The Automatic Gearbox And Its Failings

[cerb4.5lee]

E65Ross said:

cerb4.5lee said:

For me its just the ability to have full control of the throttle with a manual as you can blip the revs yourself on down changes, monitor have many revs you want while pulling away from a standing start or just play and mess about with revs yourself while controlling the throttle pedal by dipping the clutch.

With respect to how many revs you use when pulling away, modern boxes like the DCT allow this (ala launch control). Blipping the throttle on down shifts....again many boxes now do this so by doing it manually I'm not sure what extra control you have (and how that might effect how the engine responds etc). I totally understand the whole "it feels nice thing" trust me, I really do....I was the one who implored my dad to get a manual for his E92 M3.....but I'm not sure how the manual offers any more actual CONTROL as to what's going on?

Most autos do shift up at the redline, IIRC the later DCT boxes do not when in manual mode....but even when driving a manual car I can't remember driving, bouncing off the limiter thinking "nah, dont fancy shifting up now, let's hold it here for a while" even when on country roads out for a blast.

cerb4.5lee said:

Not to mention the fulfilment of a nice gear change at high revs executed yourself for example completing a third to fourth gear change at 8400rpm in my old M3 was very rewarding if you got it right and you wouldn't feel the same satisfaction with the DCT because its electronics doing the work so it is all about feel for me.

Agree 100% as I've always said for cars that you want a thrilling experience. However, that's feel and enjoyment and not actually control (in my opinion).

Hope that makes sense

I do understand what you mean Ross and to be honest in terms of mechanical sympathy I have never really been one to hang onto the limiter I have hit it a few times but wouldn't just hold it there for the sake of it.

I just wish mine and my mrs`s motor and that has a twin clutch with paddles and even that in manual mode changes up automatically so again you are not in control of it and its only a little detail but it still reminds me that the gearbox is in full control.

[ORD]

A manual offers substantially more control:-

(1) You can block change (5th to 2nd).
(2) Your inputs are never overridden by a box that disagrees.
(3) You control the speed and manner in which the clutch is operated.
(4) You control the speed and manner in which throttle is applied during the change.

(1) and (2) give a greater feeling of interaction and command.

(3) and (4) affect the speed, smoothness and effect on road speed of the change. All involve greater control.

[bennyboysvuk]

redtwin said:

bennyboysvuk said:

My car is hopelessly over-tyred and thus has way more traction than power to overcome it, even in first gear. Even in 2nd gear mid-corner when leaping on the throttle with all driving aids off the rears don't slide, the front just pushes wide instead. It's horrible. Having driven cars with less power, similar grip and a manual gearbox and clutch I can confirm that it's way easier to light up the tyres with a manual, whether going in a straight line or not.

Pity you are so far away, I would gladly show you how to easily light up the rear tyres with an autobox. If "over-tyred" means you have drag racing slicks fitted then it won't be so easy, but it can still be done.

I'm not saying wheelspin per-se is the be all and end all, but this car (E91 330i auto - 255hp) won't do it in the dry.

It has Michelin PS2 in 255/40-18 size on the rear. What did you have in mind to spin them? In the dry, everything I've tried has failed. Due to the hopelessly weak rear ARB, the inside rear won't even spin when I give it a huge amount of throttle and throw in a turn of the steering wheel too. The only way to get the rears spinning is to drive in the wet, which is actually when the car drives at its best and is slightly more interactive.

Spinning the rears in a X63 Merc (apart from the ML) is normal, but in the above car, it just won't happen...which is a world away from previous model M-sports.

As Lee said, the ability to control how the power is applied to the driven wheels and everything that goes with it gives the driver a fantastic amount of options (good and bad), which add up to give more control. e.g. Popping the clutch in a GT86 to get a drift started.

[Kawasicki]

bennyboysvuk said:

I'm not saying wheelspin per-se is the be all and end all, but this car (E91 330i auto - 255hp) won't do it in the dry.

It has Michelin PS2 in 255/40-18 size on the rear. What did you have in mind to spin them? In the dry, everything I've tried has failed. Due to the hopelessly weak rear ARB, the inside rear won't even spin when I give it a huge amount of throttle and throw in a turn of the steering wheel too. The only way to get the rears spinning is to drive in the wet, which is actually when the car drives at its best and is slightly more interactive.

Spinning the rears in a X63 Merc (apart from the ML) is normal, but in the above car, it just won't happen...which is a world away from previous model M-sports.

As Lee said, the ability to control how the power is applied to the driven wheels and everything that goes with it gives the driver a fantastic amount of options (good and bad), which add up to give more control. e.g. Popping the clutch in a GT86 to get a drift started.

If you corner at the peak of what the car can achieve, then apply full throttle, your 330i spin the wheels.

[McSatan]

ORD said:

A manual offers substantially more control:-

(1) You can block change (5th to 2nd).
(2) Your inputs are never overridden by a box that disagrees.
(3) You control the speed and manner in which the clutch is operated.
(4) You control the speed and manner in which throttle is applied during the change.

(1) and (2) give a greater feeling of interaction and command.

(3) and (4) affect the speed, smoothness and effect on road speed of the change. All involve greater control.

And (and this is the big one for me)... a manual is more fun. Much more. This is only my opinion, of course, so feel free to disagree with me. You'll just be deluded as well as wrong

[TurboHatchback]

ORD said:

A manual offers substantially more control:-

(1) You can block change (5th to 2nd).
(2) Your inputs are never overridden by a box that disagrees.
(3) You control the speed and manner in which the clutch is operated.
(4) You control the speed and manner in which throttle is applied during the change.

(1) and (2) give a greater feeling of interaction and command.

(3) and (4) affect the speed, smoothness and effect on road speed of the change. All involve greater control.

(1) I'm pretty sure that a DSG or modern auto can go from 5th to 2nd down through all its gears faster than a driver can block change with a manual. Either the synchro limits how quickly it can be slotted in (if you have any mechanical sympathy) or double declutching is required which takes time.
(2) The box is more likely to be correct than the driver
(3) "
(4) "

It is quite correct to say that a manual gives the driver more control, 99% of the time this is not objectively a good thing as electronics can provide better control.

To clarify, I have a manual and like it very much. I gain great enjoyment from a perfect rev matched downshift, a perfect fast launch and quick 1st to 2nd change etc etc. I am 100% sure that the DSG gearbox could do it faster and better than I can. I have more control, not better control.

The reason I have a manual is because it's cheaper to buy, much less likely to go wrong and on the rare moments that I get to do any fun driving I enjoy it. I wouldn't suggest for a moment that it is faster or objectively better than a DSG/auto.

[FiF]

TurboHatchback said:

(1) I'm pretty sure that a DSG or modern auto can go from 5th to 2nd down through all its gears faster than a driver can block change with a manual. Either the synchro limits how quickly it can be slotted in (if you have any mechanical sympathy) or double declutching is required which takes time.

Will just select this bit for comment. That's not to say that there was anything wrong with the rest of a pretty much spot on post.

Yes can confirm that if, big if, the driver learns how to use the box correctly then dual clutch type transmissions can and do block change down very smoothly and quickly.

Upward block changes, should they be desired can be somewhat more problematic, but find that so small a problem as to be effectively non existent.

The block change that a DCT won't do, and it's a very good thing it won't, is the unintentional consequence of a rushed and stressed downshift at high speed. Typified by a dogleg from 5>4, say, that ends up 5>2 and owwwwww!

Case of less (control) is more.

Note for editors: the above post clearly does not apply to driving gods, real or simply in their imagination.

[Jubal]

I accidentally found myself on a 120 mile A road trip yesterday courtesy of the motorway snarl ups. In a 520d auto. It was sublime, always in the right gear, tweak of the toe for an overtake and even down changes for tight corners. I didn't use the paddles once. Of course I'd have rather been in a manual sports car but given the circumstances it was a thoroughly enjoyable drive. The OP must have an older box because these modern 8 speed autos are a revelation.

[liner33]

ORD said:

A manual offers substantially more control:-

(1) You can block change (5th to 2nd).
(2) Your inputs are never overridden by a box that disagrees.
(3) You control the speed and manner in which the clutch is operated.
(4) You control the speed and manner in which throttle is applied during the change.

(1) and (2) give a greater feeling of interaction and command.

(3) and (4) affect the speed, smoothness and effect on road speed of the change. All involve greater control.

You do know that you dont really have control over the throttle on a modern car? Most are controlled by the ecu with the throttle pedal merely providing an input to the ecu, its the car that decides how much throttle to actually give you.

With a dsg certainly the way the clutch is engaged is controlled largely by the throttle also so for 3&4 there is arguably little difference between a manual and auto.

As for 1 , I see not real benefit to block changing its there to ensure you are in the correct gear at the relevant road speed , which is taken as read for an auto. Again arguably block changing provides less control than conventional sequential changing.

2 , I imagine if you really want to to go first, second, first when accelerating you can , saw a Ford Orion do it once off a traffic light GP , most entertaining. Having the option to do the wrong thing doesnt enter highly on my list of desirable features, kinda like not wanting a foot operated parking brake because you like to do handbrake turns

[lufbramatt]

Mine will also change down by itself if you dab the brakes when coasting downhill, will hold it in a lower gear to control the speed until you accelerate again. and that's on a 11 year old 'box.

[ORD]

liner33 said:

ORD said:

A manual offers substantially more control:-

(1) You can block change (5th to 2nd).
(2) Your inputs are never overridden by a box that disagrees.
(3) You control the speed and manner in which the clutch is operated.
(4) You control the speed and manner in which throttle is applied during the change.

(1) and (2) give a greater feeling of interaction and command.

(3) and (4) affect the speed, smoothness and effect on road speed of the change. All involve greater control.

You do know that you dont really have control over the throttle on a modern car? Most are controlled by the ecu with the throttle pedal merely providing an input to the ecu, its the car that decides how much throttle to actually give you.

With a dsg certainly the way the clutch is engaged is controlled largely by the throttle also so for 3&4 there is arguably little difference between a manual and auto.

As for 1 , I see not real benefit to block changing its there to ensure you are in the correct gear at the relevant road speed , which is taken as read for an auto. Again arguably block changing provides less control than conventional sequential changing.

2 , I imagine if you really want to to go first, second, first when accelerating you can , saw a Ford Orion do it once off a traffic light GP , most entertaining. Having the option to do the wrong thing doesnt enter highly on my list of desirable features, kinda like not wanting a foot operated parking brake because you like to do handbrake turns

The auto-lovers really cant accept the unequivocally correct, it seems

Using the manual mode in an auto does prevent block shifts in any true sense, simply because it is sequential. You can hold down the paddle and watch the 'box tick down the gears (not all of which, I don't think, are even engaged), but that is a billion miles from being able to simply pull the stick out of 5th and slot it into 2nd.

You are wrong re 3 & 4. The 'box decides how quickly to engage the clutch and how much throttle to apply during engagement. It will (or may) take into account the throttle input that you make during the change, but I expect it is determined largely on the basis of shift patterns (that are selected according to road speed, recent throttle and brake inputs, etc). You have much much less control over the speed and character of the change.

Being able to screw up a gear change may or may not be desirable, but it is an element of control.

I am not criticising autos. I am merely pointing out that one has far less control of changes than in a manual.

As for whether or not an auto is better at changing gear, my PDK 'box is much better than I am at some changes and worse at others. It is much better at fast, high-rev changes than I am; it is a bit better at low-rev smooth changes; but it is probably a bit worse at some changes (surprisingly), including 2nd to 1st at low to medium revs.

[lufbramatt]

ORD said:

A manual offers substantially more control:-

(1) You can block change (5th to 2nd).
(2) Your inputs are never overridden by a box that disagrees.
(3) You control the speed and manner in which the clutch is operated.
(4) You control the speed and manner in which throttle is applied during the change.

(1) and (2) give a greater feeling of interaction and command.

(3) and (4) affect the speed, smoothness and effect on road speed of the change. All involve greater control.

Re: number 3- have you ever driven a recent BMW or Subaru (and I'm sure there's others) with a clutch delay valve? ugh.

[Fastchas]

I'm thinking of buying a '2006/7 A6 TDi. There are loads around with the Multi-tronic 'box but I've read a few slatings of this box.
Does anyone have any experience of it?
What are the problems?
Should I avoid?

[ORD]

lufbramatt said:

Re: number 3- have you ever driven a recent BMW or Subaru (and I'm sure there's others) with a clutch delay valve? ugh.

Not sure. 2007 335i and 2014 320d are the only auto BMWs I have driven, I think.

Cant say I agree with all the plaudits for the 8 speed auto. To my mind, it was far worse than a dual clutch.

[liner33]

ORD said:

You are wrong re 3 & 4. The 'box decides how quickly to engage the clutch and how much throttle to apply during engagement. It will (or may) take into account the throttle input that you make during the change, but I expect it is determined largely on the basis of shift patterns (that are selected according to road speed, recent throttle and brake inputs, etc). You have much much less control over the speed and character of the change.

The box on my dsg decides how to apply the clutch from standstill based on throttle input, if you apply throttle steadily it pulls away smoothly and conversely if you stab the pedal it jolts the clutch ie its not just down to position but rate of increase.

Since there is no physical connection between the throttle and the engine any real control is an illusion.

Re block changing I agree you cant do it with an auto but I would argue that since you dont need to then the fact you cant isnt a failing. I very rarely block change a manual anyhow and much rather go down through the gears so the fact I can is no benefit to me , the difference is with an auto you dont need to block change since the car is always in the right gear.

Edited by liner33 on Wednesday 23 July 11:49

[E65Ross]

Sticks. said:

ORD said:

The auto-lovers really cant accept the unequivocally correct, it seems

Using the manual mode in an auto does prevent block shifts in any true sense, simply because it is sequential. You can hold down the paddle and watch the 'box tick down the gears (not all of which, I don't think, are even engaged), but that is a billion miles from being able to simply pull the stick out of 5th and slot it into 2nd.

That's not the case in the dual clutch systems, which for the purposes of this thread would be considered auto.

I suspect there's potential for a whole thread on whether you should, but I'm not going there

ORD - modern autos like the 8 speed can shift 3 gears at once. When I owned a manual car I can't EVER remembering block changing that much, in fact, I barely block changed at all. With respect to block changing and control, I did ask how this change of control would alter the drive and when it would be used in daily driving, so when would a block change as described by you be used and how would that be different from shifting a few gears at any given time (quicker than you can manually) with an auto?

Besides, of you like shifting so much, why block change
In my last manual car when on fun drives goijg from high speed straights to slow speed corners I'd always shift sequentially anyway, because it was nice and also to make sure I didn't rev the engine too high.

[McSatan]

Brakes for slow, gears for go. Being in the right gear for a situation when <ahem> 'making progress' often demands block shifting.

[jamieduff1981]

That's not how that pro racing driver drove that awesome qualifying lap in the Ferrari breadvan video from the PH Time for Tea section a few months back. I've certainly never block changed more than 3 gears in one go. Stepping down through gears with paddles is no hassle at all because you don't have to take your hands off the wheel at all.

A point - my XF will easily spin wheels from a standstill without holding it against the brakes to rev the engine and without any significant accelerator pedal travel.

I've driven numerous higher end automatics which have blended driver enjoyment with ease of use and downright effectiveness. Automatics are not exclusively the preserve of big slow wafters, and frankly anyone who thinks that is an idiot.

Lastly - I think we've all established that small BMWs are a bit mediocre, so how about we all stop assuming that BMW are the be all and end all and therefore if BMW make an utter arse of a concept then all cars with similar attributes must be equally cack. You 3-series owners just need to accept that your cars are not the ultimate driving machine they were once marketted as. If you want to use a 3-series as your benchmark then fine, but accept that it sets a fairly low bar than many manufacturers you consider inferior do things like driver involvement and automatic gearbox execution far better.

[E65Ross]

McSatan said:

Brakes for slow, gears for go. Being in the right gear for a situation when <ahem> 'making progress' often demands block shifting.

Surely with block shifting down you'll slow down slower than with shifting sequentially because you'll have more engine braking more of the time? Thus if you could shift quicker in a manual and want to slow down as fast as possible you wouldn't block shift? In which case a fast shifting sequential box does exactly what you'd actually want to do in that situation, no?

And if not, bet you with a DCT box I could shift down 3 gears faster than you could with a manual, so I'm not entirely sure the manual offers more meaningful control?

In fact, the only relevant point I genuinely see to the manual is for fun and enjoyment which is perfectly fine. But more control? No. Maybe compared to the old style gearboxes but the newer ones... Not so sure. With regards to them automatically shifting up, that's not the gearbox, that's the calibration, you can EASILY get someone to change that, any decent remapping company can do that. Besides, I've never ever held a car on the limiter and can't think why you would without then shifting up a gear.

[johnbanks]

I like my dual clutch that only goes up or down one gear at a time except for in auto mode when you want acceleration when it messes about dropping a few gears. I like my 8 speed ZF better as it is just sublime in every way. I like the novelty of my wife's manual occasionally.

Overall, the whole concept of having a gearbox is because we have inadequate engines that need them. Same with a clutch. The need to control deficits in torque delivery from the ideal of powerful electric motors in each wheel supplied from a lightweight, long lasting, quick to replenish power source is arguably an illusion of control, and engineering out the last remnants of that through good autoboxes or electric cars doesn't sacrifice driving enjoyment for me which is about skilled application of forces to the tyres, which remains even in an electric car.