Caterham 6 to Sadev Anyone done it?

Caterham 6 to Sadev Anyone done it?

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DCL

Original Poster:

1,215 posts

178 months

Tuesday 16th December 2014
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After a frustrating few months where domestic commitments stopped progress on Sadev upgrade, I've finally managed to start and took the engine out this week.

Thanks to everyone who has contacted me and offered valued advice - an amalgam of knowledge is beginning to form smile



Dimensionally the two boxes are the same so it should fit but there are differences - namely the fixing bolts are M12 and screw into the gearbox, whereas the caterham six used M10 that screw into the bell housing (possibly only relevant to early factory Duratecs). The gear position is also said to be poor, so some mods are needed there, but I might test fit it to make my own mind up about that first.



This means drilling out the bell housing M10 threads to a M12 clearance hole.




As the clutch is accessible, I thought it worth stripping it down to check it out. Having done 7 sprint events and several track days, it was surprisingly clean with little or no wear.




The only noticeable difference from new was a where the release bearing hand worn a groove in the spring - but no signs of distress anywhere. smile



Edited by DCL on Tuesday 16th December 21:16

c9cwn

6 posts

145 months

Wednesday 17th December 2014
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On the Sadev the top left threaded bolt hole where the bell housing is secured to the gearbox, has shorter threads in than the other 3. So you will need a shorter bolt for this hole.

DCL

Original Poster:

1,215 posts

178 months

Wednesday 17th December 2014
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c9cwn said:
On the Sadev the top left threaded bolt hole where the bell housing is secured to the gearbox, has shorter threads in than the other 3. So you will need a shorter bolt for this hole.
Yeah, it came with a big sticker to that effect. Looks like there's been some issues with that not being noticed.

XTR2Turbo

1,533 posts

230 months

Wednesday 17th December 2014
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I have a sadev and geartronics flatshifter in my Duratec engine westfield.

A great box - sad to say but so much better than the Elite and early Quaiffe boxes However the later quaiffe 4 speed sequenntials are getting good reviews and much cheaper.

You cant compare the change on these to bike sequential. They are a much heavier change. Also you need to let the lever spring back on its own after changing.

David

DCL

Original Poster:

1,215 posts

178 months

Friday 19th December 2014
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Yesterday I started to look at what's involved with the prop-shaft upgrade. With the diff and prop out it gave me a change to compare them side by side.




The standard yoke is 70mm and the upgraded one is 82mm (2 3/4 and 3 1/4 inches) so half an inch bigger.



I originally thought that the mod to the chassis was to allow for increased running clearance, but it looks like it is simply needed to physically slide the front yoke it in place - the clearance between the chassis members being 75 mm. Maybe there's a possibility to dismantle the joint to get it past rather than bend the chassis.



I'm off for my Christmas lunch now so I ponder it between the small talk with a few beers.



GreigM

6,726 posts

248 months

Friday 19th December 2014
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DCL said:
I'm off for my Christmas lunch now so I ponder it between the small talk with a few beers.
Still watching this with interest as I would like to go the same route. The chassis bending however terrifies me and would put me off, so if you can find a solution to this then that would be great....although I have an imperial chassis and am slightly hoping the different tubes make it simpler (I am aware they could make it a lot more difficult!)

DCL

Original Poster:

1,215 posts

178 months

Sunday 21st December 2014
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I must confess I've been putting off the the chassis 'bend', but today I felt up to the task and I'm pleased to say it went very well. I fabricated a jack with arms bent to the curve just a little more than the I was aiming for. It was jacked out until the arms touched along their length and then sprang back to leave just enough room to get prop shaft through. No damage or kinks smile.




GreigM

6,726 posts

248 months

Sunday 21st December 2014
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Good work, did you heat the chassis before starting to help it along, or did it comply without the need for heat?

DCL

Original Poster:

1,215 posts

178 months

Sunday 21st December 2014
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No heating - just went for it. I'm not sure what sort of grade the tube is, but they were strong! Quite a lot of pressure required but they bent in a very controlled way and without any tendency to kink or twist.

bazzat

15 posts

157 months

Sunday 21st December 2014
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What age chassis and is it round top tunnel type?

bazzat

15 posts

157 months

Sunday 21st December 2014
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What age chassis and is it round top tunnel type?

DCL

Original Poster:

1,215 posts

178 months

Sunday 21st December 2014
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It's 2008 metric chassis. Not sure what you mean by a round top but there is a trimmed round aluminium cover that goes on top.

bazzat

15 posts

157 months

Sunday 21st December 2014
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The race chassis have narrow prop/gearbox tunnel and as such have an aluminium round top panel. The road going chassis have wider tunnel which houses the vinyl top. I know yours is a race car but cars that have handbrake in the tunnel are wider. Mine is that and I have same seq prop, I did not need to open anything up.

DCL

Original Poster:

1,215 posts

178 months

Monday 12th January 2015
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An update:

Bad man flu slowed progress over the festive period - I had five days set aside and only managed one on the car frown But I did bolt the gearbox to the engine and then had a go at putting it in the car



But it just wouldn't fit . . .

so tried again from underneath



Still no joy . . .

The obvious problem was that the Sadev is a little taller and hits the top of the tunnel before I can drop the front down.



But the factory fit these, so the real problem was that I have the deeper Cosworth sump - it just needs a bit more of an angle, something I didn't have.

In the end I ended up fitting them separately. Not too much of a problem - the main one being reduced access to torque up the bell housing bolts - but still quite do-able.

The gearbox fit is extremely tight and clearance is really too small on one side. I expect I could run it like that (and accept the occasional contact with the chassis) but I think I will give it a little more thought, possible adjusting mounts to help matters.



With the engine in I decided to put the seat back in and fit the gear lever to assess the position. I first tried it as the factory had supplied it.



It was Ok, and very similar to the Caterham six, but I was unhappy with the angle - it would work better if it was a little more upright. I had been tipped off that fitting it backwards might help so tried this.





The reverse fitting needs the push rod length tweaked - but that was just another excuse to use the lathe biggrin There's still enough adjustment to move it significantly, so I'm happy I can make it work fine




The engine is now out again to allow me to tidy up a few things now that I know were the gearbox sits. Among these are some new fuel lines that will be used to upgrade the fuel system with a filter, fuel rail regulation, and a return line.






Edited by DCL on Monday 12th January 08:42

sfaulds

653 posts

277 months

Monday 12th January 2015
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The factory fit the gearlever in rear position, and indeed your picture at the top of this page shows it fitted correctly with the tower modified to allow the detent cable to clear. Not sure why you'd need to involve a lathe.

DCL

Original Poster:

1,215 posts

178 months

Monday 12th January 2015
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SWR supplied it like this



The picture you refer to has the rod passing through the fork and is not connected. It was too long, and when you connected it, the gear lever pointed forward and would have hit the dash. Although I ordered the Caterham spec, I'm not convinced the factory was quite up to speed with the current Caterham installation. As you say there have been some mods and it is possible the push rod can be supplied in a shorter length.

DCL

Original Poster:

1,215 posts

178 months

Sunday 1st March 2015
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With the engine and gearbox out, I decided to do a nuts & bolts rebuild of the rear end of the car so progress on the upgrade has been slow for that reason. But it's all back together now so an update is due.

Although the MBE9A4 can do flat shifts I had decided to go with the Geartronics set up. It is a well proven combination and suggested by SWR and various others I spoke to.






It is quite literally a plug and play, the harness plugging directly to the gearbox (it uses the Sadev postion pot) and a serial port to your PC. All that is needed is to selct each gear in turn and sample the gear.



The MBE requires a wire to a programmable pin, I chose pin 19 as it was free - the only issue was that the pin was not physically there so some where ordered. It was set up to cut on pin low (closed loop) for the initial test but later set to 'cut and torque recovery'.

After some test on axles stands there was nothing left but but go for it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f51UzDe358M

Some tweaks needed but pleased with the results. These two traces are in similar conditions and show the difference. The blue has three gear changes in it smile









Edited by DCL on Sunday 1st March 15:21

GreigM

6,726 posts

248 months

Sunday 1st March 2015
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Great stuff.....your pre-season prep is going better than McLaren's! Ron will be on the blower soon for some advice biggrin

I'm sticking with what I've got while under warranty, but may follow your lead afterwards.

k20erham

372 posts

125 months

Sunday 1st March 2015
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Looks like a great job, what ratios did you go for? as there are options on 6th, I went for over drive on 6th was really supprised to see was how you seem to rev out at around 115mph ish is that the case? what final drive ratio are you running? I'm running the really tall 3.19 and an overdrive 6th plus my k20 Honda revs to 9k drop circa 500 rpm on each shift so motorway/dual carriageway is circa 3000 rpm at 80mph. I live in London and don't find the tall 1st an issue in traffic shifting with the geartronics paddle shift is fine, I never fitted my gearlever either. mines is a 98 superlite and didn't need to mod the chassis even with the big prop.

DCL

Original Poster:

1,215 posts

178 months

Sunday 1st March 2015
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It has been set up with Knockhill in mind. I chose the 1:1 box with 3.92:1 diff. With Kumho tyres, 8500 RPM it should give around 130 mph which is what I think my maximum speed will be. I was short shifting, while I'm running in the box, so a little more RPM in there, but we'll see if I've got it right when it's driven in anger. If not I've got a 3.64 ready to go