What's the most over-engineered "mainstream" car ever built?
Discussion
BGarside said:
In the UK we have road salt (which is down for 5-6 months of the year here in Scotland), more potholes, lower temperatures, more stop-start driving conditions, higher speeds on the motorways.
UK driving conditions are much tougher on cars than in NZ, unless you drive the gravel roads all the time (yes, I lived in NZ for 4 years....).
UK driving conditions are much tougher on cars than in NZ, unless you drive the gravel roads all the time (yes, I lived in NZ for 4 years....).
Was the salt I was thinking of, we use grit instead. Pros and cons both ways I guess, the grit doesn't cause rust but its probably responsible for a few more paint chips.
ging84 said:
If only engineering was that simple
So anyone other than me would consider using a fairly standard 17mm M12 x 1.5 wheel bolt to be over engineering, when a custom made bolt with a non standard thread, and head would do?
do you also think an engineer is someone who repairs boilers?
No I don't think that, I'm an automotive engineer, so I think I know as well as anyone what engineering is thanks, but I also know what people mean when they say "over engineered". Anyone other than you would consider using a bolt which exceeds its requirements to be over engineering, regardless as to whether it's standard or custom made however as I'm sure you'll know, being the genius that you are, a good engineer will not just calculate the requirements for the bolt but will then determine which off the shelf item will meet (or in the case of over-engineering, exceed) the requirements.So anyone other than me would consider using a fairly standard 17mm M12 x 1.5 wheel bolt to be over engineering, when a custom made bolt with a non standard thread, and head would do?
do you also think an engineer is someone who repairs boilers?
white_goodman said:
Actually, I would say you don't see that many Corsa Bs or Mk6 Escorts around any more, bearing in mind how many were sold. Scrappage scheme perhaps? Didn't even Mk6 Escorts rust out to the extent that it wasn't viable to get them through an MOT?
I know mine did. Well, I didn't try to get it MOTed, just decided for myself it was probably not worth the hassle for the value of the car, that's the thing, they're not worth much so people will just scrap them, scheme or no scheme. But other than that and the clutch adjuster, everything else was incredibly reliable. Well ok, the little picture on top of the gear stick fell off because the glue dried out. When I got it, it had a bit of a wibbly idle but it cleared with frequent Italian tuneups.Still see tons of Corsa Bs about though. But I think that's because the type they attract tend not to care if their car is held together with tape
I refuse to believe Vauxhals can be reliable.
scarble said:
Still see tons of Corsa Bs about though. But I think that's because the type they attract tend not to care if their car is held together with tape
I refuse to believe Vauxhals can be reliable.
A couple of years back a petrolhead colleague at my previous work had an old Vectra for commuting (along with an Mitsubishi Evo for fun I refuse to believe Vauxhals can be reliable.
), despite having less miles than my old Mk2 Mondeo everything was falling apart and half wasn't working. Door trim had fallen off, warning lights for everything. In comparison the only thing to have fallen off the Mondeo was a piece of sound deadening under the passenger side where the fuse box had been opened, the deadening not replaced properly and passengers had kicked it (and thinking about it the flaps over the vanity mirrors in the sunblinds, although I think they were removed on purpose), no warning lights and the only thing not working when I sold it was the left heated mirror. Although the Vectra was still running it had already snapped a cam belt and been fixed!
P-Jay said:
Based on that, I'd give a Vote for the 700 series Volvos - we ran one to tow around a golf racer for a couple of years and just abused it - yeah it was tough, but beneath the surface most stuff look crude and agricultural - I suppose you could say it was perhaps under-designed and over-engineered - where as a contemporary Japanese saloon might use a bit of shaped and pressed steel riveted in place to hold some obscure auxiliary pipe / cable in place, Volvo would use some huge bit of bar held on with 12mm bolts or something.
Yeah in the once in it's lifetime, time when you have to remove it, it's easier to unbolt the thing rather than take out the rivets but for 7000 days of it's lifetime it's a too heavy, too expensive solution which just added to the terrible performance and economy and it's naval handling.
If you look about in the dirty bits of older Jap stuff it all looks cheap and flimsy, yet they solder on, year after year never complaining because someone, somewhere tested it and decided exactly how strong it needed to be, rather than just add lots of material until they knew it could never break.
Great post - although you could use under-engineered to describe the 700 just as well. I'm betting for Sweden in the 90s, under-funded Volvo knew its buyers valued longevity and practicality, so rationalised it didn't need to go mad on designing new parts that no-one would appreciate. It had a loyal captive market that wasn't yet threatened by globalisation, emissions regs and all the other stuff that complicates things. Yeah in the once in it's lifetime, time when you have to remove it, it's easier to unbolt the thing rather than take out the rivets but for 7000 days of it's lifetime it's a too heavy, too expensive solution which just added to the terrible performance and economy and it's naval handling.
If you look about in the dirty bits of older Jap stuff it all looks cheap and flimsy, yet they solder on, year after year never complaining because someone, somewhere tested it and decided exactly how strong it needed to be, rather than just add lots of material until they knew it could never break.
Anyone read A Man Called Ove? Great novel about a grumpy old bloke in Sweden who buys local (okay Saabs) and appreciates their bombproof quality. He boycotts them when GM bought em, but actually the Americans had been doing the same thing for years with their SUVs and pickups. Strap a V8 lump to a couple of mighty chassis rails and reap the loyalty (until it all went tits up)
ETA: being harsh on Volvo re emissions regs. V early with Lambda Sond (catalytic convertor)
Edited by NickGibbs on Friday 25th July 09:34
GreatGranny said:
Good point.
I had a E21 315 years ago and it was a pleasuer to work on.
Bolts always came off without any problems, it just felt solid apart from the rust in the boot.
One for the 'Cars I wish I Kept' Thread.
My V70 alwso falls into that catagory.
Took it from 125k to 160k and it felt solid still , especially inside.
Front suspension parts the only wealness.
The 2.5 10v 5 cyclinder engine was very understressed producing 140bhp.
You do realise that they never made a 2.5 E21, the largest was a 323i, and that was a straight 6. I don't think BMW have ever built a 5 cylinder engine, certainly not in a production car. I had an E21 (316, which I modded a bit but nothing too drastic). It was a solid enough car save for rust issues. Wouldn't want one again, mind.I had a E21 315 years ago and it was a pleasuer to work on.
Bolts always came off without any problems, it just felt solid apart from the rust in the boot.
One for the 'Cars I wish I Kept' Thread.
My V70 alwso falls into that catagory.
Took it from 125k to 160k and it felt solid still , especially inside.
Front suspension parts the only wealness.
The 2.5 10v 5 cyclinder engine was very understressed producing 140bhp.
E65Ross said:
You do realise that they never made a 2.5 E21, the largest was a 323i, and that was a straight 6. I don't think BMW have ever built a 5 cylinder engine, certainly not in a production car. I had an E21 (316, which I modded a bit but nothing too drastic). It was a solid enough car save for rust issues. Wouldn't want one again, mind.
?He's talking about a Volvo isn't he?
E65Ross said:
GreatGranny said:
Good point.
I had a E21 315 years ago and it was a pleasuer to work on.
Bolts always came off without any problems, it just felt solid apart from the rust in the boot.
One for the 'Cars I wish I Kept' Thread.
My V70 alwso falls into that catagory.
Took it from 125k to 160k and it felt solid still , especially inside.
Front suspension parts the only wealness.
The 2.5 10v 5 cyclinder engine was very understressed producing 140bhp.
You do realise that they never made a 2.5 E21, the largest was a 323i, and that was a straight 6. I don't think BMW have ever built a 5 cylinder engine, certainly not in a production car.I had a E21 315 years ago and it was a pleasuer to work on.
Bolts always came off without any problems, it just felt solid apart from the rust in the boot.
One for the 'Cars I wish I Kept' Thread.
My V70 alwso falls into that catagory.
Took it from 125k to 160k and it felt solid still , especially inside.
Front suspension parts the only wealness.
The 2.5 10v 5 cyclinder engine was very understressed producing 140bhp.
Might be just on the cusp of 'mainstream', but the BMW 8-series (E31)
Released in 1989, it came with 'drive by wire' throttle, multi-link rear suspension, seats with 6 different motors, a big complicated but thoroughly unstressed V12 and the washer jet bottle was located in the rear bumper.
My old man had one 5/6 years ago and it had gadgets that would still put a modern day BMW to shame. We had to fix a motor on the drivers seat once and, by Christ, was that a complicated job. The sheer number of wires, motors and ECUs fitted underneath was insane.
A great car, massively over-engineered; even by today's standards.
Released in 1989, it came with 'drive by wire' throttle, multi-link rear suspension, seats with 6 different motors, a big complicated but thoroughly unstressed V12 and the washer jet bottle was located in the rear bumper.
My old man had one 5/6 years ago and it had gadgets that would still put a modern day BMW to shame. We had to fix a motor on the drivers seat once and, by Christ, was that a complicated job. The sheer number of wires, motors and ECUs fitted underneath was insane.
A great car, massively over-engineered; even by today's standards.
Urban Sports said:
E65Ross said:
You do realise that they never made a 2.5 E21, the largest was a 323i, and that was a straight 6. I don't think BMW have ever built a 5 cylinder engine, certainly not in a production car. I had an E21 (316, which I modded a bit but nothing too drastic). It was a solid enough car save for rust issues. Wouldn't want one again, mind.
?He's talking about a Volvo isn't he?
The Beaver King said:
Might be just on the cusp of 'mainstream', but the BMW 8-series (E31)
Released in 1989, it came with 'drive by wire' throttle, multi-link rear suspension, seats with 6 different motors, a big complicated but thoroughly unstressed V12 and the washer jet bottle was located in the rear bumper.
My old man had one 5/6 years ago and it had gadgets that would still put a modern day BMW to shame. We had to fix a motor on the drivers seat once and, by Christ, was that a complicated job. The sheer number of wires, motors and ECUs fitted underneath was insane.
A great car, massively over-engineered; even by today's standards.
They've got a reputation for costing an arm and a leg to maintain as they have lots of problems due to over complicated electronics. Over designed yes, over engineered, i'm not sure.Released in 1989, it came with 'drive by wire' throttle, multi-link rear suspension, seats with 6 different motors, a big complicated but thoroughly unstressed V12 and the washer jet bottle was located in the rear bumper.
My old man had one 5/6 years ago and it had gadgets that would still put a modern day BMW to shame. We had to fix a motor on the drivers seat once and, by Christ, was that a complicated job. The sheer number of wires, motors and ECUs fitted underneath was insane.
A great car, massively over-engineered; even by today's standards.
I'm quite sure that some of the over-engineered interpretations are a little off the mark; over-complication/design and over-engineering are opposite ends of the scale.
An engineer designs or uses a component to do the job it was asked to do, in the simplest and most efficient way possible.
A designer thinks of things that could be done differently and then uses modern components and technology to do it.l....which sometimes don't have a great orproven test history.
Over-engineering is when an engineer is asked for a component to do a job for so many years but then pulls the wool over the bean counters eyes and selects a component to do for so many years times two or three, or four....
So with hindsight perhaps a BMW E34 or E32 score well, as do some pre-mid 1990's Mercedes Benz maybe?
An engineer designs or uses a component to do the job it was asked to do, in the simplest and most efficient way possible.
A designer thinks of things that could be done differently and then uses modern components and technology to do it.l....which sometimes don't have a great orproven test history.
Over-engineering is when an engineer is asked for a component to do a job for so many years but then pulls the wool over the bean counters eyes and selects a component to do for so many years times two or three, or four....
So with hindsight perhaps a BMW E34 or E32 score well, as do some pre-mid 1990's Mercedes Benz maybe?
Heaveho said:
I was going to say the early to mid-nineties Corolla, I never processed a claim in 5 years on them when I worked for Toyota. I did one claim on as LS400 in that time, for a waterpump, one of the few Toyota occasional failings. Toyota dealers have, or had, one of the smallest parts departments I've ever seen, they only stock service stuff, it's all they ever sold!
Apart from short motors for 1.4 1.6 and 1.8 to replace blocks with oval bores. 1.3 corolla though, bomb proof
I'd be another flying the Volvo flag...
I went back from a phase 2 V70 to an 850, simply because the latter has that barn door engineering feel about it... all the bolts are massive, stuff never rounds off or snaps, there's nothing delicate and precise about it. It's all just massive engineering and panels that are about 5mm thick.
I went back from a phase 2 V70 to an 850, simply because the latter has that barn door engineering feel about it... all the bolts are massive, stuff never rounds off or snaps, there's nothing delicate and precise about it. It's all just massive engineering and panels that are about 5mm thick.
There is obviously a theme running here Lexus/Toyota being the main contenders. Having worked on & owned many over the years, the way they are engineered is what makes them good. Good quality plating on nuts & bolts, good design & ease of maintenance. Over engineered mechanical components that will go on forever if lubricated & can often handle significant increases in power without issues. Sealed or waterproof electrical connections that can be undone easily by hand, compared to say nasty Bosch plugs.
Take the 4.2TD Landcruiser, plenty of them with 500k on the clock still going strong & in daily use. Its essentially a truck engine & a lazy one at that seems to go on forever. The other mechanical bits are so over engineered even when worn they still keep on going. You only need about 6 spanners to work on the thing too.
My last Landcruiser despite only doing 25mpg was the cheapest car I have ever run (for 5 years) it only required oil & brakes to keep going nothing mechanical ever failed or needed replacing that was not a wearing part. For those 5 years & 60k it was mostly towing a 3ton trailer too & its now 25 years old! I sold it on for a decent profit too.
I have just aquired another VX Limited 4.2TD 80, as not much else gets through the floods down here every time there's heavy rain, which we have to get through to tend horses. About the only thing wrong with the new one is the rusty tailgate which they all do suffer from, not bad for a 20 year old truck.
Take the 4.2TD Landcruiser, plenty of them with 500k on the clock still going strong & in daily use. Its essentially a truck engine & a lazy one at that seems to go on forever. The other mechanical bits are so over engineered even when worn they still keep on going. You only need about 6 spanners to work on the thing too.
My last Landcruiser despite only doing 25mpg was the cheapest car I have ever run (for 5 years) it only required oil & brakes to keep going nothing mechanical ever failed or needed replacing that was not a wearing part. For those 5 years & 60k it was mostly towing a 3ton trailer too & its now 25 years old! I sold it on for a decent profit too.
I have just aquired another VX Limited 4.2TD 80, as not much else gets through the floods down here every time there's heavy rain, which we have to get through to tend horses. About the only thing wrong with the new one is the rusty tailgate which they all do suffer from, not bad for a 20 year old truck.
Sir Fergie said:
W123 Merc.
Volvo 240
I know someone alluded to the fact that the 190 was the last Merc built to a standard not a price - but I was in a 1986 W124 230 E - which frankly felt f
king amazing - way back in 96/97 - it was the worst possible colour combination too - white with a black interior - still felt amazing. Been in a number of W124 taxis here in Ireland down the years since - and they've always felt awesome. I realise the post facelift W124 - ie at the time they started calling them E class isn't quite so good. But pre facelift - yes I think it qualifies
Can't overlook the Audi 80 1.9 tdi either I would say - old school Audi build quality with the 1.9 tdi powering it like a boss into the next century
.
Brother in law had a 190, red, faded to pink. It just seemed so well made, it sighed sluggishly along from bar to bar to eateries in London, seemingly as overpriced as his car .He had no interest in cars per se , he was no P.H., but I admired and ,indeed, envied the car because it was so robust and bulletproof. He, a City Tax Lawyer would have had it serviced ( when unavoidable) but , the best part of 20 years ago ,it just seemed so superior to anything to which ordinary folk could aspire pre PCP etc. It would now appear absurdly dull; it was practising dullness then, but is there an equivalent now?
Volvo 240
I know someone alluded to the fact that the 190 was the last Merc built to a standard not a price - but I was in a 1986 W124 230 E - which frankly felt f
king amazing - way back in 96/97 - it was the worst possible colour combination too - white with a black interior - still felt amazing. Been in a number of W124 taxis here in Ireland down the years since - and they've always felt awesome. I realise the post facelift W124 - ie at the time they started calling them E class isn't quite so good. But pre facelift - yes I think it qualifiesCan't overlook the Audi 80 1.9 tdi either I would say - old school Audi build quality with the 1.9 tdi powering it like a boss into the next century
.Brother in law had a 190, red, faded to pink. It just seemed so well made, it sighed sluggishly along from bar to bar to eateries in London, seemingly as overpriced as his car .He had no interest in cars per se , he was no P.H., but I admired and ,indeed, envied the car because it was so robust and bulletproof. He, a City Tax Lawyer would have had it serviced ( when unavoidable) but , the best part of 20 years ago ,it just seemed so superior to anything to which ordinary folk could aspire pre PCP etc. It would now appear absurdly dull; it was practising dullness then, but is there an equivalent now?
Edited by Sir Fergie on Wednesday 23 July 21:30
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