Do you still believe in good hi-fi?

[The_Burg]

TonyRPH said:

The_Burg said:

<snip>
I moved to FLAC many years ago, still have 100s of CDs but to be honest it sounds as good if not better.

I see this stated a lot - however in my own experience, I still prefer a CD, despite ripping my entire collection to flac a couple of years ago.

I've tried various DAC / media player combinations too, but CD still wins for me...

To answer the OP's original question - do I still believe in good hi-fi? Hell yes!!!

Happy to demo. Strangely the PC sound card makes a huge difference despite using SPDIF. I was sceptical too. Original media server sounded terrible, timing was totally off. No idea why it's just 1 and 0.

CD front end is a Pioneer PDS 903 stable platter, DAC Musical Fidelity 24/96 or Cambridge DAC2.

Software is VortexBox.

Old but a serious bit of kit in the day.

Amp is Exposure XX and speaker Rega Jura.

One of the plus sides is you can tweak the FLAC files, reducing the level on a modern CD by as little as 3db can stop the DAC running into clipping. CuteFtp CDClip can work wonders, i believe the writer of this software is or at least was a PH'er.

[TonyRPH]

The_Burg said:

Happy to demo. Strangely the PC sound card makes a huge difference despite using SPDIF. I was sceptical too. Original media server sounded terrible, timing was totally off. No idea why it's just 1 and 0.

I tried a PC (various sound cards and interfaces) - my best experience so far is with Logitech Duet / Touch devices.

The_Burg said:

CD front end is a Pioneer PDS 903 stable platter, DAC Musical Fidelity 24/96 or Cambridge DAC2.

CD players I currently have are; Marantz CD17 (quite modified), Kenwood DP-7090 (standard) and a Sony CDP-227ESD (standard)

The_Burg said:

Software is VortexBox.

I used Vortexbox to rip all my CDs - and subsequently found some had errors - so I built my own Linux box optimised purely for ripping.

The_Burg said:

Old but a serious bit of kit in the day.

I guess I could say the same about mine lol.

The_Burg said:

Amp is Exposure XX and speaker Rega Jura.

One of the plus sides is you can tweak the FLAC files, reducing the level on a modern CD by as little as 3db can stop the DAC running into clipping. CuteFtp CDClip can work wonders, i believe the writer of this software is or at least was a PH'er.

Yep - I think the guys name is Graham IIRC.

And yes - I have tried tweaking levels etc. in my custom box and sure, there is a difference but CD still wins lol.

I have various DACs, an old Mission DAC5 which is quite similar to the Marantz CD17 DAC / analogue stages. I did have a Cambridge DAC magic (Azur) but was left distinctly unimpressed with that. Other DACs are Chinese Ebay imports (kits) which I have built / modified myself.

Speakers are Linn Keilidh.

Amplification includes a couple of home built preamps and power amps, along with some commercial stuff - a Sony TA-F540E, JVC AX-5, NAD 2200 power amp (modified of course!!) and a few other bits and bats. I have a small room full of vintage kit collected over the years.

And yes - I have compared much of it to modern amplification - and there wasn't anything in it.

And I can't afford to spend ££££ on higher end kit (which I don't think I need anyway!).

Apologies for the long, multi quote post and the thread drift.

[The_Burg]

TonyRPH said:

The_Burg said:

Happy to demo. Strangely the PC sound card makes a huge difference despite using SPDIF. I was sceptical too. Original media server sounded terrible, timing was totally off. No idea why it's just 1 and 0.

I tried a PC (various sound cards and interfaces) - my best experience so far is with Logitech Duet / Touch devices.

The_Burg said:

CD front end is a Pioneer PDS 903 stable platter, DAC Musical Fidelity 24/96 or Cambridge DAC2.

CD players I currently have are; Marantz CD17 (quite modified), Kenwood DP-7090 (standard) and a Sony CDP-227ESD (standard)

The_Burg said:

Software is VortexBox.

Not at all tweaking was part of the fun. Changing caps for better spec, by passed by top quality items, bigger transformers, shotkey diode rectifiers. You could hear the difference. Turning the bias current up slightly on class B amps can make a huge difference, not by much though just a couple of ma or you could wreck it.

Can't explain the sound card thing. It wasn't expensive, £40 ish, no idea why but was the difference between a cheap BSR128 and a Linn Sondek. (owned both). Staggering. Timing was in a different league.

Tip of the day: Try tightening up the drivers in your speakers. Do it whilst playing music, you can hear the difference in a 1/4 turn. (Well i can and my ears aren't great these days).
For the more ambitous, get some heavy plates made up for your speakers, had some some laser cut 5mm thick plates made for my Jura's. Spreads the load, around 10mm wider all round and the weight couples them to the floor more directly. Cost less than £20. I've seen them advertised for near £200. Have a bit of DIY fun, PS: 3 spikes are better then 4. 2 at front 1 at back.
Buy some contact cleaner, spray it on all interconnects and switches. Again the difference can be amazing.

I used Vortexbox to rip all my CDs - and subsequently found some had errors - so I built my own Linux box optimised purely for ripping.

The_Burg said:

Old but a serious bit of kit in the day.

I guess I could say the same about mine lol.

The_Burg said:

Amp is Exposure XX and speaker Rega Jura.

One of the plus sides is you can tweak the FLAC files, reducing the level on a modern CD by as little as 3db can stop the DAC running into clipping. CuteFtp CDClip can work wonders, i believe the writer of this software is or at least was a PH'er.

Yep - I think the guys name is Graham IIRC.

And yes - I have tried tweaking levels etc. in my custom box and sure, there is a difference but CD still wins lol.

I have various DACs, an old Mission DAC5 which is quite similar to the Marantz CD17 DAC / analogue stages. I did have a Cambridge DAC magic (Azur) but was left distinctly unimpressed with that. Other DACs are Chinese Ebay imports (kits) which I have built / modified myself.

Speakers are Linn Keilidh.

Amplification includes a couple of home built preamps and power amps, along with some commercial stuff - a Sony TA-F540E, JVC AX-5, NAD 2200 power amp (modified of course!!) and a few other bits and bats. I have a small room full of vintage kit collected over the years.

And yes - I have compared much of it to modern amplification - and there wasn't anything in it.

And I can't afford to spend ££££ on higher end kit (which I don't think I need anyway!).

Apologies for the long, multi quote post and the thread drift.

[Alucidnation]

Ray Luxury-Yacht said:

Yes I could have wasted their time and then gone and bought the stuff online etc. etc.

In 1997?

[Gurbinder]

I have just moved back to what I think is a good hi-fi after years of listening to a B&W Zepplin, I bought the following and can say I am impressed.

Pro-ject Debut Carbon Turntable
Audiolab 8200CD OLED Cd Player
Rega Brio R Amp
Trichord Dino MK2 with Dino+ power supply
Arcam rdock
B&W 685 S2 Speakers

All with uprated power, speaker and phono cables.

It sounds great!

[passionforsound]

Crackie said:

Do you have an opinion on why speaker makers and amplifier makers don't generally sell speaker cable and why amplifier and source component makers don't generally sell interconnects ? .

Edited by Crackie on Friday 25th July 07:03

For the same reason why car makers (in most cases) don't make or sell tyres or car radios. Doesn't mean that good ones don't make a difference.

Edited by passionforsound on Saturday 26th July 19:51

[passionforsound]

Gurbinder said:

I have just moved back to what I think is a good hi-fi after years of listening to a B&W Zepplin, I bought the following and can say I am impressed.

Pro-ject Debut Carbon Turntable
Audiolab 8200CD OLED Cd Player
Rega Brio R Amp
Trichord Dino MK2 with Dino+ power supply
Arcam rdock
B&W 685 S2 Speakers

All with uprated power, speaker and phono cables.

It sounds great!

Sounds like a great set-up you've put together there. As the American's say on the forums, enjoy it in good health!

[legzr1]

Alucidnation said:

In 1997?

The M.O. back then was to use a friendly local dealers time and effort to demo gear for a couple of hours, go home to 'think about it' then buy the latest whathifi? and search for the cheapest telesales warehouse that stocked the item for a 10-30% saving.

That's why so many went out of business and why so many buyers now find themselves having to travel miles to demo stuff or simply pick a load of 'award winners' and trust to luck that it'll sound ok.

Shame on both counts.




As for this CD vs FLAC 'n' DAC malarky...

Took me weeks to rip my CDs using decent software and sticking it all on a home network - playback handled by a Pioneer N50 which is highly rated with excellent DACs - perhaps it's unfair to compare with CD players costing £2K+ but that's what I've used for a while so compare I will.

Considering the relatively low price of the Pionner and home network (router already here, added a WD MyCloud thing - 2TB which is ample for level 5 FLAC rips of a decent sized CD collection) it sounds great whether using FLAC from a server, used as a DAC via toslink from CD or BR or playing 192/24 hires downloads.

But, and there's always a but - there's something missing - call it air, space, whatever it's just not there - it returns when playing the disc through an MF A308 CD player and was there with a Krell 300. Now it's not.

Don't get me wrong, it's perfectly listenable (and beats the st out of SONOS and the like played through decent seperates) and the idea of a full collection at your fingertips can't be matched it's just, well, you just know putting the disc in the player gives more.

I'm loving the ease of use and the myriad of internet radio stations is great (and those transmitting at 320k sound decent too) so wondering if adding a decent DAC could change things.

Any ideas anyone?

[passionforsound]

TonyRPH said:

I see this stated a lot - however in my own experience, I still prefer a CD, despite ripping my entire collection to flac a couple of years ago.

I've tried various DAC / media player combinations too, but CD still wins for me...

To answer the OP's original question - do I still believe in good hi-fi? Hell yes!!!

Glad to hear it Tony! :-)

It doesn't always prove to be the case, but I've often thought a real appreciation of cars can go hand in hand with a real appreciation of good sounding music. To be really simply about it, the pleasure we get from a car that handles, accelerates and stops well (i.e. does everything sharper and better than a "normal" car) is not so far removed to the pleasure you can derive from music that sounds better in every way with greater clarify, definition and bass response.

I'll probably get derided over that suggestion, but in both cases you're looking for something that achieves the final percentage of perfection in each area in order to enjoy it more.

You could extend this analogy to say that track based cars (the final percentile of performance) is akin to really, really high end stuff, as its the smallest minority of customers, but budget to high end stuff fills the gap for music appreciation that drivers cars do for motoring.

Think that's true?

[Emeye]

T1547 said:

It needn't be compromised because of a streaming system though. I have around £7k's worth of hifi driven by a comparatively cheap £300 sonos connect that uses the Qobuz (similar to Spotify) streaming service playing in FLAC format. Undoubtedly helped by an external DAC but sounds great

Interesting - I had never heard of Qobuz. Hopefully they offer a trial as their catalogue may be limited. Also, I need to find out if they do an offline mode for when I am in the car.

[0a]

Some old kit that I left at the parents' place - I've not listened to it in 6 months and it sounds great given what it cost!

[Mouse1903]

passionforsound said:

Nice set-up that. Pioneer SA-7800 or SA-8800 if I'm not mistaken (even rarer than the SA-9800 now!)

8800

Bought it last May for about £240 off Ebay, spent £130 getting it serviced and re-capped. Been in daily use since December with no issues, sounds great with the Sony APM speakers

[Crackie]

passionforsound said:

Crackie said:

Do you have an opinion on why speaker makers and amplifier makers don't generally sell speaker cable and why amplifier and source component makers don't generally sell interconnects ? .

Edited by Crackie on Friday 25th July 07:03

For the same reason why car makers (in most cases) don't make or sell tyres or car radios. Doesn't mean that good ones don't make a difference.

Edited by passionforsound on Saturday 26th July 19:51

Car makers have extremely close relationships with tyre makers and audio companies. They fit specific tyres to their cars and in some cases develop a new tyre for a particular car. B&W, Meridian, Linn, B&O, Harman Kardon, Mark Levinson, Burmester, Bose etc have all had partnerships with car companies. I can't think of any similar partnerships between audio companies and cable companies.

By the way, I don't disagree with your post in bold but I think their contribution is extremely small and doesn't justify anything like 10% of overall budget.

Edited by Crackie on Sunday 27th July 16:41

[suigeneris]

Mouse1903 said:

8800

Bought it last May for about £240 off Ebay, spent £130 getting it serviced and re-capped. Been in daily use since December with no issues, sounds great with the Sony APM speakers

Nice bit of kit that!

[900T-R]

Quite a few high end audio manufacturers with a full line of source components, amplification and speakers do sell cables - Audio Note UK, Audio Note Japan/Kondo, 47 Labs spring to mind but there's many more...

[kenny.R400]

Naim actually insist the kit sounds better with Naim NAC 4 or 5 cable and their own Naim termination plugs.
It can work out pricey for long runs though.

[Crackie]

900T-R said:

Quite a few high end audio manufacturers with a full line of source components, amplification and speakers do sell cables - Audio Note UK, Audio Note Japan/Kondo, 47 Labs spring to mind but there's many more...

I appreciate some do, Linn, DNM, Naim also sell cables; I did qualify my post to say generally they don't.

[RedLeicester]

Crackie said:

passionforsound said:

Crackie said:

Do you have an opinion on why speaker makers and amplifier makers don't generally sell speaker cable and why amplifier and source component makers don't generally sell interconnects ? .

Edited by Crackie on Friday 25th July 07:03

For the same reason why car makers (in most cases) don't make or sell tyres or car radios. Doesn't mean that good ones don't make a difference.

Edited by passionforsound on Saturday 26th July 19:51

Car makers have extremely close relationships with tyre makers and audio companies. They fit specific tyres to their cars and in some cases develop a new tyre for a particular car. B&W, Meridian, Linn, B&O, Harman Kardon, Mark Levinson, Burmester, Bose etc have all had partnerships with car companies. I can't think of any similar partnerships between audio companies and cable companies.

By the way, I don't disagree with your post in bold but I think their contribution is extremely small and doesn't justify anything like 10% of overall budget.

Edited by Crackie on Sunday 27th July 16:41

I'd be terrified if tyres cost 10% of the value of the car!

[900T-R]

RedLeicester said:

I'd be terrified if tyres cost 10% of the value of the car!

Try a £2.5K (and only because cars are expensive here) MG ZT-T on 18-inch Continental SportContacts...

[RedLeicester]

900T-R said:

RedLeicester said:

I'd be terrified if tyres cost 10% of the value of the car!

Try a £2.5K (and only because cars are expensive here) MG ZT-T on 18-inch Continental SportContacts...

Both my current cars run 19"s and are £400 a full set. 4% of the value of one car, 2.5% the value of the other.