discussion, but frankly, I doubt it.
It matters not a jot if someone is a civilian on either side, any death is obviously terrible but to point to the fact that Israel protects it population with shelters, warnings and Iron Dome as proof they are all evil is simply utterly flawed logic.
And perhaps one of the reasons Israel could not care less about public opinion is an opinion based on zero understanding is irrelevant to them and rightly so.
Let me first explain why I have a little understanding. I hold a degree in International Relations where I specialised in the ME. I have lived in Tel Aviv AND spent considerable time in the occupied territories. I once owned a company which employed predominantly Palestinians (programmers mainly, average earning were just over double the national average for Israel.
So,lets start with the comparisons the IRA - Utter rubbish. The IRA DID NOT focus on civilians, it did not chuck literally thousands of rockets every year into populated area. I don't just mean right now, I mean year on year on year. Israeli deaths are low in part because by law ever building broadly requires a bomb shelter and they have phenomenal civilian defence. But I assure you living in a city where for years rockets land is not fun but I do accept that from a PR perspective, building bomb shelters is a bad move, better to let civilians die as it looks better for people too stupid to understand the concept of civilian protection.
Now, lets move on to the famous blockade.... Hamas has said it will accept no ceasefire without a lifting of the blockaded by both Israel and Egypt. So how on earth ios attacking Israel going to remove a blockade enforced more stringently by Egypt? Orhow about the demand that Eygpt opens the boarder? Israel has control over that do they?! But hey, dont let little facts like the reality of the blockade count.
OK, onto settlements. Lets be clear. Israel, under Sharon, and with the use of the military, closed the settlements in Gaza bout 9 years ago. Moaning they are still there is nuts. THEY ARE NOT. Thats not up for debate. Its a simple fact. They remain in both the WB and around some parts of Jerusalem (one could argue part of Jerusalem is in the West Bank so may be the same thing on one level. So saying they are part of this is simply factually wrong. Want more proof? OK, Abbas himself, the only elected leader (Hamas voided elections and refused to re-run) has been strong in his condemnation, in the last week, of Hamas despite being in a semi coalition government with them. Smart chap is Abbas, he has a stronger economy, more freedom, better educaation, better everything beccuase he does not try to wipe out Isreal and represents his people. Hamas are in power by force, not democracy.
Next, Israel as a democracy. I have read things on here like Israeli Arabs don't have rights, don't have votes, are not allowed in certain roads etc. Interesting stuff. Utterly wrong. Again, I don;t care whaat has been written, I lived there. I employed Arabs, Jews, Christians, Citizens, Immigrants, Palestinians etc. Many lost their jobs because Hamas refused to let them into Israel which made coming to work a bit tough.
Israel is a long way from perfect but to intimate that somehow it can negotiate with Hamas when Hamas have stated the basic position requires promises Israel cannot give (like access to Eygpt!) is nuts.
Then we have the Strip being refered to as a concentration camp. I have been there, many times. It is not heaven on earth but actually, medical care, water and power for example (provided and paid for by Israel, even right now) are all reliable. In fact, it is easy to find report affter report that Hamas leaders have sent kids to Israel for medical treatment, supplied free and sent back. WOuld make a great hostage for evil Israel....
The PPalestinians in Gaza ahave a terrible deal, but the role of Egypt is utterly ignored because of the inconvenient truth. As are 12,000 missiles in 6 months, or the tiny fact that Abbas himself with a strong mandate was banned from Gazza by Hamas for being a traitor. Yet he has forged the very beginnings of a solution, tony but vital steps on both sides.
And to those who bang the drum of settlements.... I repeat... in Gaza there are NONE. Blockade - Hamas themselves have stated it needs to be lifted by Egypt... How on earth Israel is supposed to do this is a mystery to anyone.
SO while i respect we all have different views, perhaps a little understanding of the reality, may help to forge a more balanced discussion, but frankly, I doubt it.
It matters not a jot if someone is a civilian on either side, any death is obviously terrible but to point to the fact that Israel protects it population with shelters, warnings and Iron Dome as proof they are all evil is simply utterly flawed logic.
And perhaps one of the reasons Israel could not care less about public opinion is an opinion based on zero understanding is irrelevant to them and rightly so.
Countdown said:
enioldjoe said:
Have you ever considered what would happen if Hamas had Israel's firepower ( or even part of it ) and Israel only had what they have. Answer that and the issue you mention is addressed.
I think if Hamas had more firepower then Israel would be much more inclined to come to the negotiating table. As things stand Israel is doing pretty much what it wants, in both Gaza and the West Bank.When protesters shout 'Free Palestine - From The River To The Sea' they are quoting Hamas. They are calling for the destruction of Israel and the Jews.
enioldjoe said:
Do you really believe that Israel would negotiate with Islamist Terrorists? Do you believe that anyone should??
Israel isn't doing 'what it wants'. It's doing what needs to be done. A lot of people can see this. A lot, unfortunately can't.
Does Israel need to build Settlements, evict Palestinians from their land, and criss-cross the WB with Settler-only roads?Israel isn't doing 'what it wants'. It's doing what needs to be done. A lot of people can see this. A lot, unfortunately can't.
It's sad that you can't see the real reason behind the rockets.
supersingle said:
Yeah, what Hamas wants is negotiations. It definitely doesn't want to establish an Islamic state in place of Israel. It doesn't want to obliterate Israel. Those bits of the Hamas Charter are just a little joke.
When protesters shout 'Free Palestine - From The River To The Sea' they are quoting Hamas. They are calling for the destruction of Israel and the Jews.
Could you explain why Israel hasn't made peace with Fatah?When protesters shout 'Free Palestine - From The River To The Sea' they are quoting Hamas. They are calling for the destruction of Israel and the Jews.
Pappa Lurve said:
Ok, I bowed out ages ago but frankly the utter lack of understanding here is stunning.
Let me first explain why I have a little understanding. I hold a degree in International Relations where I specialised in the ME. I have lived in Tel Aviv AND spent considerable time in the occupied territories. I once owned a company which employed predominantly Palestinians (programmers mainly, average earning were just over double the national average for Israel.
So,lets start with the comparisons the IRA - Utter rubbish. The IRA DID NOT focus on civilians, it did not chuck literally thousands of rockets every year into populated area. I don't just mean right now, I mean year on year on year. Israeli deaths are low in part because by law ever building broadly requires a bomb shelter and they have phenomenal civilian defence. But I assure you living in a city where for years rockets land is not fun but I do accept that from a PR perspective, building bomb shelters is a bad move, better to let civilians die as it looks better for people too stupid to understand the concept of civilian protection.
Now, lets move on to the famous blockade.... Hamas has said it will accept no ceasefire without a lifting of the blockaded by both Israel and Egypt. So how on earth ios attacking Israel going to remove a blockade enforced more stringently by Egypt? Orhow about the demand that Eygpt opens the boarder? Israel has control over that do they?! But hey, dont let little facts like the reality of the blockade count.
OK, onto settlements. Lets be clear. Israel, under Sharon, and with the use of the military, closed the settlements in Gaza bout 9 years ago. Moaning they are still there is nuts. THEY ARE NOT. Thats not up for debate. Its a simple fact. They remain in both the WB and around some parts of Jerusalem (one could argue part of Jerusalem is in the West Bank so may be the same thing on one level. So saying they are part of this is simply factually wrong. Want more proof? OK, Abbas himself, the only elected leader (Hamas voided elections and refused to re-run) has been strong in his condemnation, in the last week, of Hamas despite being in a semi coalition government with them. Smart chap is Abbas, he has a stronger economy, more freedom, better educaation, better everything beccuase he does not try to wipe out Isreal and represents his people. Hamas are in power by force, not democracy.
Next, Israel as a democracy. I have read things on here like Israeli Arabs don't have rights, don't have votes, are not allowed in certain roads etc. Interesting stuff. Utterly wrong. Again, I don;t care whaat has been written, I lived there. I employed Arabs, Jews, Christians, Citizens, Immigrants, Palestinians etc. Many lost their jobs because Hamas refused to let them into Israel which made coming to work a bit tough.
Israel is a long way from perfect but to intimate that somehow it can negotiate with Hamas when Hamas have stated the basic position requires promises Israel cannot give (like access to Eygpt!) is nuts.
Then we have the Strip being refered to as a concentration camp. I have been there, many times. It is not heaven on earth but actually, medical care, water and power for example (provided and paid for by Israel, even right now) are all reliable. In fact, it is easy to find report affter report that Hamas leaders have sent kids to Israel for medical treatment, supplied free and sent back. WOuld make a great hostage for evil Israel....
The PPalestinians in Gaza ahave a terrible deal, but the role of Egypt is utterly ignored because of the inconvenient truth. As are 12,000 missiles in 6 months, or the tiny fact that Abbas himself with a strong mandate was banned from Gazza by Hamas for being a traitor. Yet he has forged the very beginnings of a solution, tony but vital steps on both sides.
And to those who bang the drum of settlements.... I repeat... in Gaza there are NONE. Blockade - Hamas themselves have stated it needs to be lifted by Egypt... How on earth Israel is supposed to do this is a mystery to anyone.
SO while i respect we all have different views, perhaps a little understanding of the reality, may help to forge a more balanced discussion, but frankly, I doubt it.
It matters not a jot if someone is a civilian on either side, any death is obviously terrible but to point to the fact that Israel protects it population with shelters, warnings and Iron Dome as proof they are all evil is simply utterly flawed logic.
And perhaps one of the reasons Israel could not care less about public opinion is an opinion based on zero understanding is irrelevant to them and rightly so.
Couldnt agree more.The naivety of some on here is astounding.Let me first explain why I have a little understanding. I hold a degree in International Relations where I specialised in the ME. I have lived in Tel Aviv AND spent considerable time in the occupied territories. I once owned a company which employed predominantly Palestinians (programmers mainly, average earning were just over double the national average for Israel.
So,lets start with the comparisons the IRA - Utter rubbish. The IRA DID NOT focus on civilians, it did not chuck literally thousands of rockets every year into populated area. I don't just mean right now, I mean year on year on year. Israeli deaths are low in part because by law ever building broadly requires a bomb shelter and they have phenomenal civilian defence. But I assure you living in a city where for years rockets land is not fun but I do accept that from a PR perspective, building bomb shelters is a bad move, better to let civilians die as it looks better for people too stupid to understand the concept of civilian protection.
Now, lets move on to the famous blockade.... Hamas has said it will accept no ceasefire without a lifting of the blockaded by both Israel and Egypt. So how on earth ios attacking Israel going to remove a blockade enforced more stringently by Egypt? Orhow about the demand that Eygpt opens the boarder? Israel has control over that do they?! But hey, dont let little facts like the reality of the blockade count.
OK, onto settlements. Lets be clear. Israel, under Sharon, and with the use of the military, closed the settlements in Gaza bout 9 years ago. Moaning they are still there is nuts. THEY ARE NOT. Thats not up for debate. Its a simple fact. They remain in both the WB and around some parts of Jerusalem (one could argue part of Jerusalem is in the West Bank so may be the same thing on one level. So saying they are part of this is simply factually wrong. Want more proof? OK, Abbas himself, the only elected leader (Hamas voided elections and refused to re-run) has been strong in his condemnation, in the last week, of Hamas despite being in a semi coalition government with them. Smart chap is Abbas, he has a stronger economy, more freedom, better educaation, better everything beccuase he does not try to wipe out Isreal and represents his people. Hamas are in power by force, not democracy.
Next, Israel as a democracy. I have read things on here like Israeli Arabs don't have rights, don't have votes, are not allowed in certain roads etc. Interesting stuff. Utterly wrong. Again, I don;t care whaat has been written, I lived there. I employed Arabs, Jews, Christians, Citizens, Immigrants, Palestinians etc. Many lost their jobs because Hamas refused to let them into Israel which made coming to work a bit tough.
Israel is a long way from perfect but to intimate that somehow it can negotiate with Hamas when Hamas have stated the basic position requires promises Israel cannot give (like access to Eygpt!) is nuts.
Then we have the Strip being refered to as a concentration camp. I have been there, many times. It is not heaven on earth but actually, medical care, water and power for example (provided and paid for by Israel, even right now) are all reliable. In fact, it is easy to find report affter report that Hamas leaders have sent kids to Israel for medical treatment, supplied free and sent back. WOuld make a great hostage for evil Israel....
The PPalestinians in Gaza ahave a terrible deal, but the role of Egypt is utterly ignored because of the inconvenient truth. As are 12,000 missiles in 6 months, or the tiny fact that Abbas himself with a strong mandate was banned from Gazza by Hamas for being a traitor. Yet he has forged the very beginnings of a solution, tony but vital steps on both sides.
And to those who bang the drum of settlements.... I repeat... in Gaza there are NONE. Blockade - Hamas themselves have stated it needs to be lifted by Egypt... How on earth Israel is supposed to do this is a mystery to anyone.
SO while i respect we all have different views, perhaps a little understanding of the reality, may help to forge a more balanced discussion, but frankly, I doubt it.
It matters not a jot if someone is a civilian on either side, any death is obviously terrible but to point to the fact that Israel protects it population with shelters, warnings and Iron Dome as proof they are all evil is simply utterly flawed logic.
And perhaps one of the reasons Israel could not care less about public opinion is an opinion based on zero understanding is irrelevant to them and rightly so.
With regards your paragraph about Israel treating Palestinian kids,I do apologise for posting another clip but this has always stuck in my mind.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22XEkJY62VA
Pappa Lurve
The Settlements removed from the Gaza Strip were relocated to the West Bank. Only because they would be easier to defend there. By the way there are plenty of maps which show how the Settlements in the WB have grown. Btw nobody has been banging on about settlements in Gaza,
Israel charges the Palestinians for water and electricity. They aren't supplied free of charge.
And here are the views of another Jewish person who knows Israel quite well.
http://www.annainthemiddleeast.com/
The Settlements removed from the Gaza Strip were relocated to the West Bank. Only because they would be easier to defend there. By the way there are plenty of maps which show how the Settlements in the WB have grown. Btw nobody has been banging on about settlements in Gaza,
Israel charges the Palestinians for water and electricity. They aren't supplied free of charge.
And here are the views of another Jewish person who knows Israel quite well.
http://www.annainthemiddleeast.com/
Countdown said:
supersingle said:
Countdown said:
enioldjoe said:
Have you ever considered what would happen if Hamas had Israel's firepower ( or even part of it ) and Israel only had what they have. Answer that and the issue you mention is addressed.
I think if Hamas had more firepower then Israel would be much more inclined to come to the negotiating table. As things stand Israel is doing pretty much what it wants, in both Gaza and the West Bank.When protesters shout 'Free Palestine - From The River To The Sea' they are quoting Hamas. They are calling for the destruction of Israel and the Jews.
Quotes re-embeded for clarity.
Countdown said:
Pappa Lurve
The Settlements removed from the Gaza Strip were relocated to the West Bank. Only because they would be easier to defend there. By the way there are plenty of maps which show how the Settlements in the WB have grown. Btw nobody has been banging on about settlements in Gaza,
Israel charges the Palestinians for water and electricity. They aren't supplied free of charge.
And here are the views of another Jewish person who knows Israel quite well.
http://www.annainthemiddleeast.com/
Countdown - you state ANOTHER JEWISH PERSON. That means clearly according to you I am Jewish. Kindly explain to me where you glean this from and what the relevance is? It also rather leads to the view you think you understand the debate internally to the Jewish community, as distinct from the Israeli one, perhaps you do. Perhaps not. The Settlements removed from the Gaza Strip were relocated to the West Bank. Only because they would be easier to defend there. By the way there are plenty of maps which show how the Settlements in the WB have grown. Btw nobody has been banging on about settlements in Gaza,
Israel charges the Palestinians for water and electricity. They aren't supplied free of charge.
And here are the views of another Jewish person who knows Israel quite well.
http://www.annainthemiddleeast.com/
Then please comment on the Egypt issue.
Regarding the settlements being easier to defend - I assume you are experienced in military matters and understand the exact strategic situation on the ground at the time? If not, perhaps you could evidence this.
Someone mentioned about roads in WB - I know there are restricted roads there. I stated Israel. I neither like, agree with or condone those roads which is neither here nor there, considering they are not in the country I mentioned. And as a response to all the other points I made....um... anything?!
IRA comparisons? Civil Defence? Non-elections? WB having a far better situation? Thousands of missiles a year, every year, for years. Hamas leaders kids being treated in Israel? I guess not relevant factors.
And Israel does indeed charge for utilities sort of. I assume you understand how those payments are financed, who is paid and who writes the cheques? But I accept that statement was inaccurate. Used to be the case, changed a little now as has the contributions Israel directly makes. Please though, feel free to discuss in more depth the economics of the OC. It's rather an interesting subject.
Edited by Pappa Lurve on Friday 25th July 01:30
2013BRM said:
The media is very anti Israel and, as pappa lurve pointed out a little incorrect, what people type here is down to that not anti semitism
Nice try.So if you know better then which bits have the media got wrong. Have the Israelis not killed many hundreds of Gazans in a few weeks?
2013BRM said:
The media is very anti Israel and, as pappa lurve pointed out a little incorrect, what people type here is down to that not anti semitism
the basic difference between the sides is that one actually is doing all it can to defend it's public, the other is using them as cannon fodder.you can jump up and down all you like, but the simple fact remains that without Hamas, it's highly likely a deal would have been done by now.
Abbas is not perfect, but realises this and is working on it, all be it hamstrung by Hamas nutters.
allnighter said:
Good post and well said S8GRN. Sadly, from my perspective when I see pictures of dead children, hospitals being bombed, and families being wiped out, I do not view Israel as a beacon of morality or democracy. There is no other people on this earth that understand what it's like to be persecuted better than Jews. Like you said 6 million Jews died for nothing and the Israeli government is doing nothing positive or moral in memory of the 6M dead and in memory of those who fought fascism and paid with their lives.
The fact that those 6million Jews died is why Israel is necessary. As many Jews realised that the best guarantee of security is not reliance on the forbearance of European or Arab states but having their own state with its own army.The treatment of Jews in those Arab states differed little from their treatment by the Polish et al in Europe. Where you have poor, uneducated, societies the presence of a Jewish minority to be a scapegoat was always welcome.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff