Getting on a train late (or off early) and being fined
Discussion
Another bit of small print which many miss, leading to possibly having to buy another ticket, is buying online. You must have the card with which the ticket was purchased, so if you've bought a ticket on behalf of someone they would need you're card to validate the ticket. Many guards don't bother on this one but the ticket nazis(I work with some of these)love it as it's a very common issue and usually involves the more easily bullied(parents buying on behalf of.....) The general laws around the whole ticketing of trains are nightmare and seemed to be in place to catch as many innocent people as possible, the serial fraudsters simply don't turn up at court!
sonarbell said:
Why is it so f*****g complicated..????
If I get on at A and want to travel to C via B. Then who gives a f**k if I can or cant get off at B !
If lots of people go from A to B, but not many go from A to C via B, then the operator decides to charge more from A to B than from A to C. So if you only want to go to B, you a fiddling their system by buying a ticket to C at a lower price knowing you have no intention of going to C. Apparently. If I get on at A and want to travel to C via B. Then who gives a f**k if I can or cant get off at B !
TwigtheWonderkid said:
sonarbell said:
Why is it so f*****g complicated..????
If I get on at A and want to travel to C via B. Then who gives a f**k if I can or cant get off at B !
If lots of people go from A to B, but not many go from A to C via B, then the operator decides to charge more from A to B than from A to C. So if you only want to go to B, you a fiddling their system by buying a ticket to C at a lower price knowing you have no intention of going to C. Apparently. If I get on at A and want to travel to C via B. Then who gives a f**k if I can or cant get off at B !
Jonleeper said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
sonarbell said:
Why is it so f*****g complicated..????
If I get on at A and want to travel to C via B. Then who gives a f**k if I can or cant get off at B !
If lots of people go from A to B, but not many go from A to C via B, then the operator decides to charge more from A to B than from A to C. So if you only want to go to B, you a fiddling their system by buying a ticket to C at a lower price knowing you have no intention of going to C. Apparently. If I get on at A and want to travel to C via B. Then who gives a f**k if I can or cant get off at B !
For an advance ticket it is cheaper but you are paying to travel a specific journey i.e ONLY travel from A to B and usually only at the specified time.
Rightly or wrongly, the train companies know which journeys are busier and which are quieter and so can set the pricing accordingly. The actual distance is less relevant.
To have more flexibility you have to buy an Anytime/Off peak ticket which still let you travel from A to B but /also/ start short or stop earlier or travel on any valid train.
It seems bonkers, but train journeys are not priced on a 'per mile' basis and probably never have been.
Rightly or wrongly, the train companies know which journeys are busier and which are quieter and so can set the pricing accordingly. The actual distance is less relevant.
To have more flexibility you have to buy an Anytime/Off peak ticket which still let you travel from A to B but /also/ start short or stop earlier or travel on any valid train.
It seems bonkers, but train journeys are not priced on a 'per mile' basis and probably never have been.
Stoofa said:
Slitting a journey into several "small journeys" is very much allowed - you don't even need to get off the train or leave the station etc.
However you can only do this when the train would actually stop at the station where your split ticket ends.
So for example, I could travel Cambridge to London and for argument sakes there might be 8 stops in between. If it was cheaper I could buy 8 individual tickets and then remain seated on the train - so long as the train I was on actually stops at all 8 stations. If I got on an express train that didn't stop, or a fast train that only stops at 5 of the 8 stations then I'd have invalid tickets.
They did similar on a Watchdog episode earlier this year where around 30%-60% could be saved on some of the more popular journeys if you purchased split-tickets for the journey.
The trick is making sure you could alight at the terminal point of each ticket if you wanted to - that way you have valid tiickets for the entire journey.
Problem is that if you have to change trains but the first leg is delayed and you miss your connection the rest of the tickets become invalid. Also and any compensation the train company gives you will only be based on the cost of that first ticketHowever you can only do this when the train would actually stop at the station where your split ticket ends.
So for example, I could travel Cambridge to London and for argument sakes there might be 8 stops in between. If it was cheaper I could buy 8 individual tickets and then remain seated on the train - so long as the train I was on actually stops at all 8 stations. If I got on an express train that didn't stop, or a fast train that only stops at 5 of the 8 stations then I'd have invalid tickets.
They did similar on a Watchdog episode earlier this year where around 30%-60% could be saved on some of the more popular journeys if you purchased split-tickets for the journey.
The trick is making sure you could alight at the terminal point of each ticket if you wanted to - that way you have valid tiickets for the entire journey.
elanfan said:
You need to read and understand the thread quoted above. You can receive a CRIMINAL conviction from what is a private company employing the ticket inspectors - there is NO not guilty plea possible as it is an absolute offence.
Ridiculous isn't it - please complain to your MP to repeal these archaic laws.
That is a completely different scenario. The rail company was deprived of the additional fare (all £1 of it). If your daughter had done this intentionally, it would have been fraud.Ridiculous isn't it - please complain to your MP to repeal these archaic laws.
ninja-lewis said:
The operator would argue that a) the passenger is avoiding a more expensive fare (a common reason for starting/stopping at an intermediate station) and/or b) it denies them the ability to sell the same seat to another passenger for the unused part of the journey. Hence make it a condition of the ticket's validity that the passenger boards/detrains at the agreed stations.
I fined this quite interesting. If this is the case, by extension, they would want to fine me if I bought the ticket but chose not to travel at all.What happens if at the start of a long journey I receive an emergency phone call, family member has a heart attack for example, I would be "fined" for alighting the train at the second stop?
LawrenceR said:
ninja-lewis said:
The operator would argue that a) the passenger is avoiding a more expensive fare (a common reason for starting/stopping at an intermediate station) and/or b) it denies them the ability to sell the same seat to another passenger for the unused part of the journey. Hence make it a condition of the ticket's validity that the passenger boards/detrains at the agreed stations.
I fined this quite interesting. If this is the case, by extension, they would want to fine me if I bought the ticket but chose not to travel at all.What happens if at the start of a long journey I receive an emergency phone call, family member has a heart attack for example, I would be "fined" for alighting the train at the second stop?
Slightly off topic, but got me thinking last night.
If Mr Smith booked all seats on a low fare plane at £1.00 ea, knowing he would be the only one on the plane but put random names and passports in..
Could they put someone else on the plane in the empty seats and would he be able to complain as he has in effect a contract for all seats whether people turn up or not.
Hope this makes sense!
If Mr Smith booked all seats on a low fare plane at £1.00 ea, knowing he would be the only one on the plane but put random names and passports in..
Could they put someone else on the plane in the empty seats and would he be able to complain as he has in effect a contract for all seats whether people turn up or not.
Hope this makes sense!
Entering in to tightly bound restrictive 'contracts' whereby you can be fined with backing by criminal law just for using public transport?
Sign of the times, which probably as a result of the typical British attitude of whinging but doing little about it to solve the issue.
And one of a number of reasons why I can't remember the last time I used public transport.
Its literally been well over a decade ago when I last got on a train.
Sign of the times, which probably as a result of the typical British attitude of whinging but doing little about it to solve the issue.
And one of a number of reasons why I can't remember the last time I used public transport.
Its literally been well over a decade ago when I last got on a train.
A205GTI said:
Slightly off topic, but got me thinking last night.
If Mr Smith booked all seats on a low fare plane at £1.00 ea, knowing he would be the only one on the plane but put random names and passports in..
Could they put someone else on the plane in the empty seats and would he be able to complain as he has in effect a contract for all seats whether people turn up or not.
Hope this makes sense!
Pretty sure when the fake Mr Smith's don't check in and show their passports the seats get contractually released.If Mr Smith booked all seats on a low fare plane at £1.00 ea, knowing he would be the only one on the plane but put random names and passports in..
Could they put someone else on the plane in the empty seats and would he be able to complain as he has in effect a contract for all seats whether people turn up or not.
Hope this makes sense!
Only a small number of seats will be £1 and then it will quickly go up as the plane gets full.
I doubt the airline would care either way, they'd make more money from the empty seats as they'd use less fuel ..
essayer said:
I doubt the airline would care either way, they'd make more money from the empty seats as they'd use less fuel ..
On top of that...its not uncommon for airlines to sell your already paid for seats to other people, leaving you to turn up to check-in to find that your seat that you paid for is not available.
AA999 said:
And one of a number of reasons why I can't remember the last time I used public transport.
Its literally been well over a decade ago when I last got on a train.
But off peak journeys booked on the train line are so cheap, you just can't help but use them. My wife and son are off to stay with friends in Sheringham next week. From London, 2 return tickets came to under £20. Given that you'd wear out a pair of trainers doing that trek, it is literally cheaper than walking!Its literally been well over a decade ago when I last got on a train.
Sort of related question.
Friend of mine recently got on the train, a localish journey, (25mins by car) or so.
They haven't been on a train for 4-5 years, when they had done in the past they had paid the conductor on the train, they offered to pay the fare to the conductor.
Apparently the conductor got quite arsey with them, requested their details & fined them for not having a ticket, they accept it was their fault, but due to not having used trains for sometime were unaware of the buy a ticket before hand rule. (I wasn't until the end of last year).
Plus the local station they would of boarded doesn't have ticket barriers, so it's not like they jumped the barrier.
I think the fine was considerably more than the journey cost.
My question was, why not give a fictitious name & address?!
Friend of mine recently got on the train, a localish journey, (25mins by car) or so.
They haven't been on a train for 4-5 years, when they had done in the past they had paid the conductor on the train, they offered to pay the fare to the conductor.
Apparently the conductor got quite arsey with them, requested their details & fined them for not having a ticket, they accept it was their fault, but due to not having used trains for sometime were unaware of the buy a ticket before hand rule. (I wasn't until the end of last year).
Plus the local station they would of boarded doesn't have ticket barriers, so it's not like they jumped the barrier.
I think the fine was considerably more than the journey cost.
My question was, why not give a fictitious name & address?!
You have always had to buy a ticket before boarding, where possible. If it is an unstaffed station with no ticket office and no ticket machine, or you only had a card and the ticket machine was only accepting cash, etc, you could buy from the guard if there was one or at your destination if there wasn't.
Sounds like they got a penalty fare which is an on the spot way of dealing with it instead of having to go to court where they would definitely have been found guilty.
OTOH there is a ridiculous situation on services where a guard will happily sell you a ticket (and get commission) but if you meet a revenue inspector on the same service he will issue you with a penalty for not having that ticket. I don't think that's right at all.
You can of course lie about name and address - these are supposedly checked against the electoral register, but if you really want to be a scrote and dodge what the law requires you to do then all power to you.
Sounds like they got a penalty fare which is an on the spot way of dealing with it instead of having to go to court where they would definitely have been found guilty.
OTOH there is a ridiculous situation on services where a guard will happily sell you a ticket (and get commission) but if you meet a revenue inspector on the same service he will issue you with a penalty for not having that ticket. I don't think that's right at all.
You can of course lie about name and address - these are supposedly checked against the electoral register, but if you really want to be a scrote and dodge what the law requires you to do then all power to you.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
This is nothing new. On the Train Line, London to Norwich, about £35. London to Sheringham, changing at Norwich, about £10. If they catch you leaving the station at Norwich on a Sheringham ticket, they go mental. Fortunately I've never been caught, but I know someone who has.
Same scenario with London the Chester being 3 times the price of London to Hollyhead, changing at Chester.
Just claim you are ill and are off to A&E. Same scenario with London the Chester being 3 times the price of London to Hollyhead, changing at Chester.
This sort of things forms part of my regular commute.
A return standard ticket from my local station to London costs somewhere in the region of £48.
A return to Aldershot, not via London, costs £20.30 and a Zone 1-2 Travelcard with a Clapham Junction extension (to take me up to the 'not via London' boundary) costs £9 so both together comes to the grand total of £29.30 with the benefit of a Travelcard rather than just the train journey. It's quite a well known ticket on my journey, all the conductors know about it and I was originally told about it by the chap working in the ticket office who sold it to me in the first place!
It's still more expensive than driving and is always delayed but at least I get the feeling I'm getting one over on the Man!
A return standard ticket from my local station to London costs somewhere in the region of £48.
A return to Aldershot, not via London, costs £20.30 and a Zone 1-2 Travelcard with a Clapham Junction extension (to take me up to the 'not via London' boundary) costs £9 so both together comes to the grand total of £29.30 with the benefit of a Travelcard rather than just the train journey. It's quite a well known ticket on my journey, all the conductors know about it and I was originally told about it by the chap working in the ticket office who sold it to me in the first place!
It's still more expensive than driving and is always delayed but at least I get the feeling I'm getting one over on the Man!
W124Bob said:
Another bit of small print which many miss, leading to possibly having to buy another ticket, is buying online. You must have the card with which the ticket was purchased, so if you've bought a ticket on behalf of someone they would need you're card to validate the ticket.
Hmmm..I think you're confusing the issue of needing the card in order to collect the tickets. You don't need if, for example, the tickets were posted to you.Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff