Race fuels ? Toluene ?

Race fuels ? Toluene ?

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stevieturbo

Original Poster:

17,229 posts

246 months

Monday 21st July 2014
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Any opinions ? for say a turbocharged application.

Any good, bad, should avoid ? Are they really worth paying the vast sums of money for ?

Which would be best for guaranteed results of more power, with the least amount of re-tuning ( no leaded or corrosive stuff )

It's something Ive never bothered with, but just seems everyone is using such things. So curious as to if they really are worth the extra ?

Typically what gains are possible on something making say 200hp per litre ? Or maybe more ?

Only stuff available locally at semi-sensible price is Panta. Anyone using their stuff ?

Or how would it compare to running say 20-30% Toluene ? which is fairly cheap ( again never tried it either, although a friend has recently in a VAG TFSI thingy )

Turn7

23,504 posts

220 months

Monday 21st July 2014
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Your knowledge is far greater than mine on engine stuff,but I would have thought methanol would be the bestbet as it's cooler burning.

Promod turbo cars use it.

PeterBurgess

775 posts

145 months

Monday 21st July 2014
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Hi Stevie

I cannot tell you what to expect but .......

Since the tail end of last race season we have had nothing but problems with engines getting warm on long races, lifting heads and dumping water. We have resorted to ARP head studs down at 70 lbs ft and Cometic head gaskets and are containing the problem.
Fuel makes massive difference for us.

I attach a graph showing back to back testing Tesco Momentum best fuel with CVL and Shell Nitro + with CVL, as you can see about 3 bhp more everywhere with the Shell and tolerant to a couple of degrees whereas the Tesco is within half a degree to get it spot on and safe.

We have customers using 115 Octane Sunoco...brilliant stuff and engine tolerant to 4 degrees ( this is 33% 115 and 66% Shell nitro +), straight Sunoco 102 and we have a two degree tolerance/cushion.
I think I would use the 115 1/3 to 2/3 mix and see how it goes.

We haven't used the petrol/toluene mix for many a moon.

Peter

Peter

PeterBurgess

775 posts

145 months

Monday 21st July 2014
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Hi Steve

Talk about synchronicity.... had a Morgan in today for before and after testing with different fuels. It had been filled at Classic LeMans with the 102 Superethanol, had problems on Mulsanne straight with not revving out and seemingly carb icing when backing off. I attach a graph comparing fuels, the lower solid line and dotted line (horsepower and torque) were with the 102 Superethanol, the higher dotted and solid line was with Shell Niro + with no octane booster, a significant difference, we can only conclude the engine ran hotter internally on the straight and was not a happy bunny, seems ethanol rich fuels are also more prone to carb icing frown

Peter



mighty kitten

431 posts

132 months

Monday 21st July 2014
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Haven't run my car much in hot weather this year but I put cheap gun wash in with v power 10% by volume and it definitively kills any det on track days but based on mapping on just v power , not sure on toluene content but had xylene and a few other useful ingredients .

stevieturbo

Original Poster:

17,229 posts

246 months

Monday 21st July 2014
quotequote all
The cars dont have any detonation issues at present. Ive run close to 40psi on some cars with no detonation problems, usually with water/meth at those levels with 97 RON, which is best we can get locally at the pump

That's not really the query. It's as to whether the fancy race fuels as well as giving that huge safety margin, will they also easily simply yield more power.

Safety is one aspect...but they're safe already. Could they be safer ? I guess yes.

But it's mainly the release of more power I want.

A local supplier sells Panta XS RON 115, race fuel. Supposed to be a top of the line fuel, oxygenated etc.
Some of the drifters etc use it, and obviously the guy I'd be buying it from...except he's never actually done any back to back testing with pump fuel.
They just seem to use it, chuck a lot of timing in and away they go. Seems easy for them to make power, and cool EGT's and almost impossible to see detonation ( which I find hard to believe )

Not really the sort of approach I was after...but I guess there dont seem to be any potential problems form using it.

Running pure methanol is not on the cards, nor is mixing it with the fuel, at least in the case of my own car. ( have done that before on other cars )
Water/meth injection covers that aspect anyway.

Toluene...can be bought for around £1/litre off egay. Cheaper than petrol...which makes it appealing...if it really would yield some benefits.

But other than pump fuel and a little bit of water or meth...fuels are just something Ive never experimented with. Mainly because fancy stuff costs so damn much, and anything other than 97 isnt available here anyway. So was little point worrying about it !

PeterBurgess

775 posts

145 months

Monday 21st July 2014
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Our best results with toluene in na engine was 10% toluene with 90% best quality pump fuel. We tended to have to clean the plugs quite frequently as they ran somewhat sooty in our application. So I suppose 10% toluene with 90% shell nitro + ?

No increase in na power with superdooper sunnoco 115 but only running 11.6:1 cr, need to choose fuel to suit purpose, the specialist fuel companies have different mixes for different applications and it would be well worth an mail or phone call to get some more in depth info which might obtain to your specific requirements.

Peter

Edited by PeterBurgess on Monday 21st July 21:27

SteveSlowboy

40 posts

197 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
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I've asked this question of both engine builders and dyno operaters; The consensus being that the main benefit of proper race fuels are more consistent than pump fuel, meaning you can (safely) map closer to the det limits. BUT at getting on for a fiver a litre is quite expensive!

Fo N/A engines, I was told the (power/torque)difference between high octane race fuels and a quality "Super" pump fuel is hardly measurable - unless the engine has specifically been built to suit. Even then, on the likes of 1000cc bike engines you're only talking a couple of horses.

For turbo/supercharged engines I think it's a different story - with much bigger gains if the engine has been built to suit.

stevieturbo

Original Poster:

17,229 posts

246 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
SteveSlowboy said:
I've asked this question of both engine builders and dyno operaters; The consensus being that the main benefit of proper race fuels are more consistent than pump fuel, meaning you can (safely) map closer to the det limits. BUT at getting on for a fiver a litre is quite expensive!

Fo N/A engines, I was told the (power/torque)difference between high octane race fuels and a quality "Super" pump fuel is hardly measurable - unless the engine has specifically been built to suit. Even then, on the likes of 1000cc bike engines you're only talking a couple of horses.

For turbo/supercharged engines I think it's a different story - with much bigger gains if the engine has been built to suit.
I agree it is expensive, which is why Ive never even considered it before. But for one event...why not.

But E85 seems to yield a lot more potential than pump fuel....just it's more complicated to use, and still not readily available.

Race fuels, certainly at the upper end are supposed to also yield a lot more power.

Detonation itself isnt an issue. Hell, I could just use water injection alone and never have it be a problem...it doesnt mean using other options cannot yield a lot more power. It's the very reason we use water/meth, or meth alone in that application.

Hoped there'd be more info out there.



anonymous-user

53 months

Thursday 24th July 2014
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I use Panta race fuel in a Nissan SR20 et, on the dyno it shows around 50 bhp improvement on 97 V power, follwing a remap, when first put in without the remap, it showed no real vemnet, don't ask me why I let my race engineer look after the turbo car. we get around 450 BHp from the SR20 with bigger injectors, turbo and A Haltek ECU there is more available but 450 is reliable and car is ony 628kg

stevieturbo

Original Poster:

17,229 posts

246 months

Thursday 24th July 2014
quotequote all
Berw said:
I use Panta race fuel in a Nissan SR20 et, on the dyno it shows around 50 bhp improvement on 97 V power, follwing a remap, when first put in without the remap, it showed no real vemnet, don't ask me why I let my race engineer look after the turbo car. we get around 450 BHp from the SR20 with bigger injectors, turbo and A Haltek ECU there is more available but 450 is reliable and car is ony 628kg
Which spec of fuel was it ?



Cloggie

196 posts

175 months

Thursday 24th July 2014
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In the eighties we used to use toluene to allow a higher compression ratio. But in order to really get more power and keep the plugs clean we also added benzene to speed up the flame front which was slowed down by adding toluene.
If you don’t have problems with detonation, I wouldn’t use toluene or a toluene/benzene mix (also because they are not very good for your health) but in a quest for more power use an oxygenated fuel. This may well need you to run larger injectors to make use of the extra oxygen in the combustion.