Peace between Israel and Palestine

Peace between Israel and Palestine

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avinalarf

Original Poster:

6,438 posts

141 months

Saturday 26th July 2014
quotequote all
I have started this topic in the naive hope that it might be a constructive debate on how that peace might be achieved.
Let's have a sensible, reasoned, debate that does not descend into the pointless arguments,entrenched and biased opinions,that other topics on PH,the media and other social media forums have led to.

Pints

18,444 posts

193 months

Saturday 26th July 2014
quotequote all
What's there to debate? Two nations of people with histories and claims to the land going back thousands of years. Each believe they have a divine right to be on this hallowed ground - as they see it.

That sort of history will not be enable the conflict to be resolved and peace established with reasoned debate.

avinalarf

Original Poster:

6,438 posts

141 months

Saturday 26th July 2014
quotequote all
That's a bit gloomy Pints.
We are better than that.
Let's take Nelson Mandela or Martin Luther King as our examples.
Two great,strong men,that helped to forge hope out of despair.

Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Saturday 26th July 2014
quotequote all
Pints said:
What's there to debate? Two nations of people with histories and claims to the land going back thousands of years. Each believe they have a divine right to be on this hallowed ground - as they see it.

That sort of history will not be enable the conflict to be resolved and peace established with reasoned debate.
it's a bit more complex than that.

one side what's the eradication of the other from the face of the earth, the other side just wants to live in their "promised land"

actually, if you removed Israel from the equation, I bet there would still be a war going on between the different sects of Islam (much like there is elsewhere)

IMHO the basic problem is that the whole region is full of stupid, uneducated, idiots that are easily lead by some old cynical morons with a 1,000 year old axe to grind, and what's made all this worse is we have poured a shed load of money (and thus weapons) in that re a little more dangerous that a sharpened Guava fruit.

add in the internet and 24H tv, and you have a worldwide audience for the nutters to recruit even more simpletons from the west with age old stories of injustice and how many virgins they will get if they martyr themselves.

anonymous-user

53 months

Saturday 26th July 2014
quotequote all


A hypothetical quessy here;
Say Hamas evaporated overnight, what do you think the Israeli long term aim is:
1. One nation, Israel, Jewish constitution.
2. Two distinct sovereign nations, both independent and with resources and land required to be relatively self-sustained, one Jewish, the other likely Muslim.
3. Other.

TwigtheWonderkid

43,248 posts

149 months

Saturday 26th July 2014
quotequote all
Another hypothetical quessy.

Supposing Israel had a massive change of heart, and agreed to swap places with Hamas and the Palestinians. They let the Palestinians have what is currently Israel, and 8 million Israelis moved into the Gaza strip and the Westbank. What would Hamas's reaction be?

a. Brilliant, thanks very much, now lets all live in peace.
b. We refuse to recognise the state of Israel who are occupying our beloved Gaza strip and Westbank and we will not stop attacking them until we have wiped them from the face of the planet.

I'm going with option b.

rovermorris999

5,195 posts

188 months

Saturday 26th July 2014
quotequote all
Until Israel's neighbours agree that Israel has right to exist and don't threaten it with destruction there will be no peace.

TheJimi

24,860 posts

242 months

Saturday 26th July 2014
quotequote all
Notwithstanding a radical shift in outlook on both sides, it'll never happen, imo.

And definitely not while Hamas (and it's ilk) exists.

Oh, and twig - 'B', pretty much undoubtedly.

Edited by TheJimi on Saturday 26th July 09:22

avinalarf

Original Poster:

6,438 posts

141 months

Saturday 26th July 2014
quotequote all
TheJimi said:
Notwithstanding a radical shift in outlook on both sides, it'll never happen, imo.

And definitely not while Hamas (and it's ilk) exists.
It is possible to marginalise the extremists e.g. as with the IRA, albeit not completely eliminate them.
I am certain the great majority wish to live in peace and just get on with their lives.
Both Palestinians and Israelis deserve that,a decent life,where they can aspire to go forward.

TheJimi

24,860 posts

242 months

Saturday 26th July 2014
quotequote all
Agree with that, particularly in that both Israelis and Palestinians deserve to live in peace.

Agree also that the extremists can be marginalised, but Hamas is an entirely different ball game from the IRA, both in concept and in excecution as is the fundamental issues surrounding the whole thing.

It's like "the troubles" by an order of magnitude.

Foppo

2,344 posts

123 months

Saturday 26th July 2014
quotequote all
Scuffers said:
Pints said:
What's there to debate? Two nations of people with histories and claims to the land going back thousands of years. Each believe they have a divine right to be on this hallowed ground - as they see it.

That sort of history will not be enable the conflict to be resolved and peace established with reasoned debate.
it's a bit more complex than that.

one side what's the eradication of the other from the face of the earth, the other side just wants to live in their "promised land"

actually, if you removed Israel from the equation, I bet there would still be a war going on between the different sects of Islam (much like there is elsewhere)

IMHO the basic problem is that the whole region is full of stupid, uneducated, idiots that are easily lead by some old cynical morons with a 1,000 year old axe to grind, and what's made all this worse is we have poured a shed load of money (and thus weapons) in that re a little more dangerous that a sharpened Guava fruit.

add in the internet and 24H tv, and you have a worldwide audience for the nutters to recruit even more simpletons from the west with age old stories of injustice and how many virgins they will get if they martyr themselves.
Already name calling is not a constructive debate is it? What is the point.

avinalarf

Original Poster:

6,438 posts

141 months

Saturday 26th July 2014
quotequote all
rovermorris999 said:
Until Israel's neighbours agree that Israel has right to exist and don't threaten it with destruction there will be no peace.
True,but Israel also must show that it is willing to give the Palestinians a viable homeland.
Both parties must show they are sincere and be prepared to cross previous green lines.

avinalarf

Original Poster:

6,438 posts

141 months

Saturday 26th July 2014
quotequote all
Foppo said:
Scuffers said:
Pints said:
What's there to debate? Two nations of people with histories and claims to the land going back thousands of years. Each believe they have a divine right to be on this hallowed ground - as they see it.

That sort of history will not be enable the conflict to be resolved and peace established with reasoned debate.
it's a bit more complex than that.

one side what's the eradication of the other from the face of the earth, the other side just wants to live in their "promised land"

actually, if you removed Israel from the equation, I bet there would still be a war going on between the different sects of Islam (much like there is elsewhere)

IMHO the basic problem is that the whole region is full of stupid, uneducated, idiots that are easily lead by some old cynical morons with a 1,000 year old axe to grind, and what's made all this worse is we have poured a shed load of money (and thus weapons) in that re a little more dangerous that a sharpened Guava fruit.

add in the internet and 24H tv, and you have a worldwide audience for the nutters to recruit even more simpletons from the west with age old stories of injustice and how many virgins they will get if they martyr themselves.
Already name calling is not a constructive debate is it? What is the point.
I agree ,name calling does not get us anywhere,please try to resist.
This is what the extremists feed off of.

andymadmak

14,482 posts

269 months

Saturday 26th July 2014
quotequote all
rovermorris999 said:
Until Israel's neighbours agree that Israel has right to exist and don't threaten it with destruction there will be no peace.
This

The solution rests not just with Israel and the Palestinians, but also with all the neighboring countries in the region, some of whom are quite happy to use the Palestinian people in a proxy war with Israel.
The region has to agree that Israel has a right to exist - preferably within the pre 67 borders... And that Israel has an absolute right to expect to live peacefully, without fear of attack within those borders.
Everything else flows from this start point in my view.

anonymous-user

53 months

Saturday 26th July 2014
quotequote all
It's interesting to witness the general lack of faith in Israel's intentions going forward.

avinalarf

Original Poster:

6,438 posts

141 months

Saturday 26th July 2014
quotequote all
It hasn't taken long for negative posts to appear,a great pity,as it was beginning to show positive signs.

grumbledoak

31,499 posts

232 months

Saturday 26th July 2014
quotequote all
"You'll find no peace on stolen land."

Both groups claim the land, worse still it is 'Holy'. The Jews hold the land by superior force, but they are massively outnumbered. In truth the only end to this that I can see is the destruction of the state of Israel. I don't see that happening peacefully.

smegmore

3,091 posts

175 months

Saturday 26th July 2014
quotequote all
There will never be peace between Israelis and Palestinians.

Their respective sky daddies will make sure of that.

/thread

biggrin

anonymous-user

53 months

Saturday 26th July 2014
quotequote all
Avinalarf - my point, which I think you also raised, is that Israel need to be committed to a two state solution or a secular one nation solution.
If they are not then all points of discussion are moot. I will be watching how they get on with Fatah in the WB.

Wilmslowboy

4,188 posts

205 months

Saturday 26th July 2014
quotequote all
avinalarf said:
It hasn't taken long for negative posts to appear,a great pity,as it was beginning to show positive signs.
I think it was a valiant attempt at a positive thread, however it feels some (not all) would rather discuss why the violence (and justify it) than what can be done to stop it.

I have a modest suggestion , assuming it is not possible to end the circle of violence how about the great nations of the world (perhaps the g20) all agree to "take in" any child/ parent from Palestine and give them a modern, safe and educated upbringing. You could call it a "right to leave".

Then leave the rest to fight it out,

I know this will not help the peoples get their land back (either side) however it could stop innocent children being killed and the cycle of revenge it causes.

If I was a parent in Palestine (or Israel) my children's future would be my first priority, if some group chooses to use my street to launch rockets from, that results in return fire and I can't leave, I've no ideas what I would do.