Peace between Israel and Palestine

[Octoposse]

Formula for peace is actually very straightforward:

“Land for peace”, and two states;
• A viable Palestinian state based on Gaza and the West Bank;
• The permanent border between the two states freely negotiated between them – undoubtedly ending up as some close +/- to the 1967 border;
• Palestinian (and other relevant Arab state) recognition of Israel;
• Security guarantees for all states in the region;
• Surrender by the Palestinians of the right of return of refugees to lands falling within the agreed Israeli borders (compensation for which paid for by the internayional community);
• Partition and/or some form of international status for Jerusalem.

Simples. All we have to do is create conditions in which it is all in all parties' interests to get there . . .

[DamienB]

High tech spy satellites that look down on the region and immediately drop a very large crowbar on the head of any person holding a weapon of any description, from a petrol bomb to a tank. This would, I have little doubt, provide valuable employment for the defence industries of the west, result in a couple of weeks of extremely photogenic carnage and thereafter a nice solid peace.

After a few years you could upgrade the satellites to listen out for harsh language between people and attack them for that.

Looking further into the future, adding a mind reading module to weed out any naughty thoughts would complete the peace nicely.

Once happy with the trial region you could expand it to cover the entire planet. Global peace through overwhelming firepower.

[TheRealFingers99]

Scuffers said:

add in the internet and 24H tv, and you have a worldwide audience for the nutters to recruit even more simpletons from the west with age old stories of injustice and how many virgins they will get if they martyr themselves.

Is there any evidence at all that Hamas or Fatah have recruited any virgin seeking martyrs from the west?

[otolith]

TheRealFingers99 said:

Is there any evidence at all that Hamas or Fatah have recruited any virgin seeking martyrs from the west?

Other radical Islamic groups certainly use it.

[catso]

I remember my Dad going to Israel on business 40 odd years ago and him coming back with a presentation 'medal' that was being handed out because of the 'peace' that had just been brokered.

My Dad still has the medal, the inscription on it is 'No More War' - I think the peace lasted a few weeks...

[anonymous-user]

TheRealFingers99 said:

Is there any evidence at all that Hamas or Fatah have recruited any virgin seeking martyrs from the west?

No evidence yet posted, I note.
A Scuffers 'media conspiracy theory'.

[telecat]

It looks like Hamas influence was on the wane. Hence the attacks on Israel in order to provoke a response and make Hamas look a "power" again. Even if that hurts their own people. Having said that both sides have religious and ideological extremists that want to hold onto the power they have. It's an old story and I don't see it ending soon

[MX7]

I think the cause of all this is the way it was partitioned in 1947, and I think that we need to accept that there will never be peace without some drastic action.

I believe that what should happen is that Gaza should be controlled by Egypt, and the Arab population of the West Bank should be absorbed into Jordan, leaving the natural border of Israel to be the River Jordan. Literally TransJordan.

I know it sounds very harsh, and I don't expect it to be a popular opinion, but everyone realises that the current situation is a disaster. Jordan would need a lot of assistance to absorb the 1m+ Arabs, but so would a state of Palestine. It would become a failed state from Day 1.

I realise that people will claim that it's unfair, inhumane or barbaric, but if it creates peace it will mean that it's effective. There was a population transfer of about 15m when Pakistan was formed, and, on a smaller scale, Israel removed all Jews from Gaza in 2005.

Unless something like that happens, we will be talking about exactly the same thing for decades.

[anonymous-user]

Always someone else to blame.
The 'borders' have been changing ever since the forties, through war, through incursion, through settlement creep, all those actions cannot be blamed on seventy year old history.
MX7, we wouldn't ever expect anything better from you as a 'solution', you would never suggest the removal of all Jewish settlers since the forties would you?!

[Qwert1e]

Chimune said:

3. jerusalem is doomed as a city. its existance is a major part of the middle east problems. the fight over the holy land is just the fight over jerusalem extended.

I think that's exactly the point.

In many ways it would be batter if the UN simply razed Jerusalem to the ground - not a trace remaining - and then said to all parties, "Right, now sort yourselves out".

[TheRealFingers99]

fesuvious said:

It was under questioning that one (failed, and young) suicide bomber said that martyrdom was the only way he would get to have sex with 72 virgins.

This was the vision of Paradise offered to him.

only those loyal to Islam can enter Paradise, and within Paradise there are 'grades'. To have died a martyr in Jihad automatically grants you the most exquisite version of paradise.

Any doubts _ its all in the Koran.

You miss the point completely. The thing about virgins (as in the Bible) is likely to be a mistranslation. But those who believe in the Sky Fairy seem spectacularly prone to those.

Find me a western suicide bomber in Palestine. That was the issue.

[otolith]

The situation in Palestine has been a significant part of the motivation of suicide attacks in the West - which is probably more effective than getting them to blow themselves up in Israel.

[TheRealFingers99]

Qwert1e said:

In many ways it would be batter if the UN simply razed Jerusalem to the ground - not a trace remaining - and then said to all parties, "Right, now sort yourselves out".

Octoposse offered a rather less dramatic solution a while back.

I'd like to see Jerusalem as a UN controlled open city/mini state. Freedom for Palestine and Israel to set up their own parliaments there. Freedom for all varieties of Sky Fairy believers to worship Her there, according to their rites.

The elephant in the room (in 10 or 20 years) will be access to water.

[CRA2Y]

audidoody said:

If all Israel's Jewish inhabitants were transported to the Plant Zog overnight and left the place empty, Hamas and the PLO would be rocketing each other within two minutes as a prelude to a full-scale civil war. That's even before Jordan and the Egyptian army mobilised. And of course the ISIS crowd would be waiting in the wings.

No, they'd spend most of their GDP upgrading their rockets to reach Planet Zog.

[TheRealFingers99]

otolith said:

The situation in Palestine has been a significant part of the motivation of suicide attacks in the West - which is probably more effective than getting them to blow themselves up in Israel.

And your source is? For sure, and not without reason, the West's support for Israel is often a neat add on justification. How much it provides motivation is speculative, at best, and the link with Hamas and Fatah much more so.

You forget that the rifts between Muslim "radical" groups make any split between Hamas and Fatah look like handbags at dawn.

[Engineer1]

TheJimi said:

Notwithstanding a radical shift in outlook on both sides, it'll never happen, imo.

And definitely not while Hamas (and it's ilk) exists.

Oh, and twig - 'B', pretty much undoubtedly.

Edited by TheJimi on Saturday 26th July 09:22

Hamas etc will exist as long as each side claim the same piece of land, Israel's claim is shakey given the country ceased to exist for hundreds of years.
Another worry is if the old testament is vaguely reliable there's oil in the holy land, of course that could be as true as the rest of it... Too many people have skin in the game, the Jewish diaspora and the Palestinian diaspora may not accept the solution that is best for the citizens of their homeland look at Irish Americans and their views on Ireland.

[Northbloke]

The interesting book "Predictioneer" has a chapter on the Middle East with a suggested solution. The author looks at all types of negotiations (personal, corporate, political), assessing the motives, power etc of all the players and tries to predict what will happen using game theory to come up with an optimal strategy (usually from the viewpoint of whoever is paying him).

IIRC his view is that all the land for peace stuff is a waste of time as it relies on cooperation and trust when neither exists. He reckons any solution should be based on self-interest with the right incentives and a self-enforcing mechanism. Can't remember the details but it was based on Israel and Palestine agreeing to share the considerable tax dollars from the tourist industry based on current (not future) population size (with adequate monitoring). Both populations could then be seen to prosper from peace in the region = more tourists = more tax dollars for all = better lives. If the terrorists take hold and tourism falls then both sides suffer. This has the effect of the main peace loving population disowning their own terrorists (whereas currently they support them against the oppressors) as it is harming their prosperity and standard of living.

I'm sure there are many difficulties with this but the gist of it makes sense. Prosperous people tend not to revolt. Better than the current tit for tat stuff anyway.

(he has an interesting chapter written a while ago on why all Climate Conferences will be flops too. He's been right so far)

[audidoody]

CRA2Y said:

No, they'd spend most of their GDP upgrading their rockets to reach Planet Zog.

[Funkycoldribena]

Northbloke said:

The interesting book "Predictioneer" has a chapter on the Middle East with a suggested solution. The author looks at all types of negotiations (personal, corporate, political), assessing the motives, power etc of all the players and tries to predict what will happen using game theory to come up with an optimal strategy (usually from the viewpoint of whoever is paying him).

IIRC his view is that all the land for peace stuff is a waste of time as it relies on cooperation and trust when neither exists. He reckons any solution should be based on self-interest with the right incentives and a self-enforcing mechanism. Can't remember the details but it was based on Israel and Palestine agreeing to share the considerable tax dollars from the tourist industry based on current (not future) population size (with adequate monitoring). Both populations could then be seen to prosper from peace in the region = more tourists = more tax dollars for all = better lives. If the terrorists take hold and tourism falls then both sides suffer. This has the effect of the main peace loving population disowning their own terrorists (whereas currently they support them against the oppressors) as it is harming their prosperity and standard of living.

I'm sure there are many difficulties with this but the gist of it makes sense. Prosperous people tend not to revolt. Better than the current tit for tat stuff anyway.

(he has an interesting chapter written a while ago on why all Climate Conferences will be flops too. He's been right so far)

Blimey,the ice cream wars in Scotland were bad enough....

[MX7]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Why object to it? I know that your thinking is a bit spongy, but tell me something else that would work. Something that would see peace in the next ten years?

Edited by MX7 on Sunday 27th July 22:47