Malaysian Airlines 777 down on Ukraine / Russia Border?

[mrpurple]

Murph7355 said:

mrpurple said:

Having just returned from Bulgaria I paraphrase what a local told me, "we the ordinary people don't want to be part of a federal state of Europe but the rich (politicians) do........ they (meaning EU) want to control us just like Russia did, same as Hitler tried, only this time without bullets..........I love your queen and we want our monarchy back also.....this EU trying to take over the whole of Europe will not end well"

The local Bulgarian is pretty spot on IMO.

Politicians are not to be trusted, no matter what country they come from.

He also told me "not a single Bulgarian politician has been prosecuted for anything since Russia left (after 1st giving them suitcases of money)"

His view on Nigel Farage surprised me I must admit.

[skyrover]

XJ Flyer said:

I did answer the question in this case Russia acting with a lot more restraint in that regard than we did in the case of Northern Ireland.IE we sent the army in then dictated terms and conditions to the Irish nationalist side.The result being the border drawn between Northern and Southern Ireland to date.

you have not answered my question

XJ Flyer said:

As for Poland yes Poland is now richer at our expense.

Indeed... it has cost us a bloody fortune, but I don't remember the UK being dragged into the EU by military force

[saaby93]

XJ Flyer said:

Eric Mc said:

XJ Flyer said:

we sent the army in then dictated terms and conditions to the Irish nationalist side.The result being the border drawn between Northern and Southern Ireland to date.

When was this supposed to have happened?
What year are you talking about?

It's irrelevant 'when' it happened the fact is it did happen and the British have been happy to maintain the border and decisions of the loyalist community ever since.

it isnt irrelevant as its rubbish. Try checking out what really happened
Anyway if that's what propaganda has done it only serves to highlight the point other people are making

[PoleDriver]

Thank god they Americans would never have such an unfortunate accident as this!
Luckily, if they did, they would know how to deal with the perpetrator!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1208808/...

[Eric Mc]

XJ Flyer said:

It's irrelevant 'when' it happened the fact is it did happen and the British have been happy to maintain the border and decisions of the loyalist community ever since.

Is that an admission that you don't know the real events?

When making any sort of assertion it would be advisable that the person making the assertion is knowledgeable of the facts that underline that assertion.

I would strongly advise that you look up the truth as to how the border was drawn up between Northern Ireland and the (then) Irish Free State.

It had absolutely NOTHING to do with the British Army then or later.

[XJ Flyer]

skyrover said:

XJ Flyer said:

I did answer the question in this case Russia acting with a lot more restraint in that regard than we did in the case of Northern Ireland.IE we sent the army in then dictated terms and conditions to the Irish nationalist side.The result being the border drawn between Northern and Southern Ireland to date.

you have not answered my question

XJ Flyer said:

As for Poland yes Poland is now richer at our expense.

Indeed... it has cost us a bloody fortune, but I don't remember the UK being dragged into the EU by military force

I did answer the question in that the Brits would be hypocrites to ctriticise the Russians for doing exactly what we did in the case of Ireland.Which the Russians obviously haven't even done ( yet ) in Ukraine.

By that comparison I don't think that Northern Ireland has been dragged into the UK by military force either.Although that's obviously how the provisional IRA and the continuity IRA saw/see it just as the Ukrainian nationalists obviously see the idea of a Russian controlled Eastern Ukraine.

[skyrover]

XJ Flyer said:

I did answer the question in that the Brits would be hypocrites to ctriticise the Russians for doing exactly what we did in the case of Ireland.Which the Russians obviously haven't even done ( yet ) in Ukraine.

My question was

Would it be acceptable for the EU to send weaponry, spec ops and mercenaries to Scotland in order to sabotage our Union because some of the Scots wish to remain in Europe?

British history is full of rights and wrongs... my question still stands though.

[MrCarPark]

skyrover said:

My question was

Would it be acceptable for the EU to send weaponry, spec ops and mercenaries to Scotland in order to sabotage our Union because some of the Scots wish to remain in Europe?

British history is full of rights and wrongs... my question still stands though.

Not wishing to get involved in your lively debate, but could you point me to some evidence of the EU supplying weaponry to Ukraine?

[skyrover]

MrCarPark said:

skyrover said:

My question was

Would it be acceptable for the EU to send weaponry, spec ops and mercenaries to Scotland in order to sabotage our Union because some of the Scots wish to remain in Europe?

British history is full of rights and wrongs... my question still stands though.

Not wishing to get involved in your lively debate, but could you point me to some evidence of the EU supplying weaponry to Ukraine?

They aren't... that's my point. Although I believe Poland has supplied a fair bit of medical supplies and bullet proof vests.

Somehow XJflyer seems to think it's perfectly justified that Russia cause mayhem in East Ukraine because the EU has "bribed" Ukrainian politicians to move away from Russia's sphere of influence.

[saaby93]

XJ Flyer said:

I did answer the question in that the Brits would be hypocrites to ctriticise the Russians for doing exactly what we did in the case of Ireland. Which the Russians obviously haven't even done ( yet) in Ukraine.

By that comparison I don't think that Northern Ireland has been dragged into the UK by military force either.

ok lets see where this goes
It was the UK that proposed/allowed the separation of Eire while retaining Ulster

Do you mean it's comparable in Russia allowing separation of Ukraine while retaining Crimea?

[Eric Mc]

XJ Flyer said:

I

By that comparison I don't think that Northern Ireland has been dragged into the UK by military force either.

Is that a change of mind then?

Do you do know that -

a) the border was drawn up in 1921/22

b) it was drawn up by a Border Commission which was made up of people from both communities and Britain

c) This group included Arthur Griffiths (head of Sinn Féin) and Michael Collins (head of the IRA).

The pictures shows Michael Collins signing the treaty.

[EskimoArapaho]

XJ Flyer said:

EskimoArapaho said:

XJ Flyer said:

Ukraine wants to break away from historic Russian sphere of influence to join the EU because the EU is offering better financial incentives in an obvious agenda of shifting it's influence into that of previous Russian influence.The Russian section of the Ukrainian population wants to stay with Russia.What is effectively civil war of seperation results with the EU taking sides against the Russian population.

Commendable effort to appear even-handed, but I can't quite work out whether you are either equating or ignoring the morality of Russian methods of influence to those of the EU/West.

Ideally it's left to the people of the Ukraine to decide on in free/democratic ways. Now, let's see, which of the EU/Russia has had a problem accepting that...?

I'm guessing that 'democratic decision' in this case that the Brits have in mind isn't going to be on the same lines as that in Northern Ireland.Where the army declared the border first and then the democratic majority was based only on that of the population within that border.

It boils down to this: your argument is that the Russian ends (continued influence over neighbouring states) justifies the means (arming thuggish proxies who shoot first and ask questions later).

And when I want to address the morality of the current actions of the participants, you point at some bit of history and say "well, just look at what the Brits did over there!"

Given that nearly 300 people - people who had SFA to do with any of the Ukraine/NI/GB decisions - have just been killed, this is pretty shoddy.

[ATG]

XJ Flyer said:

As for Poland yes Poland is now richer at our expense.

It isn't a zero sum game. We benefit and Poland benefits.

Failure to recognise that and being stuck with a 19th century view of "spheres of influence" is at the heart of Russia's disastrously foreign policy too.

[Pistom]

There seems to be a lot of noise here and some interesting argument but certainly lots of petty bickering, much which comes down to personal opinion.

If this aircraft was shot down by accident which based on the limited information presented to me appears to be the case, it is just an unfortunate incident. It's the result of a number of factors coming together that has resulted in a small number of people coming to an untimely death under unfortunate circumstances.

No amount of argument, speculation, conjecture or examination of events is going to change what has happened.

I feel sympathy for the poor families who have lost loved ones and can only hope that those who died, did so speedily without suffering.

[-DeaDLocK-]

Great op-ed on the culpability of the airline:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/07/19/opinion/malay...

"The truth is that air transportation, like most other modern systems, could not operate if it fortified itself against every conceivable peril."

[fido]

Pistom said:

If this aircraft was shot down by accident which based on the limited information presented to me appears to be the case, it is just an unfortunate incident. It's the result of a number of factors coming together that has resulted in a small number of people coming to an untimely death under unfortunate circumstances.

It all depends on your definition of accident. If the rebels fired on an aircraft a) with the capability supplied by Russia but b) without the ability to determine if it was a civilian airliner then is this an accident, is it still an accident? There were other civilian aircraft operating in the area at that altitude. Presumably the rebels could establish the target's altitude. I just cannot see how it can be determined as an accident in this situation.

[anonymous-user]

-DeaDLocK- said:

Great op-ed on the culpability of the airline:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/07/19/opinion/malay...

"The truth is that air transportation, like most other modern systems, could not operate if it fortified itself against every conceivable peril."

look at the shipping container ships near Somalia, they still run.

I also not a lot of flight go over Afghanistan, Iran etc, would people boycott airlines because of this, no.

It is great to look back in hindsight and blame things, but the airline was never culpable, it is the people who fired the missle..

[Eric Mc]

They meant to shoot down an aeroplane.

They didn't mean to shoot down a Malaysian airliner.

[EskimoArapaho]

Pistom said:

If this aircraft was shot down by accident which based on the limited information presented to me appears to be the case, it is just an unfortunate incident.

The plane was not shot down by accident. It was misidentified by trigger-happy scumbags and shot down deliberately.

Putting it into some "just an unfortunate incident" category is not the best way to proceed.

For starters, there will be war zones in the future, and at the very least it would be useful if future 'freedom fighters' with deadly weaponry thought twice before pressing the trigger just because there's a distant contrail in their sights.

[Eric Mc]

EskimoArapaho said:

it would be useful if future 'freedom fighters' with deadly weaponry thought twice before pressing the trigger just because there's a distant contrail in their sights.

Do you think that is a realistic scenario?