Malaysian Airlines 777 down on Ukraine / Russia Border?

[Octoposse]

JensenA said:

. . . it is entirely up to the Ukraininan government and people to decide wether or not to join the EU.

Quite so. And the answer was "no". So we encouraged regime change, and the rest is, as they say, history . . .

[Octoposse]

XJ Flyer said:

Which in 'this' case would obviously translate as an agreement between the Ukrainian and Russian governments for the partition of Ukraine.Which of course doesn't suit the EU expansionist agenda.

Russia isn't even after partition (if it was, it would have inserted 'peacekeepers' a few months ago) - a negotiated settlement with a figleaf federal solution that could be sold at home as protecting the rights of the Russian speaking minority would be fine.

The conflict has been sustained by outsiders (UK, EU, US) to make Russia pay a price for Crimea and prevent the whole thing looking like a stunning Putin victory.

[XJ Flyer]

Octoposse said:

XJ Flyer said:

Which in 'this' case would obviously translate as an agreement between the Ukrainian and Russian governments for the partition of Ukraine.Which of course doesn't suit the EU expansionist agenda.

Russia isn't even after partition (if it was, it would have inserted 'peacekeepers' a few months ago) - a negotiated settlement with a figleaf federal solution that could be sold at home as protecting the rights of the Russian speaking minority would be fine.

The conflict has been sustained by outsiders (UK, EU, US) to make Russia pay a price for Crimea and prevent the whole thing looking like a stunning Putin victory.

Logically the reasoning for the Ukraine v Russian dispute/issues in Crimea also apply in the case of those areas of Eastern Ukraine which are currently subject to similar dispute between the two sides.Partition based on similar reasoning as that which was applied in Ireland seems the only logical way to guarantee a peaceful solution which would seperate the two sides and stop them fighting.Which is the most important thing in trying to stabilise the East/West balance and relationship in the region.

As for the UK position at least there's no way that the glaring difference between it's ( correct ) policy in Ireland,as opposed to it's policy in Ukraine,can possibly be justified.

[Rocksteadyeddie]

Scuffers said:

Rocksteadyeddie said:

Beyond Rational said:

Maybe I've missed something, but how is firing missiles from one country into another in order to destroy the armed troops of that nation, not an act of war?

Or sending special forces in to "secure" an area...

We'd do well to stay well away from this fast emerging st-show.

not really not.

IF the SAS/SBS etc go in it woul dbe with the approval of Ukraine, so no invasion etc.

now, if they cross the border to russia, that's a different subject.

personally, I think it would be good to have enough troops on the ground to secure the area with enough air cover to prevent attack from outside, and I can;t see this being that controversial.

if russia want to then attack them, that's a whole different matter

Why do we want "troops on the ground" in an area of little or no strategic interest to us, but which is of significant strategic interest to Russia?

[Grandad7184]

Looks like Europe will test Russia with 2 large military exercises late this year in Poland. The main area is very close to the Russian border.

the 1st is US led then the second is a NATO ex

[tenpenceshort]

Grandad7184 said:

Looks like Europe will test Russia with 2 large military exercises late this year in Poland. The main area is very close to the Russian border.

the 1st is US led then the second is a NATO ex

Wow! I bet Russia is soiling its pants in anticipation.

[Grandad7184]

Putin will have a few bad dreams about it I suspect

[Pat H]

tenpenceshort said:

Grandad7184 said:

Looks like Europe will test Russia with 2 large military exercises late this year in Poland. The main area is very close to the Russian border.

the 1st is US led then the second is a NATO ex

Wow! I bet Russia is soiling its pants in anticipation.

Just so long as it isn't Able Archer all over again...

[Grandad7184]

Black Eagle and sabre junction according to sky news

[lamboman100]

http://news.uk.msn.com/plane-was-punctured-by-shra...

[Boydie88]

Following liveuamap.com, it would seem the Russian supporters and Russia's shelling of Ukraine are killing as many if not more civilians than Israel yet it seems to be getting no coverage on international news.
UN should have troops protecting that crash site and any move by Russia and or it's supporters to claim control of it should been seen as an international act of war.

[Puggit]

Daily Mail is indicating the Russians have lost control of the crash site - interesting that Ukraine has felt the need to claim that land back!

They also have pictures of 'pro-Russian rebels' guarding the road to the crash site who look distinctly professional to my untrained eye:

[MrBrightSi]

Puggit said:

interesting that Ukraine has felt the need to claim that land back!

Both sides considered this a "no mans land" almost, it was on the front lines of the conflict pretty much and with a lot of the footage from various sources showing them to be looting almost everything from the crash site, i'd imagine it'd be high on the list of things to stop the Ukraine on the whole looking barbaric.

[rich85uk]

Boydie88 said:

UN should have troops protecting that crash site and any move by Russia and or it's supporters to claim control of it should been seen as an international act of war.

In theory your right, but that is probably 1 step away from a full scare war between Russian and UN/NATO war

[irocfan]

rich85uk said:

Boydie88 said:

UN should have troops protecting that crash site and any move by Russia and or it's supporters to claim control of it should been seen as an international act of war.

In theory your right, but that is probably 1 step away from a full scare war between Russian and UN/NATO war

makes me glad there aren't a lot of politicians on PH since a lot of peeps on here seem quite bellicose

[EskimoArapaho]

irocfan said:

makes me glad there aren't a lot of politicians on PH since a lot of peeps on here seem quite bellicose

Agreed. I blame all of the "frozen sausage" posts.

[B17NNS]

irocfan said:

bellicose

Good word

[petrolsniffer]

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/us-russia-violated-... banging on that drum.

[Boydie88]

irocfan said:

makes me glad there aren't a lot of politicians on PH since a lot of peeps on here seem quite bellicose

So the world should just watch as Russia invades Ukraine, murdering 1000s of civilians whilst doing so and preventing a proper investigation into the downing of a commercial airliner? Where does it stop? Will Putin be happy when he has annexed the whole country?

The world is a pretty fked up place at the moment and the inaction of the UN/NATO speaks volumes.

[irocfan]

Boydie88 said:

irocfan said:

makes me glad there aren't a lot of politicians on PH since a lot of peeps on here seem quite bellicose

So the world should just watch as Russia invades Ukraine, murdering 1000s of civilians whilst doing so and preventing a proper investigation into the downing of a commercial airliner? Where does it stop? Will Putin be happy when he has annexed the whole country?

The world is a pretty fked up place at the moment and the inaction of the UN/NATO speaks volumes.

and seeing that NATO/EU supported the overthrow of a regime (no matter how tasteless/corrupt) because it suited their ends you're ok with?