General consensus on long interval oil changes.
Discussion
St John Smythe said:
DKS said:
I dunno. Are these people belittling people for changing the oil too often the same people who are moaning about their engines using a litre every 1k miles or so?
For me, the engine should be treated as best as you can, not down to whether it's under warranty, or you're going to sell it to a friend or whatever. That's a NIMBY attitude.
I change mine around 4k or annually. But then all my cars have outlived their expected lifespan (14 to 26 years) and in some cases mileages (120k to 224k) and some are used well outside their design specs, so I don't think the recommendations really apply now.
I guess you could say the same for posters that are 'belittling' the manufacturers for their service schedules For me, the engine should be treated as best as you can, not down to whether it's under warranty, or you're going to sell it to a friend or whatever. That's a NIMBY attitude.
I change mine around 4k or annually. But then all my cars have outlived their expected lifespan (14 to 26 years) and in some cases mileages (120k to 224k) and some are used well outside their design specs, so I don't think the recommendations really apply now.
. Seeing as they designed, developed and produced the cars in question, I think they are probably better placed to advise us than a bunch of blokes on the internet.VW 1.8T engines are long life, but are known for blocking their oil pickups with carbon causing terminal engine failure. Thankfully the "blokes on the internet" encourage people to drop the sumps and clean out the strainer before this happens at ~100k miles
Ford have no inlet manifold inspection on the early 2000s duratec engines, but thankfully a "bunch of blokes on the internet" know that the swirl flaps wear their bushes and fall into the engine causing terminal failure, and advise people how to diagnose and fix the problem before their engines get killed at ~100k miles.
But obviously the manufacturers who designed, developed and produced the engines know best and are committed to helping the owners with the best possible support......
St John Smythe said:
Qwert1e said:
IMO unless the thing's glowing hot after a serious blast it's not going to come to any harm these days. Most people slow down for at least a few minutes before they park and switch off, which gives the turbo time to cool a bit. Saab must have been turbo-charging their engines for 30 years but there's no sign they disintegrate every 10 minutes.
Good point!ILoveMondeo said:
Also the 20 minutes spent cocking about with s
tty software trying to tell the onboard computer it's had a service!
Depend on engine but my audi takes 10 litres of the good stuff too, not cheap.
I've done well over 65k in 22 months with 18-20k service intervals (just do what the car tells me, no clue how it works it out) and no horror stories. Couple of thousand to go till next service!
That is a pretty beastly engine though surely? Me and a friend services his FN2 Civic Type R at the weekend and it swallowed about 4.5 litres of the good stuff, he changes it yearly regardless of mileage, which is never vast, in fact I borrow the car on occasion (or we do a weekend swap for my RS 200 Clio/Volvo V40) and I have probably done more miles in the Civic this year than he has as he is always working away, tty software trying to tell the onboard computer it's had a service! Depend on engine but my audi takes 10 litres of the good stuff too, not cheap.
I've done well over 65k in 22 months with 18-20k service intervals (just do what the car tells me, no clue how it works it out) and no horror stories. Couple of thousand to go till next service!
My V40 is done to the schedule, at the risk of sounding a bit blaze, it is leased anyway, but I do keep an eye on it and if it needs a splash it'll get it.
The Clio is mine all mine, I bought it in September 2013 and it has only done about 3000 miles since, I'm using it to introduce myself to track driving and I have done four sessions so far, I change the oil after every track day.
Mave said:
Alfa cambelt interval on the Fiat based twinspark engines was 72K miles. Lots of cambelts failed at less than 50K miles. It must have been 5 years before they reduced the interval to 36K miles. It was "a bunch of blokes on the internet" that brought the issue to people's attention, saving a lot of owners from knackered engines in the interim 5 years.
VW 1.8T engines are long life, but are known for blocking their oil pickups with carbon causing terminal engine failure. Thankfully the "blokes on the internet" encourage people to drop the sumps and clean out the strainer before this happens at ~100k miles
Ford have no inlet manifold inspection on the early 2000s duratec engines, but thankfully a "bunch of blokes on the internet" know that the swirl flaps wear their bushes and fall into the engine causing terminal failure, and advise people how to diagnose and fix the problem before their engines get killed at ~100k miles.
But obviously the manufacturers who designed, developed and produced the engines know best and are committed to helping the owners with the best possible support......
In the same vein......VW 1.8T engines are long life, but are known for blocking their oil pickups with carbon causing terminal engine failure. Thankfully the "blokes on the internet" encourage people to drop the sumps and clean out the strainer before this happens at ~100k miles
Ford have no inlet manifold inspection on the early 2000s duratec engines, but thankfully a "bunch of blokes on the internet" know that the swirl flaps wear their bushes and fall into the engine causing terminal failure, and advise people how to diagnose and fix the problem before their engines get killed at ~100k miles.
But obviously the manufacturers who designed, developed and produced the engines know best and are committed to helping the owners with the best possible support......
Jaguar and Mercedes both released models with " sealed for life " gearboxes.....but only until it became apparent that they had to unseal them due to unreliability caused by, guess what, lack of ability to run forever on old oil!
And Ford convinced themselves that the CVH engine could run to 36k miles before the cambelt needed replacing. The main dealer I worked at saw them in with as little as 7k miles on from new, with the valves bent due to snapped belts.
Sadly, there was no " bunch of blokes on the internet " to point out Fords folly in this matter, as the internet wasn't really up to speed then. Still, blind faith in the manufacturers should see the smart people right.
TVR1 said:
iva cosworth said:
£149 seems excessive to change the oil.
Why? Or do you think an hours labour, oil and filter should be supplied free of charge?Depends on the car obviously, but no reason why any oil change on a typical family car should cost much more than £75-£100...it's not rocket science.
Of course, depends on the mark up on the oil the garage wish to charge.
Wacky Racer said:
TVR1 said:
iva cosworth said:
£149 seems excessive to change the oil.
Why? Or do you think an hours labour, oil and filter should be supplied free of charge?Depends on the car obviously, but no reason why any oil change on a typical family car should cost much more than £75-£100...it's not rocket science.
Of course, depends on the mark up on the oil the garage wish to charge.
And Fancy dealership in every one horse town of
Even the most humble marques
There is one basic fact.
If you change your engine oil more frequently it is better for your engine.
Modern oil last a lot better than in day's gone by... but as good as modern oil is, it's still better to change more frequently than not.
I wouldn't wait past 5-6 thousand miles, especially if a lot of city driving is involved.
If you change your engine oil more frequently it is better for your engine.
Modern oil last a lot better than in day's gone by... but as good as modern oil is, it's still better to change more frequently than not.
I wouldn't wait past 5-6 thousand miles, especially if a lot of city driving is involved.
Heaveho said:
Mave said:
Alfa cambelt interval on the Fiat based twinspark engines was 72K miles. Lots of cambelts failed at less than 50K miles. It must have been 5 years before they reduced the interval to 36K miles. It was "a bunch of blokes on the internet" that brought the issue to people's attention, saving a lot of owners from knackered engines in the interim 5 years.
VW 1.8T engines are long life, but are known for blocking their oil pickups with carbon causing terminal engine failure. Thankfully the "blokes on the internet" encourage people to drop the sumps and clean out the strainer before this happens at ~100k miles
Ford have no inlet manifold inspection on the early 2000s duratec engines, but thankfully a "bunch of blokes on the internet" know that the swirl flaps wear their bushes and fall into the engine causing terminal failure, and advise people how to diagnose and fix the problem before their engines get killed at ~100k miles.
But obviously the manufacturers who designed, developed and produced the engines know best and are committed to helping the owners with the best possible support......
In the same vein......VW 1.8T engines are long life, but are known for blocking their oil pickups with carbon causing terminal engine failure. Thankfully the "blokes on the internet" encourage people to drop the sumps and clean out the strainer before this happens at ~100k miles
Ford have no inlet manifold inspection on the early 2000s duratec engines, but thankfully a "bunch of blokes on the internet" know that the swirl flaps wear their bushes and fall into the engine causing terminal failure, and advise people how to diagnose and fix the problem before their engines get killed at ~100k miles.
But obviously the manufacturers who designed, developed and produced the engines know best and are committed to helping the owners with the best possible support......
Jaguar and Mercedes both released models with " sealed for life " gearboxes.....but only until it became apparent that they had to unseal them due to unreliability caused by, guess what, lack of ability to run forever on old oil!
And Ford convinced themselves that the CVH engine could run to 36k miles before the cambelt needed replacing. The main dealer I worked at saw them in with as little as 7k miles on from new, with the valves bent due to snapped belts.
Sadly, there was no " bunch of blokes on the internet " to point out Fords folly in this matter, as the internet wasn't really up to speed then. Still, blind faith in the manufacturers should see the smart people right.
In one of those examples you have quoted is technically nothing to do with either manufacturer, the gearbox is the Jaguar and Mercedes is built by ZF, so they will be going by what ZF say.
Which brings us onto 'sealed for life', which does not mean sealed for life, what it actually means is sealed for design life. They will have designed the gearbox to last for and/or X years, Y thousand miles , Z hours. After that is it beyond it's life.
Honda for example design to, or used to 10 years ago, a 10 years and/or 150k miles life. After that you are own your own because the manufacturer will have never tested beyond that.
Megaflow said:
That's five examples where the manufacturers possibly got it wrong, now lets consider all the other parts on those cars they calculated right, and all the other cars on the road that don't have issues.
In one of those examples you have quoted is technically nothing to do with either manufacturer, the gearbox is the Jaguar and Mercedes is built by ZF, so they will be going by what ZF say.
Which brings us onto 'sealed for life', which does not mean sealed for life, what it actually means is sealed for design life. They will have designed the gearbox to last for and/or X years, Y thousand miles , Z hours. After that is it beyond it's life.
Honda for example design to, or used to 10 years ago, a 10 years and/or 150k miles life. After that you are own your own because the manufacturer will have never tested beyond that.
The above 5 examples were being used to make the point to a previous poster that blindly accepting manufacturers claims isn't always going to result in trouble free motoring......nothing you've said changes the fact that has shown to be accurate.In one of those examples you have quoted is technically nothing to do with either manufacturer, the gearbox is the Jaguar and Mercedes is built by ZF, so they will be going by what ZF say.
Which brings us onto 'sealed for life', which does not mean sealed for life, what it actually means is sealed for design life. They will have designed the gearbox to last for and/or X years, Y thousand miles , Z hours. After that is it beyond it's life.
Honda for example design to, or used to 10 years ago, a 10 years and/or 150k miles life. After that you are own your own because the manufacturer will have never tested beyond that.
Megaflow said:
That's five examples where the manufacturers possibly got it wrong, now lets consider all the other parts on those cars they calculated right, and all the other cars on the road that don't have issues.
But after they obviously got it wrong, did the manufacturer a) fix the problem or b) ignore the problem? So it's not 5 individual technical problems, it's 5 manufacturers having a policy to leave customers exposed to a known issue rather than ammend service schedules.Megaflow said:
Honda for example design to, or used to 10 years ago, a 10 years and/or 150k miles life. After that you are own your own because the manufacturer will have never tested beyond that.
So the bloke on the internet who is maintaining cars older than 10 years may in fact have more experience than the manufacturer!Megaflow said:
In one of those examples you have quoted is technically nothing to do with either manufacturer, the gearbox is the Jaguar and Mercedes is built by ZF, so they will be going by what ZF say.
Which brings us onto 'sealed for life', which does not mean sealed for life, what it actually means is sealed for design life. They will have designed the gearbox to last for and/or X years, Y thousand miles , Z hours. After that is it beyond it's life.
Honda for example design to, or used to 10 years ago, a 10 years and/or 150k miles life. After that you are own your own because the manufacturer will have never tested beyond that.
I doubt that's strictly true. Ask BMW about their automatics then ask ZF and you'll get two different answers.Which brings us onto 'sealed for life', which does not mean sealed for life, what it actually means is sealed for design life. They will have designed the gearbox to last for and/or X years, Y thousand miles , Z hours. After that is it beyond it's life.
Honda for example design to, or used to 10 years ago, a 10 years and/or 150k miles life. After that you are own your own because the manufacturer will have never tested beyond that.
When I was doing 20k a year, I changed the oil every 9 months give or take. Saab say the engine could do 18k between oil changes, but there was no way I was leaving it that long.
People say that regular oil changes are vital to keeping a engine running smoothly, but I don't completely buy into that. I had a fair few issues on my Saab and none of them were related to me changing the oil on a regular basis.
The Discovery 3 has a whole host of issues and as far as I'm aware the common ones have nothing to do with oil changes. Bushes and suspension arms aren't part of a service schedule, yet they still fail.
Maybe in the 60s and 70s when engines were much more basic, oil changes were essential, but now its the associated electronics/EGR/DPF than cause the issues.
If your engine siezes because there isn't any oil in it, you've been an idiot for not checking it
People say that regular oil changes are vital to keeping a engine running smoothly, but I don't completely buy into that. I had a fair few issues on my Saab and none of them were related to me changing the oil on a regular basis.
The Discovery 3 has a whole host of issues and as far as I'm aware the common ones have nothing to do with oil changes. Bushes and suspension arms aren't part of a service schedule, yet they still fail.
Maybe in the 60s and 70s when engines were much more basic, oil changes were essential, but now its the associated electronics/EGR/DPF than cause the issues.
If your engine siezes because there isn't any oil in it, you've been an idiot for not checking it
A rather obvious point seems to have been missed by many:
- The manufacturer will specify the longest service intervals they can whilst maintaining an acceptable (non-zero) failure rate during the warranty period (normally 3-7 years or 50-100k). They don't care what happens after that.
- I buy cars long after the warranty has expired and expect them to last at least 20yrs and 300k without major issues
- My acceptable failure rate for my car is zero
Ten miles each way, in stop start traffic? I would probably stick to half intervals. The max intervals are for those people who sit along the motorway and spend comparitivly little time each day during the cold-start phase (engine spends much, much more time at full temp)
It cant hurt to change more often, but it can hurt to change less often
It cant hurt to change more often, but it can hurt to change less often
bakerstreet said:
When I was doing 20k a year, I changed the oil every 9 months give or take. Saab say the engine could do 18k between oil changes, but there was no way I was leaving it that long.
People say that regular oil changes are vital to keeping a engine running smoothly, but I don't completely buy into that. I had a fair few issues on my Saab and none of them were related to me changing the oil on a regular basis.
The Discovery 3 has a whole host of issues and as far as I'm aware the common ones have nothing to do with oil changes. Bushes and suspension arms aren't part of a service schedule, yet they still fail.
Maybe in the 60s and 70s when engines were much more basic, oil changes were essential, but now its the associated electronics/EGR/DPF than cause the issues.
If your engine siezes because there isn't any oil in it, you've been an idiot for not checking it
It isn't about engines seizing, it's about carbon deposits/sludge, turbos etc.People say that regular oil changes are vital to keeping a engine running smoothly, but I don't completely buy into that. I had a fair few issues on my Saab and none of them were related to me changing the oil on a regular basis.
The Discovery 3 has a whole host of issues and as far as I'm aware the common ones have nothing to do with oil changes. Bushes and suspension arms aren't part of a service schedule, yet they still fail.
Maybe in the 60s and 70s when engines were much more basic, oil changes were essential, but now its the associated electronics/EGR/DPF than cause the issues.
If your engine siezes because there isn't any oil in it, you've been an idiot for not checking it
CURRYBUM - great post.
(unfortunately?) we live in a world of reliable cars where few people check the oil between services. I wonder how many engine problems that do occur do so because of low oil levels at some time in the car's history?
In other words, if a car is serviced every 25k but never has low oil would it most likely run fine beyond 250k? And when engines do fail have they had some mistreatment in the past? (low oil, WOT on start-up etc)
(unfortunately?) we live in a world of reliable cars where few people check the oil between services. I wonder how many engine problems that do occur do so because of low oil levels at some time in the car's history?
In other words, if a car is serviced every 25k but never has low oil would it most likely run fine beyond 250k? And when engines do fail have they had some mistreatment in the past? (low oil, WOT on start-up etc)
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