Best place to start in search for 'classic' 911

[uktrailmonster]

Lungauer said:

I want a lightness of touch and delicacy that I feel may be missing from the modern 911

Old 911s are actually anything but that! Controls are rather heavy and nowhere near as user-friendly as a modern Porsche. To be fair they feel much better once up to speed out on the open road, but the newer cars are far far easier to drive fast. Some would say that is the appeal of an older classic 911, but it's certainly not for everyone. You need to try driving a few good examples before swapping the GTS!

[BobToc]

Ha! This is very true, as someone who's young enough to have only ever driven cars with power steering, the absence took a bit of getting used to. I love my AC though, everything feels very mechanical but I guess that's in the eye of the beholder.

[SEE YA]

Lungauer said:

SEE YA said:

Do you not fancy a Turbo then?



To be honest I've always steered clear of turbos, other than the daily diesel. Not sure why, suppose it's that 'normally aspirated' thing, but I am beginning to come round to the idea. Probably too late now!

I think the current market, has made certain models out of the reach of people.

Due to the values being so high now. When a few years ago, more people could afford one myself included.

If I was looking now at 930 it would be out of my reach.

Edited by SEE YA on Monday 21st July 19:52

[N24]

uktrailmonster said:

Lungauer said:

I want a lightness of touch and delicacy that I feel may be missing from the modern 911

Old 911s are actually anything but that! Controls are rather heavy and nowhere near as user-friendly as a modern Porsche. To be fair they feel much better once up to speed out on the open road, but the newer cars are far far easier to drive fast. Some would say that is the appeal of an older classic 911, but it's certainly not for everyone. You need to try driving a few good examples before swapping the GTS!

Yep - very much this! A 997 is a breeze to drive compared to a 964 or 993!

[IMI A]

uktrailmonster said:

Lungauer said:

I want a lightness of touch and delicacy that I feel may be missing from the modern 911

Old 911s are actually anything but that! Controls are rather heavy and nowhere near as user-friendly as a modern Porsche. To be fair they feel much better once up to speed out on the open road, but the newer cars are far far easier to drive fast. Some would say that is the appeal of an older classic 911, but it's certainly not for everyone. You need to try driving a few good examples before swapping the GTS!

Yes not for everyone but if I had to pick one car for the rest of my days (even as a dd) I would pick an air-cooled car (my 3.2C would fit the bill for me but any of them i.e. 993 or 964 would). Any 997 feels over light in the steering and manual gearbox afterwards. I once had a friends 72 RS for a few hours and on my way back in my 997 it felt like I could be driving any eurobox saloon. I find the ride in PASM equipped 997s too soft too. In the OPs shoes for his budget he'd get an amazing air cooled car. If he waits a few years they may be out of reach as good cars are becoming harder to source whether you're looking for a SC, 3.2C, 964 or 993. Took me 3 years to find a car I was happy with and its by no means what I would call perfect but the fact its never been restored and is completely rust free was an attraction for me. There's a gorgeous blue 3.2C just come up for sale at JZM. In the OP's shoes subject to him enjoying the way an earlier car drives I'd try and find a way to buy that and also keep the 997. Honestly do not understand how JZM's cognac 3.2C with 70k miles sold for £30k not long ago and now this blue car is a touch below £40k. Has the market really moved that far in month? Prices just seem all over the place even from the same vendors in some cases. A pre 89 Turbo is a good shout too but very difficult to drive quickly unless you can peddle. A good compromise in my view if it has to be one car and fits the classic appreciating criteria although not water-cooled is a 996 GT3. Again with the OP's budget he'd get one of the best GT3s out there.

edited to say I'm very surprised how rapid my 3.2C is when on it.

Edited by IMI A on Tuesday 22 July 03:42

[bigunit00]

a couple of nice 964s worth a look as well. Good mix of old and new. C2 manual coupes which are the ones in demand.

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...

[Lungauer]

IMI A said:

Yes not for everyone but if I had to pick one car for the rest of my days (even as a dd) I would pick an air-cooled car (my 3.2C would fit the bill for me but any of them i.e. 993 or 964 would). Any 997 feels over light in the steering and manual gearbox afterwards. I once had a friends 72 RS for a few hours and on my way back in my 997 it felt like I could be driving any eurobox saloon. I find the ride in PASM equipped 997s too soft too. In the OPs shoes for his budget he'd get an amazing air cooled car. If he waits a few years they may be out of reach as good cars are becoming harder to source whether you're looking for a SC, 3.2C, 964 or 993. Took me 3 years to find a car I was happy with and its by no means what I would call perfect but the fact its never been restored and is completely rust free was an attraction for me. There's a gorgeous blue 3.2C just come up for sale at JZM. In the OP's shoes subject to him enjoying the way an earlier car drives I'd try and find a way to buy that and also keep the 997. Honestly do not understand how JZM's cognac 3.2C with 70k miles sold for £30k not long ago and now this blue car is a touch below £40k. Has the market really moved that far in month? Prices just seem all over the place even from the same vendors in some cases. A pre 89 Turbo is a good shout too but very difficult to drive quickly unless you can peddle. A good compromise in my view if it has to be one car and fits the classic appreciating criteria although not water-cooled is a 996 GT3. Again with the OP's budget he'd get one of the best GT3s out there.

This is very interesting, and backs up what I sort of imagined to be the truth (subject to me driving an old air cooled car). Mind you if there is something of the eurobox about the 997 where does that leave the 991?

I've spoken to JZM and we'll see what happens, but in the meantime, and while I thought I didn't want anything but a N/A manual coupe, I was rather taken by this at Gmund:

http://www.gmundcars.com/cars/921/91132supersportc...

[IMI A]

Lungauer said:

IMI A said:

Yes not for everyone but if I had to pick one car for the rest of my days (even as a dd) I would pick an air-cooled car (my 3.2C would fit the bill for me but any of them i.e. 993 or 964 would). Any 997 feels over light in the steering and manual gearbox afterwards. I once had a friends 72 RS for a few hours and on my way back in my 997 it felt like I could be driving any eurobox saloon. I find the ride in PASM equipped 997s too soft too. In the OPs shoes for his budget he'd get an amazing air cooled car. If he waits a few years they may be out of reach as good cars are becoming harder to source whether you're looking for a SC, 3.2C, 964 or 993. Took me 3 years to find a car I was happy with and its by no means what I would call perfect but the fact its never been restored and is completely rust free was an attraction for me. There's a gorgeous blue 3.2C just come up for sale at JZM. In the OP's shoes subject to him enjoying the way an earlier car drives I'd try and find a way to buy that and also keep the 997. Honestly do not understand how JZM's cognac 3.2C with 70k miles sold for £30k not long ago and now this blue car is a touch below £40k. Has the market really moved that far in month? Prices just seem all over the place even from the same vendors in some cases. A pre 89 Turbo is a good shout too but very difficult to drive quickly unless you can peddle. A good compromise in my view if it has to be one car and fits the classic appreciating criteria although not water-cooled is a 996 GT3. Again with the OP's budget he'd get one of the best GT3s out there.

This is very interesting, and backs up what I sort of imagined to be the truth (subject to me driving an old air cooled car). Mind you if there is something of the eurobox about the 997 where does that leave the 991?

I've spoken to JZM and we'll see what happens, but in the meantime, and while I thought I didn't want anything but a N/A manual coupe, I was rather taken by this at Gmund:

http://www.gmundcars.com/cars/921/91132supersportc...

both look lovely. Russ at JZM is a very nice fellow and knows his onions. Be nice if you can pick it up for £35k though. Looks wise the SSE cab wins hands down but coupe is a much better drive. I'm thinking about buying a cab myself but not sure whether to go for an SL instead from the same period. Ideally I'd like both but garage space is scarce and all these older cars rust with our salty roads if used as daily hacks.

[uktrailmonster]

IMI A said:

Looks wise the SSE cab wins hands down but coupe is a much better drive.

IMHO 911 cabs look awful, especially old ones. The 911 coupe roof line is iconic, so chopping it off and replacing it with a pram hood is a big no no for me. Each to their own of course, I know there is a certain appeal to open top motoring, but for me a 911 HAS to be a coupe.

[IMI A]

uktrailmonster said:

IMI A said:

Looks wise the SSE cab wins hands down but coupe is a much better drive.

IMHO 911 cabs look awful, especially old ones. The 911 coupe roof line is iconic, so chopping it off and replacing it with a pram hood is a big no no for me. Each to their own of course, I know there is a certain appeal to open top motoring, but for me a 911 HAS to be a coupe.

yes roof line of 911 iconic but those hips on the wide body car are v.sexy imo. Also open top motoring on a beautiful English summers day has its own allure for those of us who can't peddle like Herr Rohrl.

[Johnny G Pipe]

964 is always the answer me old china. Not old (and mildewy LOL) with gawky long gear stick and feeble HVAC like an IB, and not an anaesthetised modern that you have to drive like an arse to really enjoy, not a bit too special to schlep about in like a GT3, and still going up in value if you buy right (rust and leaks fixed properly, suspension done, don't rule out C4). Job done.

964 Targas also good value now and look nice on that platform, open air motoring with out the pram-look aesthetic trauma.

Edited by Johnny G Pipe on Wednesday 23 July 10:06

[Lungauer]

Johnny G Pipe said:

964 is always the answer me old china. Not old (and mildewy LOL) with gawky long gear stick and feeble HVAC like an IB, and not an anaesthetised modern that you have to drive like an arse to really enjoy, not a bit too special to schlep about in like a GT3, and still going up in value if you buy right (rust and leaks fixed properly, suspension done, don't rule out C4). Job done.

964 Targas also good value now and look nice on that platform, open air motoring with out the pram-look aesthetic trauma.

Edited by Johnny G Pipe on Wednesday 23 July 10:06

I do think I've whittled things down to 3.2C or 964, though speaking of Targas saw a nice Supersport targa in grey which looked nice.

Went to see the 3.2 at JZM and it was a nice, sweet car. Had some car park type dings in the doors when you looked closely. Has been re-painted at some stage (glass out by the look of things under the seals), though not rubbed down properly giving a rather rippled effect. Interior very good for 70k miles and sounded sweet on start up. Didn't have time for test drive and in any case still mulling it over. I think £39k is top dollar and it is the only one I've looked at. Moreover it's quite a decision to jump out of my efficient and fast GTS and get into something 25 years old.

[Lungauer]

Forgot to add - leakdown test of the 3.2 was in mid teens. Apparently 25 or above the engine needs re-building. Good but not great?

[Lungauer]

Well decision made, rightly or wrongly. The GTS is going, which I hope I won't regret too much, and a 67k mile Guards Red 964 is on its way.

I hope this will be the start of an interesting project. I've been recommended to Rennlist, and the PCGB forum has been very helpful. I will be looking for suspension, engine and exhaust upgrades, and possibly in the fullness of time a light weight interior. Any suggestions on this front gratefully received.

[uktrailmonster]

Lungauer said:

Well decision made, rightly or wrongly. The GTS is going, which I hope I won't regret too much, and a 67k mile Guards Red 964 is on its way.

I hope this will be the start of an interesting project. I've been recommended to Rennlist, and the PCGB forum has been very helpful. I will be looking for suspension, engine and exhaust upgrades, and possibly in the fullness of time a light weight interior. Any suggestions on this front gratefully received.

I do hope you gave it a good test drive! I really couldn't imagine giving up my 997 for a 964 and certainly not a GTS. As much as I like the 964 I'd miss the modern chassis and performance too much. Be interesting to see how you get on and hope it works out as expected. The good thing is that you will always get your money back on the 964 down the line.

[OlberJ]

Running a de-cat and a g-pipe on my 964 and I adore the sound.

It's loud but not boomy inside.

The KW suspension is so capable though, definitely worth looking in to.

[EricE]

Lungauer said:

Well decision made, rightly or wrongly. The GTS is going, which I hope I won't regret too much, and a 67k mile Guards Red 964 is on its way.

I hope this will be the start of an interesting project. I've been recommended to Rennlist, and the PCGB forum has been very helpful. I will be looking for suspension, engine and exhaust upgrades, and possibly in the fullness of time a light weight interior. Any suggestions on this front gratefully received.

Nice. Looking forward to a trip report of your adventure. The Pelicanparts.com forum has a lot of useful information too, their focus is still on -73 cars but the 964 section is growing.

[Koln-RS]

It could be a very good buy - guards red, coupe, manual, low mls - if it's checked out well then should be a lot of fun.

Inevitably, there'll be a few jobs and upgrades you'll want to do, but that's part of the enjoyment of earlier 911s, and money spent wisely, not deviating too much from originality, should add value.

Might need a more modern daily to keep it company though.

[lboase]

Lungauer said:

Well decision made, rightly or wrongly. The GTS is going, which I hope I won't regret too much, and a 67k mile Guards Red 964 is on its way.

I hope this will be the start of an interesting project. I've been recommended to Rennlist, and the PCGB forum has been very helpful. I will be looking for suspension, engine and exhaust upgrades, and possibly in the fullness of time a light weight interior. Any suggestions on this front gratefully received.

Congrats! I assume it's the Lawton Brook car? Looks fantastic in the pics.

Would benefit from a suspension refresh with lower ride height. I'd be tempted to stick with the D90s and flags. Also G pipe and de-cat an easy win - sounds brilliant.

You'll enjoy it whatever you do, looks a great car.

[Lungauer]

lboase said:

Congrats! I assume it's the Lawton Brook car? Looks fantastic in the pics.

Would benefit from a suspension refresh with lower ride height. I'd be tempted to stick with the D90s and flags. Also G pipe and de-cat an easy win - sounds brilliant.

You'll enjoy it whatever you do, looks a great car.

It is the Lawton Brook car, currently having some minor things done at RPM. I won't stray too much from original, but looking forward to a certain amount of tinkering. Not something that can be really done on the GTS.

I've spoken to RPM who have vouched for the car, but should I have another independent PPI done by someone else since they are doing the work for LB? As far as I know RPM are not connected to Lawton Brook. Also where can I get the chassis and engine numbers verified? It was supplied new by OPC Leeds (or whatever they were called in 1990) - could they help?