Discussion
SR7492 said:
Deliberate murder but only charged with manslaughter; great accountability (though I'm not surprised)
Here is the actual footage of the killings:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaibEqx2m_k
Why on earth would you post footage of a killing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You sick fHere is the actual footage of the killings:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaibEqx2m_k
k.TheRealFingers99 said:
I've answered your question. Yes, you're right about the graves. But the rest of the report provides context, don't you think?
I suggest, Julie dear, that you take a good dose of laxative -- might free your mind up a little, as well!
Talk about anal!
Ah by context do you mean all of it or just the little bit you included to suit your own ends? As I said there was another incident on an Israeli flag if you wanted context!I suggest, Julie dear, that you take a good dose of laxative -- might free your mind up a little, as well!
Talk about anal!
Once again you write half truths but that is your way isn't it.
TheRealFingers99 said:
Morris actually changed his interpretation of the facts, but has never denied the facts themselves (it would be difficult). There are those who pointed out that he desperately wanted a professorship at an Israeli university at the time, and may have had what happened to Pappe in the back of his mind. While it doesn't go at him quite that hard, the article I cite in Haaretz is apposite.
Finckelstein seems to me to be a sort of Court Jester of the New Historians. Sometimes his remarks strike home. Personally I find him mainly irritating.
Pappe, as a Marxist of sorts, starts from the viewpoint that history is ideologically driven. It's not a new idea. You can find it in the writings of very many leftist historians.
If right wing commentators choose to see this as a desire to bend facts to suit an idea, so be it. Pappe describes all this rather well in the BBC Hard Talk interview. (It's on You Tube somewhere -- poor quality, but the sound is OK.) I know of only one "lie" that Pappe perpetrates -- a quotation from the "old man" which doesn't appear in the place cited. (Of no real import -- you could find plenty of equivalent quotes from Ben-Gurion.)
But the contrary view, that the historian is an objective seeker for truth is obviously nuts. I mean, even your choice of an area of study is ideologically driven!
These discussions actually mirror closely those which took place 20 or 30 years earlier among Karl Popper (not a leftist!) and his circle (perhaps most notably his nemeses, Paul Feyerabend and Imre Lakatos). But scientific method, even Popper would agree, is not the assemblage of a collection of scientific results ("facts") into a theory which can be tested, but the creation of a theory which can be tested (sooner or later) against facts (Feyerabend and the scientific community point out that it's a far more ad hoc process than Popper ever saw it). The theory, itself, is an ideological construct of sorts.
Finckelstein seems to me to be a sort of Court Jester of the New Historians. Sometimes his remarks strike home. Personally I find him mainly irritating.
Pappe, as a Marxist of sorts, starts from the viewpoint that history is ideologically driven. It's not a new idea. You can find it in the writings of very many leftist historians.
If right wing commentators choose to see this as a desire to bend facts to suit an idea, so be it. Pappe describes all this rather well in the BBC Hard Talk interview. (It's on You Tube somewhere -- poor quality, but the sound is OK.) I know of only one "lie" that Pappe perpetrates -- a quotation from the "old man" which doesn't appear in the place cited. (Of no real import -- you could find plenty of equivalent quotes from Ben-Gurion.)
But the contrary view, that the historian is an objective seeker for truth is obviously nuts. I mean, even your choice of an area of study is ideologically driven!
These discussions actually mirror closely those which took place 20 or 30 years earlier among Karl Popper (not a leftist!) and his circle (perhaps most notably his nemeses, Paul Feyerabend and Imre Lakatos). But scientific method, even Popper would agree, is not the assemblage of a collection of scientific results ("facts") into a theory which can be tested, but the creation of a theory which can be tested (sooner or later) against facts (Feyerabend and the scientific community point out that it's a far more ad hoc process than Popper ever saw it). The theory, itself, is an ideological construct of sorts.
Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Monday 24th November 16:02
pappe lied,end of,he manipulated information ,admitted he hadnt seen some of the documents he supposedly researched.His work has been proved to contain a lot of garbage.
He turned against the israeli government who he had represented at numerous debates I believe when they insisted he go to lebanon during the war,he took offence at this and turned .
pappe claims he was forced out for his beliefs,but he was at haifa uni until 2007 ,long after his works had been published and there rumours of some other personal stuff at the time (I doubt you will find it on wiki) so I am sceptical as to his leaving for the reasons he claimed.
Grumfutock said:
SR7492 said:
Deliberate murder but only charged with manslaughter; great accountability (though I'm not surprised)
Here is the actual footage of the killings:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaibEqx2m_k
Why on earth would you post footage of a killing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You sick fHere is the actual footage of the killings:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaibEqx2m_k
k.head - I didn't ask you to click the link.I posted it so that everyone who is reading this thread can judge the for themselves the random killings of innocent Palestinians civilians by the Israelis. But I'm sure, somehow, you are going to say the kids who were killed had a RPG in their back pocket and were a immediate threat.
Grumfutock said:
TheRealFingers99 said:
I've answered your question. Yes, you're right about the graves. But the rest of the report provides context, don't you think?
I suggest, Julie dear, that you take a good dose of laxative -- might free your mind up a little, as well!
Talk about anal!
Ah by context do you mean all of it or just the little bit you included to suit your own ends? As I said there was another incident on an Israeli flag if you wanted context!I suggest, Julie dear, that you take a good dose of laxative -- might free your mind up a little, as well!
Talk about anal!
Once again you write half truths but that is your way isn't it.
Frankly, I don't consider that important. Only a rabid nationalist would, I think. It's just a flag, and has faff all to do with the issue!
The context I consider revealing is that of the guy who says: “even if children did this as a prank, we are taking this incident very seriously".
But if that's the worse case of Arab/Druze or Muslim/Druze or Christian/Druze sentiment you can come up with (to counter Israeli Jewish/Israeli Druze actuality) you really must try harder, Julie.
franki68 said:
pappe lied,end of,he manipulated information ,admitted he hadnt seen some of the documents he supposedly researched.His work has been proved to contain a lot of garbage.
He turned against the israeli government who he had represented at numerous debates I believe when they insisted he go to lebanon during the war,he took offence at this and turned .
pappe claims he was forced out for his beliefs,but he was at haifa uni until 2007 ,long after his works had been published and there rumours of some other personal stuff at the time (I doubt you will find it on wiki) so I am sceptical as to his leaving for the reasons he claimed.
Surely if as a Israeli citizen he'd refused to take up a posting as part of his military service (and hence fled the country) he'd not be able to return without ending up in prison? Yet he still spends a good part of the year in Israel.
You'd be stunned how often historians quote the work of others (often at one, or two, steps removed!) without examining the sources directly. Scientists often do the equivalent. It's the way the industry is. Hopefully when everything is properly digitised it'll start dying out.
The Idea of Israel and My Promised Land – review by Avi Shlaim of Ilan Pappe and Ari Shavit's latest books may be useful as a quick intro for the perplexed.
Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Monday 24th November 17:21
TheRealFingers99 said:
Grumfutock said:
TheRealFingers99 said:
I've answered your question. Yes, you're right about the graves. But the rest of the report provides context, don't you think?
I suggest, Julie dear, that you take a good dose of laxative -- might free your mind up a little, as well!
Talk about anal!
Ah by context do you mean all of it or just the little bit you included to suit your own ends? As I said there was another incident on an Israeli flag if you wanted context!I suggest, Julie dear, that you take a good dose of laxative -- might free your mind up a little, as well!
Talk about anal!
Once again you write half truths but that is your way isn't it.
Frankly, I don't consider that important. Only a rabid nationalist would, I think. It's just a flag, and has faff all to do with the issue!
The context I consider revealing is that of the guy who says: “even if children did this as a prank, we are taking this incident very seriously".
But if that's the worse case of Arab/Druze or Muslim/Druze or Christian/Druze sentiment you can come up with (to counter Israeli Jewish/Israeli Druze actuality) you really must try harder, Julie.
SR7492 said:
Get a grip dhead - I didn't ask you to click the link.
I posted it so that everyone who is reading this thread can judge the for themselves the random killings of innocent Palestinians civilians by the Israelis. But I'm sure, somehow, you are going to say the kids who were killed had a RPG in their back pocket and were a immediate threat.
Why would I claim that, it was me that highlighted the news item you dullard!!!head - I didn't ask you to click the link.I posted it so that everyone who is reading this thread can judge the for themselves the random killings of innocent Palestinians civilians by the Israelis. But I'm sure, somehow, you are going to say the kids who were killed had a RPG in their back pocket and were a immediate threat.
So it is fine to post link to death is it, and some how you are excused because you didn't ask me to click on it. Jog on!
Grumfutock said:
No I mean the part of the context that you so completely left out. You wanted the context. You included it to suit your own argument. You choose to cherry pick which part you used as context. I put in the WHOLE context!
You posted a link to an article in an obscure Israeli newspaper. The link is there. There's no need for me to repost it. Big deal. You also posted a link to a link with a video of a kid being killed (and then accused someone else of being a sick f
k for posting the same link!)Folk are free to follow the link or not.
Or does that not compute in the wonderful world of Julie?
I'll argue my case, not yours (although anyone with an ounce of nous could argue it better), thank you very much!
And what the hell does the Israeli flag have to do with it? Please explain?
Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Monday 24th November 18:09
Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Monday 24th November 18:46
Grumfutock said:
Why would I claim that, it was me that highlighted the news item you dullard!!!
Well, duller than dullard, your post included the link. It's the same link. Grumfutock said:
So it is fine to post link to death is it, and some how you are excused because you didn't ask me to click on it. Jog on!
Is that really any different to what you did? The inference in the BBC link is that the video was posted by an NGO. One could presume (maybe mistakenly, who knows?) that they posted the video to enable people to see the reality and to put pressure on the Israelis to take action?
TheRealFingers99 said:
You posted a link to an article in an obscure Israeli newspaper. The link is there. There's no need for me to repost it.
And yet, habibi, you reposted the bit that suited your argument. Am I wrong?????? Please tell.TheRealFingers99 said:
Big deal. You also posted a link to a link with a video of a kid being killed (and then accused someone else of being a sick fk for posting the same link!)
Really??? My link was the BBC, that's the BBC , it also had links to about 1,000s other stories, sport, technology etc. Should I of check every one to make you happy??? Once again, please tell.k for posting the same link!)TheRealFingers99 said:
Folk are free to follow the link or not.
Or does that not compute in the wonderful world of Julie?
Try posting a link to one of the ISIS hostage killings and see how far you get habibi. Or perhaps you think that would be ok, after all it is just a killing and nobody would "folk are free to follow the link or not." Would that be ok? Please tell.Or does that not compute in the wonderful world of Julie?
TheRealFingers99 said:
I'll argue my case, not yours (although anyone with an ounce of nous could argue it better), thank you very much!
And yet you have been trying, and failing, since August, have you not? Please tell.TheRealFingers99 said:
And what the hell does the Israeli flag have to do with it? Please explain?
Complete CONTEXT oh wise one!!! Perhaps you think differently habibi? Please tell.TheRealFingers99 said:
Grumfutock said:
Why would I claim that, it was me that highlighted the news item you dullard!!!
Well, duller than dullard, your post included the link. It's the same link. Are you special needs or are you just vainly trying to wind me up by playing stupid?
Grumfutock said:
TheRealFingers99 said:
You posted a link to an article in an obscure Israeli newspaper. The link is there. There's no need for me to repost it.
And yet, habibi, you reposted the bit that suited your argument. Am I wrong?????? Please tell.Grumfutock said:
TheRealFingers99 said:
Big deal. You also posted a link to a link with a video of a kid being killed (and then accused someone else of being a sick fk for posting the same link!)
Really??? My link was the BBC, that's the BBC , it also had links to about 1,000s other stories, sport, technology etc. Should I of check every one to make you happy??? Once again, please tell.k for posting the same link!)From the link you posted:
""All indications show the killing was deliberate and premeditated. It was not random fire," Siam Nuwara told Reuters news agency. "A manslaughter charge is unacceptable."
At the time, Palestinian leaders accused Israeli forces of the "execution" of the teenagers after CCTV footage of the protest was released by a human rights group.
Defence for Children International (DCI) said the footage proved Nuwara and Abu Thahr had posed no threat to the Israeli troops and been killed unlawfully. Under the Israeli military's rules of engagement, troops can use live ammunition only if they feel their lives are in danger."
The bit I've put in bold is a link to the footage of the murder on the original. It's the same footage.
Grumfutock said:
TheRealFingers99 said:
Folk are free to follow the link or not.
Or does that not compute in the wonderful world of Julie?
Try posting a link to one of the ISIS hostage killings and see how far you get habibi. Or perhaps you think that would be ok, after all it is just a killing and nobody would "folk are free to follow the link or not." Would that be ok? Please tell. Or does that not compute in the wonderful world of Julie?
TheRealFingers99 said:
Grumfutock said:
I'll argue my case, not yours (although anyone with an ounce of nous could argue it better), thank you very much!
And yet you have been trying, and failing, since August, have you not? Please tell.TheRealFingers99 said:
Grumfutock said:
And what the hell does the Israeli flag have to do with it? Please explain?
Complete CONTEXT oh wise one!!! Perhaps you think differently habibi? Please tell.One might say that Hamas offer parity -- if they see someone in an Israeli uniform, they try to kill them, regardless of their ethnic background or religion.
Grumfutock said:
TheRealFingers99 said:
Try posting a link to one of the ISIS hostage killings and see how far you get habibi. Or perhaps you think that would be ok, after all it is just a killing and nobody would "folk are free to follow the link or not." Would that be ok? Please tell.
I'm not playing this game. Are you alleging that Israel and ISIS are somehow equivalent? Again, you posted the link -- it was in your link, not in some mysterious place on the BBC site in a sidebar labelled "beware the leopard" but in the body of the very article you linked to.I posted a link to the story that the culprit was facing prosecution for the killing. That's the NEWS STORY!!!!!! GET IT???? THE NEWS STORY HABIBI!!!!!!
Keep dancing to the 'books' tune my camel toed friend. Keep sucking up the propaganda of the religion of peace. Keep looking for the 'evidence' of evil crusades. One day, god willing soon, you will get your virgins. as-salaam 'alaykum habibi.
Grumfutock said:
And again you try to misrepresent my words.
Hardly. I just point out that, despite all your bluster, both you and SR7492 link to identical footage. That you failed to (duh!) comprehend what the link actually was is no-one else's fault but yours.
Mossad will not be amused, Julie. Not one little bit.
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