Discussion
Countdown said:
Would that be the law that also says Settlement building is illegal? 
It may surprise you, but I have some sympathy with the Palestinians on this. Give up violence and then attack this peacefully - simplistic, and will take a lot of time but will ultimately yield results in the world court.Mermaid said:
It may surprise you, but I have some sympathy with the Palestinians on this. Give up violence and then attack this peacefully - simplistic, and will take a lot of time but will ultimately yield results in the world court.
Abbass had a reasonably tight control on the violence. Pretty much every precondition the israelis placed on him he complied with. the one thing they asked for was a freeze on the settlement building. This would have given him something to show the Palestinians that progress was achievable. That a viable two State solution was achievable. Guess what the Israelis did?Every single time the US managed to get the israelis and the Palestinians to the table the Israelis would announce a fresh round of settlement building, knowing full well that this would weaken Abbass further.
I've asked grum this a couple of times - maybe you could answer as he seems incapable; do you think the Usraelis under Netanyahu have ever seriously been interested in peace (a genuine peace trather than the unconditional surrender which Grum thinks would be a reasonable prerequisite to peace talks) ?
Countdown said:
Grumfutock said:
But repeating that Israel is a brutal terrorist state is OK?
Absolutely. Unlike you I don't think I've dispalyed double standards. Now, do you condemn Israel's killing of innocent Palestinian civilians, or continue to excuse it with mealy-mouthed weasel words?Countdown said:
Grumfutock said:
You appear to use the same double standard system of logic as Hamas, are you a member?
Nope. As I've said repeatedly I condemn Hamas as well. Now, any chance of you condemning any of Israel's actions? Any at all? Just one....? Countdown said:
Grumfutock said:
And one small point, Hamas haven't recognised Israel's right to exist now have they? More typical propaganda and spin. Yes the PLO have ALLEGEDLY changed their charter, nobody really knows for sure, but Hamas have not. Seeing as how Hamas run half of the territory I would put it to you that Israel is very much still denied it's right to exist!
Of course it's "alleged" - unless they personally prove it to you and every other it's always going to be "alleged" i think. because that's a handy way of avoiding having to enter serious peace discussions. To clarify for your benefit, Fatah have recognized Israel's right to exist. They recognised it as far back as 1988. I get the impression that it's a handy little slur, an easy accusation to be used to further the pretence that it's "the Palestinians that don't want peace" and Israel is being forced to demolish homes, evict Palestinians and annexe land.The Hamas charter is a whole different thing. They have not changed their charter one bit and continue to make war. So all in all then I think what I wrote in your quote remains extant!
Edited by Grumfutock on Saturday 22 November 19:28
Countdown said:
Grumfutock said:
What part of equal rights for those that obey the law didn't you understand?
Would that be the law that also says Settlement building is illegal? "Druze Israeli refusniks".
Now please read it, digest it and for the love of Allah get it in your head!
Grum, you really need to start answering questions from time to time rather than follow up with a lazy comment. Deflection is lazy and disrespectful.
Also I do agree that the Israelis don't want peace any more than Hamas or other groups that thrive on violence do. It suits the Israelis perfectly to have a 'constant war' going on. Kind of like what people accuse the USA of by having a 'constant war in terror' - it gives the government the right to justify actions that would otherwise rightly be condemned. How some people can't see this is beyond me.
Also I do agree that the Israelis don't want peace any more than Hamas or other groups that thrive on violence do. It suits the Israelis perfectly to have a 'constant war' going on. Kind of like what people accuse the USA of by having a 'constant war in terror' - it gives the government the right to justify actions that would otherwise rightly be condemned. How some people can't see this is beyond me.
Grumfutock said:
And how many times do I have to say this. I do condemn it but I blame Hamas for launching rockets from civilians areas. I do not blame Israel for firing back. Please read and digest this because it is getting really boring repeating it.
And yet again weasel words. You do not blame Israel. Even though the cause of the current conflict is Israel's settlement building.Grumfutock said:
Now you say you condemn Hamas but I don't see any mention of condemnation when they commit a brutal murder and yet you leap all over any and all Israeli actions, so sorry I don't believe you.
Firstly it's b
ks that I've leapt over "all israeli actions". You may not be aware (or have chosen to ignore) various Palestinians being killed over the last few months by Israeli police and military. I haven't jumped up to condemn them because, after a while, it becomes pointless. I condemned Hamas numerous times in this thread and other threads but, if you "choose" not to believe it, well frankly I couldnt give a flying fk.Grumfutock said:
No need to personally prove it to me. Normal action would be for the PLO to produce the charter, in it's amended form. However that would be the action of a democratic and sensible group, I find brutal terrorist despot regimes somewhat different hence the word ALLEGED! They claim to have done it but refuse to prove it. They referred to this "new" charter in 1999 but didn't make any mention of the amendment so a little prove would be nice or should the UN and the world just take their word for it?
And yet again...I get the impression that unless it's personally proven to you, you are going to refuse to believe it and use it to excuse israeli actions. To reiterate the PLO recognised Israel in 1988, this was formally reiterated in 1998, Clinton accepted it, Blair accepted it, and the Israeli Govt accepted it. If they accept it Im not sure why you want to pretend they haven't.With regards to hamas; firstly if Israel wanted to make peace they could do so quite easily with Fatah. Just as they have done with Egypt, and Jordan. Ti suggest that hamas is the obstruction is just an excuse. If hamas were to surrender unconditionally no doubt islamic Jihad would need to recognise israel's inalienable right to exist, then Hezbollah, then ISIS, then the Tooting Liberation Front, until finally, the whole of the West bank is covered in israeli settlements, checkpoints, and roads. And then well, the palestinians are just going to have to accept the "facts on the ground".
Countdown said:
Grumfutock said:
And how many times do I have to say this. I do condemn it but I blame Hamas for launching rockets from civilians areas. I do not blame Israel for firing back. Please read and digest this because it is getting really boring repeating it.
And yet again weasel words. You do not blame Israel. Even though the cause of the current conflict is Israel's settlement building.Countdown said:
Grumfutock said:
Now you say you condemn Hamas but I don't see any mention of condemnation when they commit a brutal murder and yet you leap all over any and all Israeli actions, so sorry I don't believe you.
Firstly it's bks that I've leapt over "all israeli actions". You may not be aware (or have chosen to ignore) various Palestinians being killed over the last few months by Israeli police and military. I haven't jumped up to condemn them because, after a while, it becomes pointless. I condemned Hamas numerous times in this thread and other threads but, if you "choose" not to believe it, well frankly I couldnt give a flying fk. Countdown said:
Grumfutock said:
No need to personally prove it to me. Normal action would be for the PLO to produce the charter, in it's amended form. However that would be the action of a democratic and sensible group, I find brutal terrorist despot regimes somewhat different hence the word ALLEGED! They claim to have done it but refuse to prove it. They referred to this "new" charter in 1999 but didn't make any mention of the amendment so a little prove would be nice or should the UN and the world just take their word for it?
And yet again...I get the impression that unless it's personally proven to you, you are going to refuse to believe it and use it to excuse israeli actions. To reiterate the PLO recognised Israel in 1988, this was formally reiterated in 1998, Clinton accepted it, Blair accepted it, and the Israeli Govt accepted it. If they accept it Im not sure why you want to pretend they haven't.A bit like Iran not explaining why they want to increase production 20 times over, why they are carrying out test explosions and refuses to allow inspectors in but wants us to believe they aren't building nukes! Yes you are right, we should just believe them shouldn't we!
Grumfutock said:
What part of equal rights for those that obey the law didn't you understand?
Please clarify because that in itself would appear to be a really straight forward statement but you seem to be struggling with it.
We're talking about equal rights under the law, that Jewish refuseniks and Druze refuseniks receive the same punishment as citizens of the same state. What part of that goes over your head? Please clarify because that in itself would appear to be a really straight forward statement but you seem to be struggling with it.
Grumfutock said:
no I do not blame Israel,
Yep we know. All the blame is on one side as far as you're concerned. yet you jump up and down like kangaroo on speed if others fail to condemn Palestinian terror attacks loudly enough for your satisfaction.Grumfutock said:
I blame Hamas for using civilians as shields.
Not the settlement building then? Or the annexation of palestinian farmland? Or the "Settler-only" roads that criss-cross the west bank? Or the fact that Netanyahu has stated publicly that the Palestinians won't have there own State? You genuinely believe that none of this is the reason the conflict is continuing?Grumfutock said:
I don't recall seeing anything from you about the 5 murders this week? How strange, I must of missed that! Fairly sure I didn't "ignore it" but perhaps you can provide a link to your post condemning it?
Countdown said:
I couldn't give a flying fk.
k.Grumfutock said:
My reply clearly states "No need to personally prove it to me". It also clearly states "Normal action would be for the PLO to produce the charter, in it's amended form". Why are you struggling? Hamas and the PLO should just produce the charter for the world to see. Why is that so hard to do? It is fairly easy I would suggest unless they have something to hide, which I am sure they don't!
Can I ask you a question? i don't think you're a simpleton but what is it you're exactly asking them to produce? Would it be a 70-year old document with the words "israel has no right to exist" tipp-ex'd out? I have no idea what form the charter takes. I assume it's an MS Word document. But what exactly is it that you want to see? 
Regardless, given that even the peace loving Netanyahu and Sharon accepted that Fatah have recognised Israel Im not sure why you don't. is it because suggesting it is a helpful little fig-leaf whilst being an apologist?
TheRealFingers99 said:
Grumfutock said:
What part of equal rights for those that obey the law didn't you understand?
Please clarify because that in itself would appear to be a really straight forward statement but you seem to be struggling with it.
We're talking about equal rights under the law, that Jewish refuseniks and Druze refuseniks receive the same punishment as citizens of the same state. What part of that goes over your head? Please clarify because that in itself would appear to be a really straight forward statement but you seem to be struggling with it.
Yes, equal rights for those that live within the law!!!!!
And I get accused of not answering questions! FFS!
Mermaid said:
"Bury me standing etc heroics"
Rather primitive "thinking", if at all you can call it that. Get smart, then you may have a chance to get even ( and you will not need to at that stage).
I don't see how it's primitive. The point is that the situation appears hopeless: there is no chance to get even. You may as well take some of the oppressors with you.Rather primitive "thinking", if at all you can call it that. Get smart, then you may have a chance to get even ( and you will not need to at that stage).
Countdown said:
Can I ask you a question? i don't think you're a simpleton but what is it you're exactly asking them to produce? Would it be a 70-year old document with the words "israel has no right to exist" tipp-ex'd out? I have no idea what form the charter takes. I assume it's an MS Word document. But what exactly is it that you want to see?
Regardless, given that even the peace loving Netanyahu and Sharon accepted that Fatah have recognised Israel Im not sure why you don't. is it because suggesting it is a helpful little fig-leaf whilst being an apologist?
"What is it you're exactly asking them to produce?" Produce the Charter or is it just something they have in their heads? Regardless, given that even the peace loving Netanyahu and Sharon accepted that Fatah have recognised Israel Im not sure why you don't. is it because suggesting it is a helpful little fig-leaf whilst being an apologist?
It must be written down so simply publish it, in its entirety, and then they can be judged on it. No goal post moving or any other stuff. Their actions can be judged against their own words. No different than the US bill of rights or our own laws and constitution.
As an aside: I notice the request to back up you alleged condemnation of this weeks murders with a link, you know, the one that you must of written!!! Ah the old "I couldn't give a flying f
k". Isn't it funny that you accuse me of something and when I challenge you on exactly the same point that you answer it with those words.Why am I not surprised!
Edited by Grumfutock on Saturday 22 November 20:35
TheRealFingers99 said:
Mermaid said:
"Bury me standing etc heroics"
Rather primitive "thinking", if at all you can call it that. Get smart, then you may have a chance to get even ( and you will not need to at that stage).
I don't see how it's primitive. The point is that the situation appears hopeless: there is no chance to get even. You may as well take some of the oppressors with you.Rather primitive "thinking", if at all you can call it that. Get smart, then you may have a chance to get even ( and you will not need to at that stage).
king tactical genius!Grumfutock said:
And once again I will state it for you because you seem to be terminally incapable of reading my answer!
Yes, equal rights for those that live within the law!!!!!
And I get accused of not answering questions! FFS!
So, your wonderful Israeli democracy guarantees equal treatment for those citizens who obey the law, but unequal treatment, depending on race, for those who break it? If so, surely it's a racist state? Yes, equal rights for those that live within the law!!!!!
And I get accused of not answering questions! FFS!
This isn't a trick question -- I'm not talking about those religious Orthodox Jews who are exempted (by law) from military service, but ordinary Jewish Israelis, ordinary Arab Israelis.
Grumfutock said:
TheRealFingers99 said:
Mermaid said:
"Bury me standing etc heroics"
Rather primitive "thinking", if at all you can call it that. Get smart, then you may have a chance to get even ( and you will not need to at that stage).
I don't see how it's primitive. The point is that the situation appears hopeless: there is no chance to get even. You may as well take some of the oppressors with you.Rather primitive "thinking", if at all you can call it that. Get smart, then you may have a chance to get even ( and you will not need to at that stage).
king tactical genius!Now, answer the question!
Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Saturday 22 November 21:29
Grumfutock said:
Yes, equal rights for those that live within the law!!!!!
Can you not see how ridiculous that sounds? Really?Forget about Israel for a minute (as I fear that you will argue the toss and say that there aren't many black people in Israel or some other totally irrelevant point to deflect the discussion point.)
A country has 2 types of punishment for speeding offences. You get the "White" penalty which is 3 points on a license if you do 40 mph in a 30. However you also get the "Black" penalty for which you get 9 points for doing 40 mph in a 30.
(replace speeding with another crime or points with another form of punishment etc...)
Would you classify this country's legal system as having "equal rights?" - according to your definition you would. (not holding my breath for an answer btw)
This just proves that your main tact of discussion is just "throwing mud at a wall and seeing what sticks." You just over-compensate and just write something which you think allows you to win your argument via the "path of least resistance" even though you start digging yourself a hole due to your inconsistencies in your line of reasoning. It's embarrassing.
Countdown said:
Mermaid said:
It may surprise you, but I have some sympathy with the Palestinians on this. Give up violence and then attack this peacefully - simplistic, and will take a lot of time but will ultimately yield results in the world court.
Abbass had a reasonably tight control on the violence. Pretty much every precondition the israelis placed on him he complied with. the one thing they asked for was a freeze on the settlement building. This would have given him something to show the Palestinians that progress was achievable. That a viable two State solution was achievable. Guess what the Israelis did?Every single time the US managed to get the israelis and the Palestinians to the table the Israelis would announce a fresh round of settlement building, knowing full well that this would weaken Abbass further.
I've asked grum this a couple of times - maybe you could answer as he seems incapable; do you think the Usraelis under Netanyahu have ever seriously been interested in peace (a genuine peace trather than the unconditional surrender which Grum thinks would be a reasonable prerequisite to peace talks) ?
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