New TVR spec

Author
Discussion

900T-R

20,404 posts

256 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
quotequote all
DonkeyApple said:
Secondly, and this from a core objective is a bad thing but I think in reality a very good thing and that is that TVR has no relevant overseas market. There won't be integral demand from key markets such as China, Russia, the ME etc. that means they don't have to compromise in design. You only have to look at cars like Ferraris to see that they have gone from sleek, stylish, Italian design to much more clumsy shapes as they have had to build with the size, shape and crass desires of their consumers. TVRs key market is England. The product will be built to appeal to a segment of the English market.
Spot on, although IMO you'd have to add all of the 'traditional' European markets that have a sports car/driving tradition and a strong Anglophile petrolhead community (i.e. Benelux, Germany/Switzerland/Austria, Italy, France) AND I'd say most of - for instance - the folks turning way from 'modern' Porsches to re-imagining old aircooled ones are rather younger than 55, with even a simple build based on an SC or 3.2 Carrera coming into the high end of five figures. Similarly the folks who have Griffs with agreed valuations in excess of 50.000 euro (which means they spent rather more than that biggrin) seem to be about my age or slightly younger, rather than pensionados, too...

It's not so much a nostalgia market, I feel, as a quest for authenticity, undiluted excitement, bespokeness and personal involvement and lasting value, just like the market for vinyl records and paraphernalia has been thriving not in spite, but because of downloads/streaming becoming the norm. I can assure you many of those vinylheads with very serious hardware are rather too young to have been into LPs before 1983...

macdeb

8,493 posts

254 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
quotequote all
Don1 said:
jamieduff1981 said:
macdeb said:
RE; the Jag/Cerb' thing.
I'd rather be seen in the Cerbera than the Jag shown, I mean look at them!
The new car just HAS to look like a TVR at the very least.
Meaning?
He is making a differentiation between the Jaguar and the TVR, saying in his opinion, the TVR is much nicer.

He is also of the hope that the new TVR has the same visual DNA of the older models.

(Sorry for paraphrasing).
yes

macdeb

8,493 posts

254 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
quotequote all
HarryW said:
jamieduff1981 said:
macdeb said:
RE; the Jag/Cerb' thing.
I'd rather be seen in the Cerbera than the Jag shown, I mean look at them!
The new car just HAS to look like a TVR at the very least.
Meaning?
I think he said the new car has to look like a TVR at the very least........it needs be instantly recognisable, it has to have the DNA. I think.....
yes Not a souped up 4 door saloon please Edgar.

Edited by macdeb on Tuesday 29th July 09:35

900T-R

20,404 posts

256 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
quotequote all
Hand on heart, for a modern 'mainstream'car I think the F-type looks absolutely spectacular but park one next to an E-type or Cerbera and you can see it suffering for pretty much all legislation and target market-induced maladies... too big, lots of 'character lines', big wheels, big lights etc. to hide the bulk of its volume, too fussy, not a simple, flowing shape - a classic, timeless beauty it is not, especially the convertible.

IMO there is no way a truly beautiful car will be built from a mainstream manufacturer having to comply with the above, in the current framework - hence the drive towards 'modern(ish) classics.

RichardD

3,560 posts

244 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
quotequote all
900T-R said:
...'mass produced' sports/GT car results in immediate loss of shirt ....
Pardon the selective edit, that point though imho, for used cars must too be quite relavent.

I did have a look fairly recently at what AMG Mercs were available for TVR sort of money and the answer was a LOT of car, far more than however much TVR would be available for the same cash.

Ignoring fuel, road tax and even things such as brakes and tyres - one big thing for such vehicles is how well do the toys age?
If two cars have similar levels of toys, one a simple car with minimal toys, the other a more advanced car with toys that don't work anymore - isn't the simple car more attractive, as having extra features that don't work being the greater negative?

Will we see in twenty years time car restoration shows where Gordon the gimmer is brought great joy because some specialists in a shed get his pile massaga-ventilators working again on his AMG SLS DSLR C64 BluBlack edition?

Regarding chassis, we should separate off complexity and technology imho.

1) Find company that makes bath tubs
2) Design extra wide bath tub.
3) Make bath tub shallower
4) Make bath tub out of structural CF.

Ta da, one McLaren-a-like chassis tub for a new TVR (just add front & rear subframes) smile



Edited by RichardD on Tuesday 29th July 09:48

Rochester TVR

3,313 posts

205 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
quotequote all
I don't think for one minute TVR will be trying to compete with the likes of Jag, Aston Martin or Porsche etc... Their products have millions of pounds of R&D that TVR will never be able to compete with meaning that their technological advancements will not be of concern to the customer base that TVR will be aiming for.

The world may have moved on from when the Cerbera was about but that world of quirky 'affordable' performance cars still exists. The Lotus Evora, Morgan Aero, Alfa 4C

Stick a TVR badge on the bonnet and a Cerbera 8.4 badge on the back of this and I reckon you'd be hard pushed to perfect what a modern Cerbera should be.







Edit: fk me this Viper is a monster! 8.4 litre, V10, 640bhp and a manual gearbox! I want one!

Edited by Rochester TVR on Tuesday 29th July 09:57

900T-R

20,404 posts

256 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
quotequote all
If only you could downscale it by 1:1.2 or so... biggrin

Rochester TVR

3,313 posts

205 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
quotequote all
900T-R said:
If only you could downscale it by 1:1.2 or so... biggrin
It would seem that way but check out the dims below.

Viper SRT vs Jag V8S Coupe

Length: 4463 - 4470
Width: 1941 - 1923 (ex mirrors)
Height: 1246 - 1319
Weight: 1521 - 1594 (or Viper 1507 with LW wheels)

I don't know if I'm more surprised at how small the Viper is in comparison or how big the Jag is...

900T-R

20,404 posts

256 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
quotequote all
Rochester TVR said:
I don't know if I'm more surprised at how small the Viper is in comparison or how big the Jag is...
They'd both do well to keep off the pies for awhile then. biggrin

Especially the width of either seems a bit of an unfortunate characteristic for the average country road...

jamieduff1981

8,022 posts

139 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
quotequote all
macdeb said:
HarryW said:
jamieduff1981 said:
macdeb said:
RE; the Jag/Cerb' thing.
I'd rather be seen in the Cerbera than the Jag shown, I mean look at them!
The new car just HAS to look like a TVR at the very least.
Meaning?
I think he said the new car has to look like a TVR at the very least........it needs be instantly recognisable, it has to have the DNA. I think.....
yes Not a souped up 4 door saloon please Edgar.

Edited by macdeb on Tuesday 29th July 09:35
Fair enough - I don't own an F-Type (yet) but do have that family car which is my wife's daily driver. She'd love a sleek coupe but we do have 2 kids to cart about. They fit in the Cerbera but it's not ideal on a rainy day to stand faffing about reaching in to the back and driving position has to give a little too. The parallel I was attempting to draw was that if the way the XFRS drives, using the same slushbox auto setup and steering rack as the F-Type is about as fun and rewarding as it's possible to imagine a 4 door family car being. It's unlikely that the F-Type is worse to drive and therefore (as agreed by many journalists) it should be an absolute hoot to drive.

I wasn't advocating that TVR should build family cars, nor that that was what I looked for in a sports car. What I was getting at is that the slushbox in the F-Type (the comment that spurred my initial reply) is immensely good and does allow the driver to get suitably involved and make pops and crackles on demand. It's absolutely not a lazy gearbox which kicks down 2 seconds after trying to feed power in after an apex. It's brilliant.

macdeb

8,493 posts

254 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
quotequote all
jamieduff1981 said:
Fair enough - I don't own an F-Type (yet) but do have that family car which is my wife's daily driver. She'd love a sleek coupe but we do have 2 kids to cart about. They fit in the Cerbera but it's not ideal on a rainy day to stand faffing about reaching in to the back and driving position has to give a little too. The parallel I was attempting to draw was that if the way the XFRS drives, using the same slushbox auto setup and steering rack as the F-Type is about as fun and rewarding as it's possible to imagine a 4 door family car being. It's unlikely that the F-Type is worse to drive and therefore (as agreed by many journalists) it should be an absolute hoot to drive.

I wasn't advocating that TVR should build family cars, nor that that was what I looked for in a sports car. What I was getting at is that the slushbox in the F-Type (the comment that spurred my initial reply) is immensely good and does allow the driver to get suitably involved and make pops and crackles on demand. It's absolutely not a lazy gearbox which kicks down 2 seconds after trying to feed power in after an apex. It's brilliant.
yes I know mate, as a daily driver I should think you'd be hard pressed to beat the equipment you have. hippy
I just sooooo, hope the new one is special. I remember first seeing Griffith, Chimaera and Cerbera and was instantly impressed. thumbup

macdeb

8,493 posts

254 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
quotequote all
RichardD said:
I did have a look fairly recently at what AMG Mercs were available for TVR sort of money and the answer was a LOT of car, far more than however much TVR would be available for the same cash.



Edited by RichardD on Tuesday 29th July 09:48
I did similar couple of years ago as those AMG's are special, I drove one and was impressed. I thought my missus could drive it as she refuses to drive the TVR [good? bad?,,,,,, definitely good!] But am pleased I stuck with what I have as it is instantly recognisable in a crowded car park and still gets a universal thumbs up from joe public, which is nice.
ETA I have the car for me and not others, but it's a plus others like it.

RichardD

3,560 posts

244 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
quotequote all
macdeb said:
I did similar couple of years ago as those AMG's are special, I drove one and was impressed. I thought my missus could drive it as she refuses to drive the TVR [good? bad?,,,,,, definitely good!] But am pleased I stuck with what I have as it is instantly recognisable in a crowded car park and still gets a universal thumbs up from joe public, which is nice.
ETA I have the car for me and not others, but it's a plus others like it.
They are magnificent machines when everything goes well. (I was only looking purely as to what happens to values with age). After my earlier post I saw the below!

In General Gassing davidn said:
No denying they are fabulous cars and 500bhp for under £20K should be a no brainer and you sound like you're going in to this with your eyes open which is a good thing obviously. I thought much the same when I bought my 2002 500sl £36K with 32,000 on the clock, full Merc history and one owner from new. Over the 4 years I owned it my failures pretty much followed the time line described on most of the dedicated forums, such as:

ABC pump failed, lost all it's fluid, still driveable but drove like a 70's American crusier wobbling and bouncing all over the place. £1,500 for a new pump fitted, lasted a week, lost all it's fluid again but due to a blanking plug firing out under pressure, obviously replaced FOC.

SBS pump failed locking the brakes solid, luckily on the drive. Should have been £1,200 but got full cost replacement from Merc free of charge, heard others not so lucky though and it wasn't a quick process to get them to admit the fault was well documented.

Fuel tank baffle failed. £2,000 to fix although, there are fixes available that do not require a new tank but are best described as a bodge (i.e. propping the baffle up with a coat hanger).

Gear selector jammed in park on a clients driveway blocking the whole family in until recovery arrived, requiring new selector box, think it was £800 to £1,000. Although this again can be bodged by removing the locking pawl in the selector.

Both front struts started leaking requiring replacement £3,600 the pair, you can get recons from the States but this takes time and will still nedd to be fitted by some one with a STAR machine to do the Rodeo test to fully bleed the system.

Keyless go card failed, middle of know where, middle of the night requring recovery. Card was about £130 or so supplied and programmed.

The consumer battery in the boot can fail due to lack of use and plays havoc with the electric's can be had for about £100 and can be fitted yourself without any fancy dealer computers. But check for warning message on dash, usually "Consumer Unit Offline".

Discs and pads, all 4 neeed replacing but this is a consumable and DIYable like any car, total cost around £600 so reasonable.

Xenon igniter failed in headlight, replacement about £80 although if main controller goes this is integral to light unit requiring full replacement £800 a side. Usually when one goes the other isn't far behind.

Glass trim pieces either side of back window delaminate and go milky, Again diyable and about £200 all in. Merc's response was nne of their customers leave their SL's out in the rain!

Final failure was my own fault, moved passenger seat back and a can of Red Bull that had rolled under exploded frying the electric and disabling airbags, seat belt pretentioners etc. with accompanying warning lights. Can't remember the cost but definitely more than the cost of replacing the Red Bull.

Got shot of it before back struts decided to piss themselves, sold for £12,000, full merc history, 72,000 miles, new wheels and tyres all round plus AMG full exhaust.

All of the above may or may not happen to all cars but they are (very) common failures on these cars. But if like me your heart is/was set on one they are hard to resist at the price.
Which adds to the thinking of simplicity = more longer term value smile.

900T-R

20,404 posts

256 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
quotequote all
jamieduff1981 said:
I wasn't advocating that TVR should build family cars, nor that that was what I looked for in a sports car. What I was getting at is that the slushbox in the F-Type (the comment that spurred my initial reply) is immensely good and does allow the driver to get suitably involved and make pops and crackles on demand. It's absolutely not a lazy gearbox which kicks down 2 seconds after trying to feed power in after an apex. It's brilliant.
Well I've driven loads of cars with the same ZF eight speeder in many different configurations now and while I agree it is a very impressive piece of kit that does its thing to perfection, there's no denying that when it comes to fully savouring a proper engine, you're Always aware that it does add a layer of disconnection. After about 15 minutes of playing with the paddles you just tend to leave it to its own devices. Perfect for a big saloon or SUV or making a 4 cilinder diesel in your 5-series that bit more palatable, but any car fitted with one cannot ber a true sports car in the sense of providing the maximum of interaction between driver and the mechanics. GT yes, sports car no. Just my opinion but I can't see the point of owning a sports car with one.

The TVR shift action - no matter whether LT77 or T5 - is exactly what I want - not quick but it gives a delightfully mechanical and sturdy feel. If I cared about the auto version being a fraction of a second quicker, I'd be racing instead.

RobertoBlanco

265 posts

128 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
900T-R said:
You're missing the point by a country mile. We're so bored of overweight, over-teched, overhyped cars that are very efficient at going around a certain mountain road in the Eifel but mainly because every single input of the driver is being doctored and meddled with, as is the feedback (in case of the latest 911 - what feedback?) to the driver. The F-Type superficially does a nice impression of good old extrovert TVR but it's a 1.7 ton slushbox auto FFS!

The 'purist' alternative on the current market is just as unattractive - stripped-out track specials that look like they are designed by a 12 year old boy, have no interior to speak of and dynamically are best left on the track.

That leaves Morgans (a bit quaint and drafty/claustrophobic with the hood up), and 'reimagined' old Porsches and E-types that cost 4x what a new TVR would cost, and have all the basic '60s compromises as a starting point as genuine alternatives...
Spot on. I would add, that the "new" Les Edgar TVR shouldn't do anything everyone else does. We don't need another F-Type, 911, X-Bow or Radical. I take TVR as being "original" and true to their style/heritage. I wouldn't buy a TVR that can only be identified by the badge as TVR. You have to see, feel, hear (maybe even smell?) that the new car is a true TVR.
So for me no mainstream GT or extreme single seater track tool, but a puristic road car not being build as a daily driver, but b-roads fun car.

If you build a car too perfect, it becomes boring and normal. When I want normal, i buy a TT or C-class as a daily driver.

DonkeyApple

54,934 posts

168 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
RobertoBlanco said:
900T-R said:
You're missing the point by a country mile. We're so bored of overweight, over-teched, overhyped cars that are very efficient at going around a certain mountain road in the Eifel but mainly because every single input of the driver is being doctored and meddled with, as is the feedback (in case of the latest 911 - what feedback?) to the driver. The F-Type superficially does a nice impression of good old extrovert TVR but it's a 1.7 ton slushbox auto FFS!

The 'purist' alternative on the current market is just as unattractive - stripped-out track specials that look like they are designed by a 12 year old boy, have no interior to speak of and dynamically are best left on the track.

That leaves Morgans (a bit quaint and drafty/claustrophobic with the hood up), and 'reimagined' old Porsches and E-types that cost 4x what a new TVR would cost, and have all the basic '60s compromises as a starting point as genuine alternatives...
Spot on. I would add, that the "new" Les Edgar TVR shouldn't do anything everyone else does. We don't need another F-Type, 911, X-Bow or Radical. I take TVR as being "original" and true to their style/heritage. I wouldn't buy a TVR that can only be identified by the badge as TVR. You have to see, feel, hear (maybe even smell?) that the new car is a true TVR.
So for me no mainstream GT or extreme single seater track tool, but a puristic road car not being build as a daily driver, but b-roads fun car.

If you build a car too perfect, it becomes boring and normal. When I want normal, i buy a TT or C-class as a daily driver.
I agree entirely with both posts.

There is no shortage of track specialist cars and no shortage of lovely GTs pretending to be sports cars and modern sports cars which are as well designed/built and easy to live with as a road warrior's fleet car.

If they want TVR to be a multinational, volume seller then they will need to join that latter sector. They will need to go overweight, fit electric seats with massaging, fit an electric roof, an electric neck protecting device, a system to pass the seatbelt for those too fat to get their arm around their body, an electric gearbox for those too busy to savour the mechanical delight of changing a gear, automatic wipe for those who can't tell if its raining, automatic lights for those who can't tell day from night, lane departure warnings for those who can't hold a steering wheel, cruise control for those who find keeping a foot on a pedal too much hard work. The list is endless of gubbins that fit very nicely into a luxury saloon or SUV but serve to remove the 'sport' from sportscar.

The TVR brand is a glorious opportunity to build a car that puts the sport back. It doesn't need to handle like a Lotus or be faster than a Ferrari. It just needs to be a road car that reconnects the driver with the road. A car that turns a journey into an adventure. A car that adopts and accepts modern tech when it is beneficial but not as marketing features to sell to the Nike brigade, those that want the image of sporty but not the actual sport.

The big problem though is that TVRs are expected to be cheap which will be difficult if they want to avoid the errors of the past. But while Wheeler made some really bad decisions with the brand I think he was right in understanding who his typical customer was and that they were extremely price sensitive.

Any new business is going to have to be really smart in the product they deliver to find enough Brits to part with big sums for the product when there are classic cars and mass produced cars either side that offer brand and image stability (whatever people say, no one ever wants to be the owner of a Beetamax) as well as either nostalgia or the modern driving experience.

maxsupertramp

13 posts

166 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
WolfyJones said:
What would you like?

Me,


Price around 80k
Ltd edition modern hardcore track version of a Sagaris
Bespoke TVR speed six engine (420/450 Bhp) (380/400 lbft)
Better protected chassis
Lightweight, max 1100 kg
Proper welded cage
6 pot brakes
Adjustable dampers
Bigger rubber
Mech LSD

That would have me putting down a deposit smile

V8 GRF

7,294 posts

209 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
DonkeyApple said:
The big problem though is that TVRs are expected to be cheap which will be difficult if they want to avoid the errors of the past. But while Wheeler made some really bad decisions with the brand I think he was right in understanding who his typical customer was and that they were extremely price sensitive.
This myth of TVRs being 'cheap' really is just that. Yes you got much more performance for a lot less money than the usual suspects but in no way were they cheap. If you run the prices of the various models over the years through inflation calculators they all come out in the £60k - £75k range in present day prices. That isn't 'cheap'

Peter Wheeler was lucky imo he didn't 'understand' his typical customer, he just built cars he wanted which luckily for him in the early '90s was what his customer wanted. Subtle but important. When he then went off later and built other cars he fancied he wasn't quite as lucky so that's when he saw the writing on the wall.

There is still a market, but it would be a mistake to think it's the same buyer as an XKF because if you want an XKF that's what you'll buy.
If however you want raw visceral experience in an over powered lightweight car capable of handling long as well as short journeys that handles without driver aids and flappy paddle gearboxes and are willing to put up with the foibles of a hand built, low volume sportscar that's where the market is for for a modern TVR similar in character to the cars of the '90s '00s (IMHO smile )

Quentin1

468 posts

243 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
If all the above ist true, there is the slight problem, that the company has to get money out of the cars.

And to be honest, as loevely as the idea is, and I am TVR through and through, with the existence of the current cars in the targeted price bracket, there are simply too many alternatives, especially the F-Type. Bash it for weight, but drive one to get the point.
I will simply put it this way:
I think those days are over, where a small sports car company can survive because a handful of enthusiasts is willing to buy their products. And as good as all your words sound, who really would splash out 70 grand on a new TVR? Even if it WOULD sound, look, drive and smell like an old TVR?

longbow

1,610 posts

234 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
As soon as I saw pics of the new Supra concept I couldn't help think that it had a lot of Sagaris DNA in there....





If this thing packs GT-R tech in a body like that and is say sub £70k then the new TVRs are going to face some mighty competition.