Is it stupid to drive a nice car?
Discussion
I know Monkey Harris could have made a few quid from restoring and selling the e30 M3 I sold him, but personally I was well chuffed to see how it turned out as a Group A rally car. Yes, there are inherent risks to any car built fo competition but it really is something special being able to see and hear it mid stage! I guess nostalgia is a big part of iconic cars but if all they do is sit in an air conditioned garage, you may as well just have a picture!
The e30 M3 was something I'd lusted after since first seeing one and the only other cars that had that effect on me, were the Porsche 917 and BMW M1. Even if my numbers came up, I wouldn't physically fit in either though!
Have checked the profiles of a few people posting here and there are some pretty special cars amongst you. Any pics would be appreciated!
The e30 M3 was something I'd lusted after since first seeing one and the only other cars that had that effect on me, were the Porsche 917 and BMW M1. Even if my numbers came up, I wouldn't physically fit in either though!
Have checked the profiles of a few people posting here and there are some pretty special cars amongst you. Any pics would be appreciated!
In an "Ideal World", I'd echo all of the sentiments being expressed above i.e "Drive it!".
When I had my E30 M3 (owned for 6 or 7 years) there were periods when I was driving it as my daily car. Because I live in area where it could be driven hard and because the monetary value of the car wasn't so high, I would drive it hard. Even back then people would say to me: "How can you bring yourself to drive such a car on a daily basis?".
However, there's a "but" here, isn't there? And it's a big "but"...
Firstly, most if not all of us here work for a living. We don't have limitless funds and we scrimp, save, look at our finances and balance things for hopefully a better and more secure future for ourselves and dependants.
Secondly, after our houses, for many of us our cars are probably the most financially valuable assets that we own. Therefore, by definition, in the "Real World" as opposed to "Ideal World" our cars do have a value beyond merely driving and enjoying them. There is no getting away from this fact for most of us if we really stop to think and are honest about it?
Thirdly, it is also an unequivocal fact that the "classic car" market values low mileage. I'm not going to get into the whole age-old debate of: "I'd rather have a classic car that's been driven and has high miles than one that's been sat in garage with low miles etc, etc, etc...". It's a nonsense debate because the simple fact is that low miles DOES put a MASSIVE premium on car values whether one thinks the cars themselves are better or not.
Accepting the above then, many of us can genuinely not afford (in the broadest sense of the word) to allow ourselves to drive some of our cars all the time with complete disregard to mileage and hence value, however much we would like to.
Thus, in contrast to my ex-E30 M3 which I did "drive", I have another car which has very low mileage on it. I bought it 8 years ago with what was already a very low mileage for its age then at just under 25K miles. Eight years later it still has only 27K miles on the clock. It is now undoubtedly one of the lowest mileage examples anywhere. Therefore, much as I might like to on a purely selfish basis, I simply cannot afford to just drive this car, pile on the miles and in the process massively decrease its monetary value.
This is a harsh reality and I only present it as what I hope will be taken as a counter-balance to the "drive it, drive it hard, that's what it's made for and come what may" stance. That stance may work all well and good for those who can afford it in terms of what ever the car in question is. Maybe with some cars, some of us can't?
When I had my E30 M3 (owned for 6 or 7 years) there were periods when I was driving it as my daily car. Because I live in area where it could be driven hard and because the monetary value of the car wasn't so high, I would drive it hard. Even back then people would say to me: "How can you bring yourself to drive such a car on a daily basis?".
However, there's a "but" here, isn't there? And it's a big "but"...
Firstly, most if not all of us here work for a living. We don't have limitless funds and we scrimp, save, look at our finances and balance things for hopefully a better and more secure future for ourselves and dependants.
Secondly, after our houses, for many of us our cars are probably the most financially valuable assets that we own. Therefore, by definition, in the "Real World" as opposed to "Ideal World" our cars do have a value beyond merely driving and enjoying them. There is no getting away from this fact for most of us if we really stop to think and are honest about it?
Thirdly, it is also an unequivocal fact that the "classic car" market values low mileage. I'm not going to get into the whole age-old debate of: "I'd rather have a classic car that's been driven and has high miles than one that's been sat in garage with low miles etc, etc, etc...". It's a nonsense debate because the simple fact is that low miles DOES put a MASSIVE premium on car values whether one thinks the cars themselves are better or not.
Accepting the above then, many of us can genuinely not afford (in the broadest sense of the word) to allow ourselves to drive some of our cars all the time with complete disregard to mileage and hence value, however much we would like to.
Thus, in contrast to my ex-E30 M3 which I did "drive", I have another car which has very low mileage on it. I bought it 8 years ago with what was already a very low mileage for its age then at just under 25K miles. Eight years later it still has only 27K miles on the clock. It is now undoubtedly one of the lowest mileage examples anywhere. Therefore, much as I might like to on a purely selfish basis, I simply cannot afford to just drive this car, pile on the miles and in the process massively decrease its monetary value.
This is a harsh reality and I only present it as what I hope will be taken as a counter-balance to the "drive it, drive it hard, that's what it's made for and come what may" stance. That stance may work all well and good for those who can afford it in terms of what ever the car in question is. Maybe with some cars, some of us can't?
Edited by derin100 on Monday 28th July 06:49
derin100 said:
Thirdly, it is also an unequivocal fact that the "classic car" market values low mileage. I'm not going to get into the whole age-old debate of: "I'd rather have a classic car that's been driven and has high miles than one that's been sat in garage with low miles etc, etc, etc...". It's a nonsense debate because the simple fact is that low miles DOES put a MASSIVE premium on car values whether one thinks the cars themselves are better or not.
While all this is entirely true, if you view everything as an investment then you're already down the path of not using it.Alternatively, you view the fact that your classic car which is gaining miles is, at worst, depreciating by a very small amount year-on-year. It may even still appreciate depending on the car in question.
Almost everything a person buys depreciates, so why worry excessively about impacting something's future value by enjoying it? It might matter a little bit, but frankly I'm sure many people on here buy cars for their personal enjoyment of them, not the enjoyment of a future owner who has a 10k mile minter.
Personally I'd rather see the current owner use it as they wish. If that means driving it every day, great. If that means sticking it in a garage and increasing the paint thickness with polish, great. Worrying about future values all the time for something like a car is thoroughly exhausting.
There was a very nice e30 M3 at my pals body shop last year. It arrived on a trailer, for a thorough inspection of the paint, after a total mileage of around 1500 miles in 23 or so years. In fact, I guess it's unlikely ever to be driven ever again for fear of those little numbers creeping up? I think that's just such a waste. I also think it's a sad day when certain cars are priced out of reach of the average enthusiast, which has certainly happened with things like earlier Porsche 911/912 and e30 M3.
I have made sacrifices that maybe a lot of folk wouldn't, in order to realise one of my dreams. I'm certainly not wealthy and able not to care about how much things cost. That said, I don't drink, smoke, go clubbing or take yearly holidays. Plus my kids are all grown up and what income I work hard for means I get to play with old cars. I know that I'm lucky to have the freedom to do that.
Mind you, the depreciation on a 3 year old Aldi tdi could by something interesting and fun to drive surely?
I have made sacrifices that maybe a lot of folk wouldn't, in order to realise one of my dreams. I'm certainly not wealthy and able not to care about how much things cost. That said, I don't drink, smoke, go clubbing or take yearly holidays. Plus my kids are all grown up and what income I work hard for means I get to play with old cars. I know that I'm lucky to have the freedom to do that.
Mind you, the depreciation on a 3 year old Aldi tdi could by something interesting and fun to drive surely?
zeppelin101 said:
derin100 said:
Thirdly, it is also an unequivocal fact that the "classic car" market values low mileage. I'm not going to get into the whole age-old debate of: "I'd rather have a classic car that's been driven and has high miles than one that's been sat in garage with low miles etc, etc, etc...". It's a nonsense debate because the simple fact is that low miles DOES put a MASSIVE premium on car values whether one thinks the cars themselves are better or not.
While all this is entirely true, if you view everything as an investment then you're already down the path of not using it.Alternatively, you view the fact that your classic car which is gaining miles is, at worst, depreciating by a very small amount year-on-year. It may even still appreciate depending on the car in question.
Almost everything a person buys depreciates, so why worry excessively about impacting something's future value by enjoying it? It might matter a little bit, but frankly I'm sure many people on here buy cars for their personal enjoyment of them, not the enjoyment of a future owner who has a 10k mile minter.
Personally I'd rather see the current owner use it as they wish. If that means driving it every day, great. If that means sticking it in a garage and increasing the paint thickness with polish, great. Worrying about future values all the time for something like a car is thoroughly exhausting.
It is also definitely true that there is galling sense (and it is also, as you say, thoroughly exhausting) that one is doing it so that the next person ends up enjoying it rather than the "gain" of enjoying it oneself. However, one mustn't forget that one might be doing it for "gain" (again, in the broadest sense) of another type?
If I can offer two examples to take both sides of the argument further....and I don't disagree that there are two sides:
1) Take my own case:
I could drive and enjoy the car I mentioned earlier, rack-up the miles and hang the consequences. It'll still be a nice car and it would still take a very long time to wear it out.
But then there's a price to pay. I will undoubtedly have shaved £Thousands off the monetary value. The "cost" might then come in the form of "regret". I'd even go so far as to say, in my case, pangs of "guilt". In having done so, I might "regret" that with one child going to University this year and two more following him next year that I wasn't in a position to help them more financially through University because of the money I shaved off the car by driving it. Most people will have their own examples of what they could or should have used the money for?
For sure, I don't want to ever have to sell my car. However, as I can't act solely for myself, I am nowhere near enjoying the luxury of knowing for sure that I won't have to in the future. As it would be for many of us, I suspect, it is potentially a major asset to me that I realise I may one day in the future have to regrettably liquidate. Unfortunately, I remain constantly cognisant of that and it's this that holds me back from "driving" it. (That said, with all of this talk, I might take it out this afternoon!
2) This brings me on to example 2:
This where I'd actually question why the whole "classic car market" places such an at times irrational value on vanishingly low mileage....but it does. And THIS is my point...THIS is really what stops people driving their cars.
Sure, there's a difference between something in nice condition with reasonably low miles and that isn't all worn out versus some shagged-out old dog with millions of miles of wear on every component inside and out.
In the early hours of this morning, for reasons of insomnia and boredom, I decided to look for the most expensive classic Merc SLs that I could find currently for sale, on the internet, in the U.K. I came up with these and posted them on another thread:
R129 at £45,000 : http://www.howardwisecars.co.uk/index.php/car-deta...
R107 at £86,000: http://www.howardwisecars.co.uk/index.php/classic/...
Pagoda at £140,000: http://www.howardwisecars.co.uk/index.php/classic/...
(Incidentally, those prices on the R129 and R107 have already been bested by other examples others have posted on the same thread!)
Now, take that R129 for starters. You can buy a reasonable, usuable R129 for under-£5K at the moment i.e virutally 1/10th the price of that Silver Arrow. You can buy a very nice R129 indeed for say £10K i.e less than a quarter of the price.
The R107? Well, despite recent price hikes, one can still buy a very good one for £20K. So this one is 4.5 times (!) that price or at least 3 times the price of any R107 even Charles Ironside has on offer. And he's not exactly known for selling cheap snotters? The only "reason" for trying to justify that price can be its vanishingly low mileage? Nothing else.
But then, if you are a mere mortal like most of us and you've managed to scraped together to buy your dream car and bought that what do you then do with it? Drive it? Really?!
Maybe the real answer to all of this is: "Never buy a car unless you can really actually afford to just drive it? Again, in all senses of the word "afford".
If people really stuck to that then we would see an end to all the classic car specualtion, false hyping and "investment" market overnight. We might wish it would and everyone would just buy cars they could afford to drive and just drive them but it ain't gonna happen, is it?
Coming right back to the OP...
Maybe the real answer really is as most people have said: "Mark, if it's your dream car that you have no intention of or can never see any potential instance in the future where you might have to sell it...then just drive it! In essence, its monetary value is of little consquence or relevance to you when set against its enjoyment value to you in driving it the way and to the amount you wish. You've then actually achieved a point that most of us wish we were at and have yet to reach. Good luck and enjoy!"
Applying those criteria to myself? Well, it probably explains why I drive a 13 year old car, bought for £4K as my daily driver, still feeling a twinge of "regret" and "guilt" because of my selfish decadence and really that I should be driving around in SOTW bracket cars!
e21Mark said:
There was a very nice e30 M3 at my pals body shop last year. It arrived on a trailer, for a thorough inspection of the paint, after a total mileage of around 1500 miles in 23 or so years. In fact, I guess it's unlikely ever to be driven ever again for fear of those little numbers creeping up? I think that's just such a waste. I also think it's a sad day when certain cars are priced out of reach of the average enthusiast, which has certainly happened with things like earlier Porsche 911/912 and e30 M3.
I have made sacrifices that maybe a lot of folk wouldn't, in order to realise one of my dreams. I'm certainly not wealthy and able not to care about how much things cost. That said, I don't drink, smoke, go clubbing or take yearly holidays. Plus my kids are all grown up and what income I work hard for means I get to play with old cars. I know that I'm lucky to have the freedom to do that.
Mind you, the depreciation on a 3 year old Aldi tdi could by something interesting and fun to drive surely?
I honestly hadn't seen your post Mark before writing my reply above (it too me a long time to write it!). But your post sums up what I was saying at the end.I have made sacrifices that maybe a lot of folk wouldn't, in order to realise one of my dreams. I'm certainly not wealthy and able not to care about how much things cost. That said, I don't drink, smoke, go clubbing or take yearly holidays. Plus my kids are all grown up and what income I work hard for means I get to play with old cars. I know that I'm lucky to have the freedom to do that.
Mind you, the depreciation on a 3 year old Aldi tdi could by something interesting and fun to drive surely?
I say well done to you, Sir! I your case there is no doubt you should drive and enjoy the car!
Good luck!
WeirdNeville said:
Cars are only fun when they're in motion. Sure, they can be beautiful when static, but so can a vase. Cars are so much more.
Drive it, enjoy it, use it. Cars aren't an investment unless you're also laying down wine and eyeing up Picassos.
Sadly, you're probably right. It's probably only the really high-end stuff that makes any usefully signifcant gains. And the people who can afford to purchase those are the same ones who can also afford to lay down wine and eye up Picassos.Drive it, enjoy it, use it. Cars aren't an investment unless you're also laying down wine and eyeing up Picassos.
Probably the rest of us are sadly deluded and swept along into fooling ourselves that what we have is an investment.
I still can't bring myself to drive my "investment" though for fear of shaving off the relative pittance that it might be gaining. But I seem to live my whole life in the same crippling tight manner.
derin100 said:
WeirdNeville said:
Cars are only fun when they're in motion. Sure, they can be beautiful when static, but so can a vase. Cars are so much more.
Drive it, enjoy it, use it. Cars aren't an investment unless you're also laying down wine and eyeing up Picassos.
Sadly, you're probably right. It's probably only the really high-end stuff that makes any usefully signifcant gains. And the people who can afford to purchase those are the same ones who can also afford to lay down wine and eye up Picassos.Drive it, enjoy it, use it. Cars aren't an investment unless you're also laying down wine and eyeing up Picassos.
Probably the rest of us are sadly deluded and swept along into fooling ourselves that what we have is an investment.
I still can't bring myself to drive my "investment" though for fear of shaving off the relative pittance that it might be gaining. But I seem to live my whole life in the same crippling tight manner.
Says it all really, what the hell are you saving it for?
I've always got the most out of my cars, if it ends up in a scrapyard having been perfect 2 years previously, you know you've had a good time! Having said that in 14 years I've never spent more than £1350 on a car for myself because I know how it'll end up, bottom end all over the road usually...
derin100 said:
.Maybe the real answer to all of this is: "Never buy a car unless you can really actually afford to just drive it? Again, in all senses of the word "afford".
If people really stuck to that then we would see an end to all the classic car specualtion, false hyping and "investment" market overnight. We might wish it would and everyone would just buy cars they could afford to drive and just drive them but it ain't gonna happen, is it?
That's why I really like the people and cars on the YouTube Petrolicious channel https://www.youtube.com/user/PetroliciousCo they love the cars and love driving them. If people really stuck to that then we would see an end to all the classic car specualtion, false hyping and "investment" market overnight. We might wish it would and everyone would just buy cars they could afford to drive and just drive them but it ain't gonna happen, is it?
Buying a car for investment is like buying the best coffee machine in the world, not using it and keeping it in its box. Bringing it out every now and then to clean and admire then putting it away again. All the while drinking freeze dried instant coffee.
Cotty said:
That's why I really like the people and cars on the YouTube Petrolicious channel https://www.youtube.com/user/PetroliciousCo they love the cars and love driving them.
Brilliant YouTube channel.And yes, DRIVE the E30! The investment IS the enjoyment it brings to you throughout ownership and the memories it leaves you with. No point looking back and only thinking "yeah it was nice to look at..."
A friend of mine had always wanted a 968 clubsport... test-drove plenty and eventually bought a mint condition one in his dream spec (black/black) with 30,000km on the clock. It was his 'dream car' and the plan before buying was that he would buy a good one and keep it forever.
He sold the 30k example after a few years because it spent most of the time on a trickle charger as he was worried about adding miles. I think it had 36,000km when he sold it. the ownership experience seemed stressful - the miles, worrying about stone chip and where he parked it etc.
Meaden from EVO wrote similar about his 964CS - the more the prices go up, the more pressure he feels to not drive his one - I can understand that.
I tend to buy cars which already have loads of miles on them, to avoid the whole problem of 'adding miles'. I'm hopefully going to be in the position to look at a Ferrari in the medium term and I'll be looking at ones slightly tatty cosmetically but in good mechanical condition and well looked after with 'spaceship' miles so I can buy one and do 5k a year in it without counting the 'loses' every time I drive it. the previous owner will already have taken the hit for the miles. A bit like the guy that bought the 105k miles 550, I expect he can do 20,000 miles in it and the resale price won't be massively effected, rather than someone with a 30 or 40k example.
As I believe in using cars, rarity and spare parts would worry me more than miles. Because of that I probably wouldn't buy something like the E30 M3 or a lotus carlton or audi RS2 as they are getting hard to get specific parts for. I'd rather get a leggy F355 or 360 and use it often.
He sold the 30k example after a few years because it spent most of the time on a trickle charger as he was worried about adding miles. I think it had 36,000km when he sold it. the ownership experience seemed stressful - the miles, worrying about stone chip and where he parked it etc.
Meaden from EVO wrote similar about his 964CS - the more the prices go up, the more pressure he feels to not drive his one - I can understand that.
I tend to buy cars which already have loads of miles on them, to avoid the whole problem of 'adding miles'. I'm hopefully going to be in the position to look at a Ferrari in the medium term and I'll be looking at ones slightly tatty cosmetically but in good mechanical condition and well looked after with 'spaceship' miles so I can buy one and do 5k a year in it without counting the 'loses' every time I drive it. the previous owner will already have taken the hit for the miles. A bit like the guy that bought the 105k miles 550, I expect he can do 20,000 miles in it and the resale price won't be massively effected, rather than someone with a 30 or 40k example.
As I believe in using cars, rarity and spare parts would worry me more than miles. Because of that I probably wouldn't buy something like the E30 M3 or a lotus carlton or audi RS2 as they are getting hard to get specific parts for. I'd rather get a leggy F355 or 360 and use it often.
The only ‘stupid’ in my opinion is the person that doesn’t drive their “toy” as often as possible. Other than not driving a rust prone car on the heavily salted winter roads I can’t see any reason why you would not drive such a car in the manner it is intended to be driven as often as possible, miles or smiles your choice. Of course keep it clean and shiny but there is no reason not to drive them. It’s in a similar vein to cars at shows that turn up and leave on trailers – it makes me sad.
I have never thought about cars as an investment and actively laugh when people say, ohh those miles will affect the resale, or you'll struggle to sell it... because I genuinely don't care.
But then I am the kind of person that given the space and the funds would buy a mint or easily restorable matching numbers classic American car, throw the engine etc. in the bin (or sell the bits that are saleable). Bung a big block V8 in, MSA spec roll cage etc. in it and go racing and I’d positively enjoy telling everybody on the owners club about it
Its why I loved the Fast ‘n’ Loud F40 – a big fat middle finger at the purists.
I often wonder if many of these cars are kept as an investment to keep ‘her indoors’ happy:
Bloke: “if I keep the mileage down a car of this era won’t depreciate dear, meaning I can get back what I paid for it, possibly even more”
Her indoors: “Ohh go on then, you can always sell it again and put the money back in the bank”
Bloke walks out with the hollow victory in his head to buy said ‘investment’ whilst the wife sits there thinking that this car will be an embarrassment because it’s a ‘midlife crisis’ and because the car is older than Julie at works new Micra, it’s a very similar situation to the angry dad in a ‘sporty’ people carrier whereby those not allowed to use their cars all the time are just jealous and manifest that in some rubbish about a gentle trundle, wash, polish and put away for next month.
I am sure there are plenty genuine collectors who don’t fit the above mould but unless they have lots of cars to choose from (Jay Leno for example) imho there is no reason for not driving the cars as often as possible and in the manner it was intended to be driven.
Also one is often constrained on mileage on classic insurance policies.
At the end of the day:
Buy it, Build it, drive it, spank it, race it; trailer queens suck.
I have never thought about cars as an investment and actively laugh when people say, ohh those miles will affect the resale, or you'll struggle to sell it... because I genuinely don't care.
But then I am the kind of person that given the space and the funds would buy a mint or easily restorable matching numbers classic American car, throw the engine etc. in the bin (or sell the bits that are saleable). Bung a big block V8 in, MSA spec roll cage etc. in it and go racing and I’d positively enjoy telling everybody on the owners club about it
Its why I loved the Fast ‘n’ Loud F40 – a big fat middle finger at the purists.
I often wonder if many of these cars are kept as an investment to keep ‘her indoors’ happy:
Bloke: “if I keep the mileage down a car of this era won’t depreciate dear, meaning I can get back what I paid for it, possibly even more”
Her indoors: “Ohh go on then, you can always sell it again and put the money back in the bank”
Bloke walks out with the hollow victory in his head to buy said ‘investment’ whilst the wife sits there thinking that this car will be an embarrassment because it’s a ‘midlife crisis’ and because the car is older than Julie at works new Micra, it’s a very similar situation to the angry dad in a ‘sporty’ people carrier whereby those not allowed to use their cars all the time are just jealous and manifest that in some rubbish about a gentle trundle, wash, polish and put away for next month.
I am sure there are plenty genuine collectors who don’t fit the above mould but unless they have lots of cars to choose from (Jay Leno for example) imho there is no reason for not driving the cars as often as possible and in the manner it was intended to be driven.
Also one is often constrained on mileage on classic insurance policies.
At the end of the day:
Buy it, Build it, drive it, spank it, race it; trailer queens suck.
Cotty said:
derin100 said:
.Maybe the real answer to all of this is: "Never buy a car unless you can really actually afford to just drive it? Again, in all senses of the word "afford".
If people really stuck to that then we would see an end to all the classic car specualtion, false hyping and "investment" market overnight. We might wish it would and everyone would just buy cars they could afford to drive and just drive them but it ain't gonna happen, is it?
That's why I really like the people and cars on the YouTube Petrolicious channel https://www.youtube.com/user/PetroliciousCo they love the cars and love driving them. If people really stuck to that then we would see an end to all the classic car specualtion, false hyping and "investment" market overnight. We might wish it would and everyone would just buy cars they could afford to drive and just drive them but it ain't gonna happen, is it?
Proper enthusiasts. Do love the Petrolicious videos.
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