General consensus on long interval oil changes.
Discussion
St John Smythe said:
TheEnd said:
...perpetuated by a small minority, and unknown to the general public.
Quite! I've lost count on the amount of cars I've owned that haven't experienced issues reported as 'they all do that' on the internet.Personally, I've discovered a seized cambelt tensioner on my Alfa 12k miles before the service interval; found the inlet swirl flap just about hanging onto a seriously worn inlet manifold body on my Mondeo; and experienced a dealer serviced, sympathetically driven A6 eat itself due to oil blockage. All known on the internet, but unknown to the general public.
As a result, my confidence in OEM development testing and service schedules is somewhat cynical.
Without reading the whole thread I went from a Renault Clio 1.8 16v with changes every 6k miles to a r56 Mini Cooper s who state 2 year interval.
Mini also state it is acceptable to use 1 litre of oil very thousand miles so on that basis your engine would be depleted of oil rather soon.
I check often and change annually.
Mini also state it is acceptable to use 1 litre of oil very thousand miles so on that basis your engine would be depleted of oil rather soon.
I check often and change annually.
TREMAiNE said:
nottyash said:
TREMAiNE said:
Handbook says every 3,000 miles.
So I get it done every 3,000 mile.
Its not a long interval oil change though is it?So I get it done every 3,000 mile.
In my defence, I'm mighty tired and was talking to a colleague at the same time.
I remember most 80s turbo stuff being 3k miles. Oil technology is a lot better though now
Heaveho said:
Qwert1e said:
That's the meat and drink of it. A modern synthetic is virtually indestructible compared with old-fashioned oils.
But engines are a lot harder on it.Heaveho said:
Qwert1e said:
That's the meat and drink of it. A modern synthetic is virtually indestructible compared with old-fashioned oils.
But engines are a lot harder on it.A modern engine will run the oil hotter for longer, but it will contaminate the oil with much less particulate, soot, fuel, etc.
A question for those who think oil hasn't improved by much and frequent oil changes are still required, what do you consider a maximum oil temperature to be?
From a BMW specialist
bmw specialist said:
A Word about Oil Services...
All name brand oils produced today are quality products compared to that which was available years ago. Synthetic oils were borne out of our national defense program where vehicles needed to operate under extreme conditions with infrequent service. After all, Tanks & Hummers needed to start & run reliably in both the Arctic, as well as in the Sahara. Hence synthetics were developed to offer better cold start & hot weather running protection relative to conventional motor oils. Synthetic oil service intervals could also be extended, as the oils were more stable & resisted breaking down. Your BMW will run on either oil. The two oils are also able to be mixed if you need to top one off with the other in a pinch.
oil_001
At Schneller, we follow BMWs recommendations when selecting an oil for your car. If BMW specifies a synthetic oil for your vehicle, then that is what we‘ll use. We'll also recommend synthetic oil if your vehicle experiences extreme use, for example racing, or if your BMW is equipped with an exotic BMW Motorsport engine.
The 15,000 Mile Oil Change
In our opinion, changing your oil every 2500-3000 miles is a WASTE of money & resources. The Quick Lube Industry however, has done a great job MARKETING everyone into believing that it is mechanically necessary. They are after all sponsored by the Oil Industry, and in the business of selling oil.
We recommend oil services based on a number of factors:
Driving Style
Synthetic vs. Conventional Oil
Time of Year
Visual Condition of Oil.
In addition to lubricating the moving parts within your engine, oil also serves to hold in suspension water, dirt & metal shavings that are too small for the filter to capture. Like a glass of milk, there's a certain amount of "chocolate" (in the case of engine oil, contaminants) that you can add before a saturation point is reached & the "chocolate", or in the case of engine oil, contaminants, begin to settle out. These sediments form a thick tar like sludge that will clog oil passages & are generally not good for your engine. Water vapor accumulation (water is a byproduct of combustion) is also detrimental to the engine as water is a poor lubricant, promotes rust & will freeze up crank case ventilation systems in cold weather resulting in engine failures.
What do we think of the 15,000 mile oil service?
We simply think the service interval is too long for a number of reasons.
First, if a car is only driven 5000 miles a year, that means that no one will have examined that vehicle in 3 years. That's just too long for a complicated machine to travel without some looking after. Imagine not having a physical or going to the dentist for 3 years because your life has been somewhat inactive!
Secondly, long service intervals "suggest" that you only need to add gas and drive. One customer drove his car for an entire year & at 15,000 miles finally came in for an oil service. The engine was ticking loudly and contained only one of the seven quarts of oil that the engine required. Where did all the oil go? As engines are run, they will consume (burn) some oil. Because of the extended oil service, he never even thought to check his oil level. Regardless of oil type & oil service interval, engines do consume oil & the level needs to be periodically checked.
Thirdly, long oil service intervals promote internal sludge & water build up. We've already replaced a number of engines that were on this extended oil service program. The first (a 2001 X5) had traveled only 22,000 miles when the crankcase breather system froze in cold weather causing catastrophic engine failure. The second (a 2000 330i) consumed much of its oil as the crankcase breather was clogged with sludge forcing the oil back into the intake where it was consumed by the engine. Ultimately the car ran out of oil and required an engine replacement. We've been able to avert disaster on a large number of others by stepping up the oil service interval to 7000 miles & replacing clogged crankcase ventilation systems.
So what does Schneller recommend as an appropriate oil service interval?
Based on our experience, we recommend the following:
Synthetic Oil, once every 7000 miles or Every 6 months
Conventional Oil, once every 4500 miles or Every 4 Months
A consistent engine oil service schedule will keep engine oil clean and free of crankcase water build up. Moreover, it provides the opportunity for one of our Technicians to spot a potential problem elsewhere on your car before it happens. Additionally, seasonal oil services will allow us to match engine oil weights according to ambient temperatures thereby offering better engine protection & easier winter starts.
The Importance of Visually Inspecting Your Oil
If you're not sure when to change your oil, remove your dip stick & run the tip across your finger. If you can still see your finger through the oil, then it's not saturated with dirt & probably still OK. If it looks muddy, it probably is, & needs to be changed. This visual method works well in warmer climates where engines warm up quicker and they're able to burn off trapped water vapor.
If you live in a colder climate, drive your car less than 10,000 miles a year, or if you only drive for short distances (less than 20 minutes after each start) then you're in danger of water build up in your crankcase & should change your oil based on a time schedule, rather than a mileage schedule. This is particularly important in the late fall & through the winter months when trapped water vapor can freeze inside your engine. Unfortunately, the simple technique of examining your oil may become a thing of the past as BMW has eliminated oil dipsticks from many of their newer engines & replaced them with electrical oil level senders. To get a sense of what the oil looks like, one can still however, retrieve some oil from the underside of the oil filler cap located on the engine's valve cover.
http://www.schnellerbmw.com/index.php/Our-Automotive-Services/A-Word-about-Oil-Services.htmlAll name brand oils produced today are quality products compared to that which was available years ago. Synthetic oils were borne out of our national defense program where vehicles needed to operate under extreme conditions with infrequent service. After all, Tanks & Hummers needed to start & run reliably in both the Arctic, as well as in the Sahara. Hence synthetics were developed to offer better cold start & hot weather running protection relative to conventional motor oils. Synthetic oil service intervals could also be extended, as the oils were more stable & resisted breaking down. Your BMW will run on either oil. The two oils are also able to be mixed if you need to top one off with the other in a pinch.
oil_001
At Schneller, we follow BMWs recommendations when selecting an oil for your car. If BMW specifies a synthetic oil for your vehicle, then that is what we‘ll use. We'll also recommend synthetic oil if your vehicle experiences extreme use, for example racing, or if your BMW is equipped with an exotic BMW Motorsport engine.
The 15,000 Mile Oil Change
In our opinion, changing your oil every 2500-3000 miles is a WASTE of money & resources. The Quick Lube Industry however, has done a great job MARKETING everyone into believing that it is mechanically necessary. They are after all sponsored by the Oil Industry, and in the business of selling oil.
We recommend oil services based on a number of factors:
Driving Style
Synthetic vs. Conventional Oil
Time of Year
Visual Condition of Oil.
In addition to lubricating the moving parts within your engine, oil also serves to hold in suspension water, dirt & metal shavings that are too small for the filter to capture. Like a glass of milk, there's a certain amount of "chocolate" (in the case of engine oil, contaminants) that you can add before a saturation point is reached & the "chocolate", or in the case of engine oil, contaminants, begin to settle out. These sediments form a thick tar like sludge that will clog oil passages & are generally not good for your engine. Water vapor accumulation (water is a byproduct of combustion) is also detrimental to the engine as water is a poor lubricant, promotes rust & will freeze up crank case ventilation systems in cold weather resulting in engine failures.
What do we think of the 15,000 mile oil service?
We simply think the service interval is too long for a number of reasons.
First, if a car is only driven 5000 miles a year, that means that no one will have examined that vehicle in 3 years. That's just too long for a complicated machine to travel without some looking after. Imagine not having a physical or going to the dentist for 3 years because your life has been somewhat inactive!
Secondly, long service intervals "suggest" that you only need to add gas and drive. One customer drove his car for an entire year & at 15,000 miles finally came in for an oil service. The engine was ticking loudly and contained only one of the seven quarts of oil that the engine required. Where did all the oil go? As engines are run, they will consume (burn) some oil. Because of the extended oil service, he never even thought to check his oil level. Regardless of oil type & oil service interval, engines do consume oil & the level needs to be periodically checked.
Thirdly, long oil service intervals promote internal sludge & water build up. We've already replaced a number of engines that were on this extended oil service program. The first (a 2001 X5) had traveled only 22,000 miles when the crankcase breather system froze in cold weather causing catastrophic engine failure. The second (a 2000 330i) consumed much of its oil as the crankcase breather was clogged with sludge forcing the oil back into the intake where it was consumed by the engine. Ultimately the car ran out of oil and required an engine replacement. We've been able to avert disaster on a large number of others by stepping up the oil service interval to 7000 miles & replacing clogged crankcase ventilation systems.
So what does Schneller recommend as an appropriate oil service interval?
Based on our experience, we recommend the following:
Synthetic Oil, once every 7000 miles or Every 6 months
Conventional Oil, once every 4500 miles or Every 4 Months
A consistent engine oil service schedule will keep engine oil clean and free of crankcase water build up. Moreover, it provides the opportunity for one of our Technicians to spot a potential problem elsewhere on your car before it happens. Additionally, seasonal oil services will allow us to match engine oil weights according to ambient temperatures thereby offering better engine protection & easier winter starts.
The Importance of Visually Inspecting Your Oil
If you're not sure when to change your oil, remove your dip stick & run the tip across your finger. If you can still see your finger through the oil, then it's not saturated with dirt & probably still OK. If it looks muddy, it probably is, & needs to be changed. This visual method works well in warmer climates where engines warm up quicker and they're able to burn off trapped water vapor.
If you live in a colder climate, drive your car less than 10,000 miles a year, or if you only drive for short distances (less than 20 minutes after each start) then you're in danger of water build up in your crankcase & should change your oil based on a time schedule, rather than a mileage schedule. This is particularly important in the late fall & through the winter months when trapped water vapor can freeze inside your engine. Unfortunately, the simple technique of examining your oil may become a thing of the past as BMW has eliminated oil dipsticks from many of their newer engines & replaced them with electrical oil level senders. To get a sense of what the oil looks like, one can still however, retrieve some oil from the underside of the oil filler cap located on the engine's valve cover.
currybum said:
Who presumably makes a living from doing oil changes...and has based their recommendation to cut the oil service in half on just two engines they have seen.
And backed it up with reasons based on a couple of idiotic things a couple of people have done that are vaguely related to the long changes. Water buildup CAN be an issue for cars that do only short journeys where the oil isn't hot enough for long enough to get rid of it but I guess that's why the service indicator/schedule takes into account mileage, engine hours and time since last service.skyrover said:
From a BMW specialist
The comment about filters is interesting - on Mercs on long-life servicing the dealers are supposed to use a fleece filter rather than a paper one but they never do.bmw specialist said:
In addition to lubricating the moving parts within your engine, oil also serves to hold in suspension water, dirt & metal shavings that are too small for the filter to capture.
Nobby Diesel said:
Heaveho said:
Well' I'm clearly going to be in the minority, but I change oil and filter on my stuff at 5k.......I'm not happy running turbo'd stuff for longer than that, I think the temperatures generated give oil a harder life, and oil's cheaper than engines.
Agree - a good oil is a cheap mechanic.Qwert1e said:
Sheepshanks said:
on Mercs on long-life servicing the dealers are supposed to use a fleece filter rather than a paper one but they never do.
I'll call you on that one. Where's your evidence,1. That they should, and
2. That they don't do what they should?
2. Indies who are ex-MB dealer mechanics.
Another thing is that for years MB dealers didn't use low-ash oil in DPF equipped cars. DPFs were an option at first to get cars into a lower tax bracket and the dealers just used the same oil as normal (despite the orange warning sticker).
I think the oils and engine tech have evolved to meet the demand for long intervals rather than the long intervals initially being driven by the tech. I say this because while most cars now run to silly mileages on 18k, 20k or even 30k intervals, some early attempts at long interval servicing were dubious at best.
I am thinking in particular of Renault and VW. 18k service intervals were heavily implicated in the raft of turbo failures affecting the Renault dCi diesels in the mid 2000s, resulting in the intervals later being dropped to 12k. The conditions attached to Longlife servicing on VW cars also became much more strict and specific, meaning fewer owners and usage patterns were deemed suitable.
Even the likes of BMW suffered with unexpectedly high incidences of turbo failures and timing chain issues on their diesels, both issues being, perhaps coincidentally, strongly linked to dirty engine oil in a more general sense.
Manufacturers should be the best placed to know what their products require, but I don't believe their interests are necessarily the same as mine, particular as a second or third owner with a car well out of warranty. They are selling cars to people who want to run them for the lowest cost and hassle, and to generally out them at three years old and buy/lease another. A 20k service interval is going to be beneficial in that case, as it means less downtime and lower maintenance costs, while being incredibly unlikely to cause any issues in the first three years.
On the other hand, I want to keep and run the car far beyond the age and mileage where the manufacturer could reasonably be expected to have any responsibility for it, and I want to do so with the lowest cost and fewest failures or breakdowns. The two sets of considerations yield completely different actions. I firmly believe when you get up to 100-150k, all other things being equal, a car given fresh oil every 10k will be a better proposition than one given fresh oil every 20k or 25k.
I am thinking in particular of Renault and VW. 18k service intervals were heavily implicated in the raft of turbo failures affecting the Renault dCi diesels in the mid 2000s, resulting in the intervals later being dropped to 12k. The conditions attached to Longlife servicing on VW cars also became much more strict and specific, meaning fewer owners and usage patterns were deemed suitable.
Even the likes of BMW suffered with unexpectedly high incidences of turbo failures and timing chain issues on their diesels, both issues being, perhaps coincidentally, strongly linked to dirty engine oil in a more general sense.
Manufacturers should be the best placed to know what their products require, but I don't believe their interests are necessarily the same as mine, particular as a second or third owner with a car well out of warranty. They are selling cars to people who want to run them for the lowest cost and hassle, and to generally out them at three years old and buy/lease another. A 20k service interval is going to be beneficial in that case, as it means less downtime and lower maintenance costs, while being incredibly unlikely to cause any issues in the first three years.
On the other hand, I want to keep and run the car far beyond the age and mileage where the manufacturer could reasonably be expected to have any responsibility for it, and I want to do so with the lowest cost and fewest failures or breakdowns. The two sets of considerations yield completely different actions. I firmly believe when you get up to 100-150k, all other things being equal, a car given fresh oil every 10k will be a better proposition than one given fresh oil every 20k or 25k.
Edited by Limpet on Thursday 24th July 15:57
[quote=Megaflow
A question for those who think oil hasn't improved by much and frequent oil changes are still required, what do you consider a maximum oil temperature to be?
[/quote]
I'd regard 130 as sensible target, 150 as fruity, 170 as needing close attention. But that assumes a well designed system.
A question for those who think oil hasn't improved by much and frequent oil changes are still required, what do you consider a maximum oil temperature to be?
[/quote]
I'd regard 130 as sensible target, 150 as fruity, 170 as needing close attention. But that assumes a well designed system.
Edited by Mave on Thursday 24th July 18:44
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