Hitting brick wall with running

[B19GRR]

Right, I'm pretty sure I know what the problem is, VO2 max or rather a lacking in that department. Basically since January I've got myself vaguely fit again, dropped from 14st 2lb to 11st 9lb (6' 1/2"(!) tall) so I'm in a happy place if crappy BMI is to believed and I've got multiple bumps in the gut region now rather than a single one which suggests BF% is pretty good too. I followed the C25K and got to the point where I was running 5k in about 27 minutes. Not going to set the world alight but impressive from someone who's always hated running.

In May I started upping the distance with C10K and had got to not far of 5 miles. Around that time I also started playing with my weights (not much as I've only got 30 odd kg of them knocking around) following the Stronglifts 5x5 programme. I don't have any intention of becoming Mr Universe so I'm happy enough really with the weights I've got, it's better than nothing is my thinking.

In June I had some forced downtime (about 3 weeks) from running as my trainers were causing me some real problems. Once I'd got over that and got some new shoes I started up running again and built back up to 5k but I'm really struggling at anything over 2 miles. Friday night I ran 3.29 miles in 29:29, felt OK for most of it but knew I had to stop at that point. Today I covered 2.97 miles in 26:40 but had to stop running 4 or 5 times in the second half and walk a bit.

Health is pretty good, not got a cold or anything, eating well (2000Cals a day as a base plus eating back extra to cover exercise), so I'm a bit confused why less than two months after being able to cover 4.5-5 miles I'm now being blown away by less than 3. My target is to be able to run 3 times a week, 2x10k and 1x5k, not asking much.

<tl-dr/>

Summing up, after a bit of reading up on VO2max the general recommendation is intervals, is it that simple? Should I just dedicate one of my weekly runs to intervals (thinking 30s run, 60s recovery to start for maybe 10 reps or until I puke) or is there some better programme to follow, maybe with a helpful free app!

Thanks for any thoughts.

Cheers,
Rob

Edited by B19GRR on Sunday 13th July 20:23

[Z4monster]

Don't get caught up chasing a time at the moment. Try running a little slower than you normally would and concentrate on getting the distance back up to where you want to be.

It sounds like you need to get more comfortable at running longer distances and then your shorter runs should be faster and easier to do. No shame in run/walk/run sessions. Breaks in training can easily set you back so you need to rebuild again to get the same pace/distance and be comfortable at it.

I started running around 2 years ago and have never been athletic in the slightest. Hated sports at school with a passion and was always last to finish in school races.

Now my PB for park run is 27:28 (5k) and my 10k time is under 01:01 (Just) My aim is to get the 10k time under the hour. I've also entered my first half marathon in September so currently training for that.

My plan tells me to run slower for the longer runs so that I get the mileage in without killing myself. Then some of the shorter runs include 20 second sprints with 2 minute recovery in between.

Everyone is different so you just need to take it easy and build it back up again.

[ewenm]

My basic 3-runs-a-week advice is this:

• One long slow run. Pace is entirely irrelevant. Time on feet is important.
• One medium length steady run. Pace is at the level you can only just hold a conversation in short sentences.
• One faster "session". This might be a shorter hard pace run or intervals round a park or hill reps. Something to get the heart going hard but with some recovery time built in.

If you run the same pace all the time you'll plateau. If you run hard all the time you'll exhaust yourself. Variation of pace and distance is key. Lots of experienced runners on the running thread in the Sports sub-forum.

[B19GRR]

Thanks for the thoughts gents. I think mixing it up a bit will be of benefit, I might just be a bit target fixated on getting to the 2x10, 1x5 state.

One problem I seem to have is pace control though, I seem to be averaging 8:30 mins/mile, only got below 8 min/mile once and paid for that on the next 2 miles. I find it really hard to run slower and keep any sense of form. I'm attempting my best for a midfoot strike and think I'm getting there, calves are achy but recover in a day. My route is also quite rolling, I live on top of a hill in the Yorkshire Wolds so I run the road along the ridge, it's not massively up and down but there's definite changes in gradient that gets the heart and lungs working overtime!

Cheers,
Rob

[a boardman]

I did a vo2 test and they came back saying I need to do more speed in order to improve my 10k and marathon times.

Suggested 10 sec sprints with 30 sec rest x 8 times(then 10 12 10) twice a week and over 12 weeks going up to 15 sec then 20 seconds.

Done first week (i am marathon training and into week 3 of that but will now be doing the speed as recommended along with my slow long run )and already got a pb on my 10k today only 10 seconds but felt stronger and better.

[fandango_c]

B19GRR said:

Thanks for the thoughts gents. I think mixing it up a bit will be of benefit, I might just be a bit target fixated on getting to the 2x10, 1x5 state.

One problem I seem to have is pace control though, I seem to be averaging 8:30 mins/mile, only got below 8 min/mile once and paid for that on the next 2 miles. I find it really hard to run slower and keep any sense of form. I'm attempting my best for a midfoot strike and think I'm getting there, calves are achy but recover in a day. My route is also quite rolling, I live on top of a hill in the Yorkshire Wolds so I run the road along the ridge, it's not massively up and down but there's definite changes in gradient that gets the heart and lungs working overtime!

Cheers,
Rob

Your pace seems too fast to me.

My 10k PB (in March this year) is 42 minutes and 1hr 32 for a half marathon. I typically do 6 miles for a slow run with my pace around 9:00 mins/mile (I go by heart rate rather than pace). I also to some intervals and faster tempo runs, but most of my miles are slow runs.

I find slow runs to be quite difficult to maintain what seems a very slow pace, but I think they have done by far the most to improve my running speed.

[goldblum]

fandango_c said:

Your pace seems too fast to me.

It seems faster than his suggested 8.30 m/miles!

fandango_c said:

I find slow runs to be quite difficult to maintain what seems a very slow pace, but I think they have done by far the most to improve my running speed.

Quite likely: You need long slow (highly aerobic)runs to help anaerobic recovery... . So without LSD runs intervals will suffer and you'll struggle getting faster.

[B19GRR]

goldblum said:

fandango_c said:

Your pace seems too fast to me.

It seems faster than his suggested 8.30 m/miles!

fandango_c said:

I find slow runs to be quite difficult to maintain what seems a very slow pace, but I think they have done by far the most to improve my running speed.

Quite likely: You need long slow (highly aerobic)runs to help anaerobic recovery... . So without LSD runs intervals will suffer and you'll struggle getting faster.

Just double checked my pace on the last two runs, 3.29 miles @ 29:29 = 8:58 average, actual splits were 8:20, 8:52 and 9:19. 2.97 miles @ 26:40, average was 8:59, splits 8:08, 8:27 which means the last 0.97 took over 10 minutes, which makes sense as I walked a chunk of it. I had deliberately set out to run the 3.29 at a slower pace, sounds like I need to be even slower, and the 2.97 at a higher pace (had wanted to run 3.5 miles that time). Interesting that the average pace of the two runs was practically identical.

So what pace should I aim at for a slow run, 10mins/mile or even slower?

And tell me more about this LSD stuff?

Cheers,
Rob

[goldblum]

B19GRR said:

Just double checked my pace on the last two runs, 3.29 miles @ 29:29 = 8:58 average, actual splits were 8:20, 8:52 and 9:19. 2.97 miles @ 26:40, average was 8:59, splits 8:08, 8:27 which means the last 0.97 took over 10 minutes, which makes sense as I walked a chunk of it. I had deliberately set out to run the 3.29 at a slower pace, sounds like I need to be even slower, and the 2.97 at a higher pace (had wanted to run 3.5 miles that time). Interesting that the average pace of the two runs was practically identical.

Yeah sure - sorry I based my comment on this:

B19GRR said:

got to the point where I was running 5k in about 27 minutes.

..and didn't fully read your post. Late night etc..

B19GRR said:

So what pace should I aim at for a slow run, 10mins/mile or even slower?

Can someone run that slow?

B19GRR said:

And tell me more about this LSD stuff?

Cheers,
Rob

Sorry about my hash of a post.

As others have said the importance of building an aerobic endurance base if you want to run faster cannot be underestimated. A good endurance base will help you recover quicker during intervals and hence improve your sprints. If I was you I'd drop all but one quick run a week and focus on building your slow distance run up to about 8 miles depending on what races you want to run. For 10ks 8 miles is fine. Current thinking is that there are two ways to improve RSAs (repeated sprint ability) - intervals themselves and working on the factors that cause fatigue during intervals. These factors are improved with aerobic training.

[theshrew]

ewenm said:

My basic 3-runs-a-week advice is this:

• One long slow run. Pace is entirely irrelevant. Time on feet is important.
• One medium length steady run. Pace is at the level you can only just hold a conversation in short sentences.
• One faster "session". This might be a shorter hard pace run or intervals round a park or hill reps. Something to get the heart going hard but with some recovery time built in.

If you run the same pace all the time you'll plateau. If you run hard all the time you'll exhaust yourself. Variation of pace and distance is key. Lots of experienced runners on the running thread in the Sports sub-forum.

This worked for me

[B19GRR]

goldblum said:

B19GRR said:

So what pace should I aim at for a slow run, 10mins/mile or even slower?

Can someone run that slow?

Well that's the question really! Just what is a slow pace for me, if it's 10mins/mile on the terrain I cover then that's fine as long as my form doesn't go wonky and I start hurting myself, I just need to figure out how to pace myself better. Could do with an app that gives frequent updates on pace, I'm using endomondo (free) which only tells me my pace at the end of each completed mile, an update every 30s would be handier, anyone got any suggestions?

Cheers,
Rob

[boyse7en]

goldblum said:

B19GRR said:

So what pace should I aim at for a slow run, 10mins/mile or even slower?

Can someone run that slow?

Yes, quite easily.

I did a 15 mile LSR run on Saturday, and my last two miles were around 10:20. Was well knackered by then.

[fandango_c]

B19GRR said:

goldblum said:

B19GRR said:

So what pace should I aim at for a slow run, 10mins/mile or even slower?

Can someone run that slow?

Well that's the question really! Just what is a slow pace for me, if it's 10mins/mile on the terrain I cover then that's fine as long as my form doesn't go wonky and I start hurting myself, I just need to figure out how to pace myself better. Could do with an app that gives frequent updates on pace, I'm using endomondo (free) which only tells me my pace at the end of each completed mile, an update every 30s would be handier, anyone got any suggestions?

Cheers,
Rob

I have a heart rate monitor with GPS. I aim to run around a certain heart rate for my slow runs, rather than a particular pace. I've found it to be extremely useful and provides good feedback as to how my fitness is - i.e. mypace improving at a certain heart rate.

[B19GRR]

OK, I went for a LSR (check me and my jargon!) tonight having invested in Runtastic Pro which has a pace monitoring feature (nice lady telling you to speed up or slow down, say no more). I set my target pace to a 10mins/mile just to see what it was like. Slightly unexpected result was that I ran 6.04 miles in 57:52 giving me an average of 9:34min/mile. So that's practically scientific proof that going slow is a good thing! I found that pace pretty comfortable and it even got my over the hill at the 3 mile mark (and again at 5 miles) that I've always struggled with.

Next run should be on Friday, I've set up an interval session, basically 10mins run then 10x 10s run/1min recovery then a 5 min cool down run, should see me coughing up a lung or two. Sunday should be a 5k-ish run at a faster pace TBD.

So cracking stuff, I'm feeling pretty chuffed at getting to 6 miles and kicking myself for not asking sooner and getting myself on a better track. Thanks all!

Cheers,
Rob

[theshrew]

B19GRR said:

Next run should be on Friday, I've set up an interval session, basically 10mins run then 10x 10s run/1min recovery then a 5 min cool down run, should see me coughing up a lung or two. Sunday should be a 5k-ish run at a faster pace TBD.

Be prepared to adjust the times on the work / rest times if your new ish to running. Intervals are hard so if after a few reps rest longer if required.

One good thing is the time seems to go quicker when you do them

[honest_delboy]

boyse7en said:

goldblum said:

B19GRR said:

So what pace should I aim at for a slow run, 10mins/mile or even slower?

Can someone run that slow?

Yes, quite easily.

I did a 15 mile LSR run on Saturday, and my last two miles were around 10:20. Was well knackered by then.

When I started getting back into running I was doing 5km in 38:30 (yes you read that right), I must've looked like some broken down carthorse trotting along.

[goldblum]

boyse7en said:

goldblum said:

B19GRR said:

So what pace should I aim at for a slow run, 10mins/mile or even slower?

Can someone run that slow?

Yes, quite easily.

I did a 15 mile LSR run on Saturday, and my last two miles were around 10:20. Was well knackered by then.

You knew I was joking, yes?

[jimbop1]

B19GRR said:

Just double checked my pace on the last two runs, 3.29 miles @ 29:29 = 8:58 average, actual splits were 8:20, 8:52 and 9:19. 2.97 miles @ 26:40, average was 8:59, splits 8:08, 8:27 which means the last 0.97 took over 10 minutes, which makes sense as I walked a chunk of it. I had deliberately set out to run the 3.29 at a slower pace, sounds like I need to be even slower, and the 2.97 at a higher pace (had wanted to run 3.5 miles that time). Interesting that the average pace of the two runs was practically identical.

So what pace should I aim at for a slow run, 10mins/mile or even slower?

And tell me more about this LSD stuff?

Cheers,
Rob

10 min miles for a long run is absolutely fine.

I really would throw in at least 2 intense interval/sprint sessions a week. It only has to be 20 mins.
Maybe start off with with 30 seconds at 90% followed by 60 seconds rest to get your heart rate back down. As you progress make the rest periods shorter.

[ewenm]

jimbop1 said:

10 min miles for a long run is absolutely fine.

I really would throw in at least 2 intense interval/sprint sessions a week. It only has to be 20 mins.
Maybe start off with with 30 seconds at 90% followed by 60 seconds rest to get your heart rate back down. As you progress make the rest periods shorter.

I'd agree if the OP was trying to run every day but not for a 3 runs a week schedule. Need to balance interval/speed work with building aerobic endurance.

[B19GRR]

To keep this updated, I did my interval run on Saturday, went OK and I managed all 10 "sprints" (HA!). I then slightly foolishly went for another LSR on Sunday as I wanted to get my pattern set so I'm doing that at the weekends. Managed 5.5miles at 9:50ish but suffered a bit in parts probably due to running the day before, so lesson learnt there, keep that rest day in place.

Should be out this evening for a 5k thinking of targeting an 8:45 pace but we'll see how I feel when I get out on the road!

Cheers,
Rob