Discussion
I quite fancy a fun dinghy to race.
To give you some background, my keelboat is not a natural racer and isn't the hardest physical workout to sail, and my gf and I were discussing the idea of getting something a bit faster and more physically demanding to make racing a bit more fun and involved.
Where I'm based (Loch Lomond) there is quite a strong flying fifteen fleet but I'm not mad on those (maybe once I'm a bit older
) and a broad mix of dinghies, from a 49er to a Moth to some Canoes etc etc so there's no 'club' boat that I could get that would mean competitive racing and a big turnout at weekends.
So it's an open goal basically. The only thing I don't really care about it whether it can double as a day sailor as we have the bigger boat for that, so this can entirely be a focussed speed machine.
My thoughts:
1. Must be ideal with a crew of two
2. Must be able to sail it solo if needed
3. Must be fast
4. Trapeze a bonus (never tried it but looks ace)
5. Any other thoughts I've missed?
I've been looking at 5o5s this weekend and they look great but open to suggestions. Something from RS?
Even a cat might be fun though I know next to nothing about them.
In terms of ability, I used to sail dinghies a lot more but recent experience has been keelboat/yacht sailing. I'm not averse to something challenging but suspect a foiling Moth would be a bit of stretch for my abilities!
To give you some background, my keelboat is not a natural racer and isn't the hardest physical workout to sail, and my gf and I were discussing the idea of getting something a bit faster and more physically demanding to make racing a bit more fun and involved.
Where I'm based (Loch Lomond) there is quite a strong flying fifteen fleet but I'm not mad on those (maybe once I'm a bit older
) and a broad mix of dinghies, from a 49er to a Moth to some Canoes etc etc so there's no 'club' boat that I could get that would mean competitive racing and a big turnout at weekends. So it's an open goal basically. The only thing I don't really care about it whether it can double as a day sailor as we have the bigger boat for that, so this can entirely be a focussed speed machine.
My thoughts:
1. Must be ideal with a crew of two
2. Must be able to sail it solo if needed
3. Must be fast
4. Trapeze a bonus (never tried it but looks ace)
5. Any other thoughts I've missed?
I've been looking at 5o5s this weekend and they look great but open to suggestions. Something from RS?
Even a cat might be fun though I know next to nothing about them.
In terms of ability, I used to sail dinghies a lot more but recent experience has been keelboat/yacht sailing. I'm not averse to something challenging but suspect a foiling Moth would be a bit of stretch for my abilities!
Thought about a B14?
Fast, fun, not too expensive and a decent one design class if you fancied regional/national championships. Plenty of fun to be had with big asymmetric kites downwind. No trapeze as such but bloody great wings to hang out on.
http://www.alan-davis.net/sites/b14/index.php?opti...
Fast, fun, not too expensive and a decent one design class if you fancied regional/national championships. Plenty of fun to be had with big asymmetric kites downwind. No trapeze as such but bloody great wings to hang out on.
http://www.alan-davis.net/sites/b14/index.php?opti...
Disastrous said:
I quite fancy a fun dinghy to race.
To give you some background, my keelboat is not a natural racer and isn't the hardest physical workout to sail, and my gf and I were discussing the idea of getting something a bit faster and more physically demanding to make racing a bit more fun and involved.
Where I'm based (Loch Lomond) there is quite a strong flying fifteen fleet but I'm not mad on those (maybe once I'm a bit older ) and a broad mix of dinghies, from a 49er to a Moth to some Canoes etc etc so there's no 'club' boat that I could get that would mean competitive racing and a big turnout at weekends.
So it's an open goal basically. The only thing I don't really care about it whether it can double as a day sailor as we have the bigger boat for that, so this can entirely be a focussed speed machine.
My thoughts:
1. Must be ideal with a crew of two
2. Must be able to sail it solo if needed
3. Must be fast
4. Trapeze a bonus (never tried it but looks ace)
5. Any other thoughts I've missed?
I've been looking at 5o5s this weekend and they look great but open to suggestions. Something from RS?
Even a cat might be fun though I know next to nothing about them.
In terms of ability, I used to sail dinghies a lot more but recent experience has been keelboat/yacht sailing. I'm not averse to something challenging but suspect a foiling Moth would be a bit of stretch for my abilities!
The problem you have, if your requirements are a bit more set in stone, are that all the suggestions are not really viable single handers. Take out that requirement and they are all fun options!To give you some background, my keelboat is not a natural racer and isn't the hardest physical workout to sail, and my gf and I were discussing the idea of getting something a bit faster and more physically demanding to make racing a bit more fun and involved.
Where I'm based (Loch Lomond) there is quite a strong flying fifteen fleet but I'm not mad on those (maybe once I'm a bit older
) and a broad mix of dinghies, from a 49er to a Moth to some Canoes etc etc so there's no 'club' boat that I could get that would mean competitive racing and a big turnout at weekends. So it's an open goal basically. The only thing I don't really care about it whether it can double as a day sailor as we have the bigger boat for that, so this can entirely be a focussed speed machine.
My thoughts:
1. Must be ideal with a crew of two
2. Must be able to sail it solo if needed
3. Must be fast
4. Trapeze a bonus (never tried it but looks ace)
5. Any other thoughts I've missed?
I've been looking at 5o5s this weekend and they look great but open to suggestions. Something from RS?
Even a cat might be fun though I know next to nothing about them.
In terms of ability, I used to sail dinghies a lot more but recent experience has been keelboat/yacht sailing. I'm not averse to something challenging but suspect a foiling Moth would be a bit of stretch for my abilities!
If you want to single or double up, go fast, have the option of a trapeze and have the benefit of a big expanse of water, a catamaran is ideal. It will be considerably faster than any monohull on the water (that isn't using foils) so maybe worth checking if there are any other cats. It isn't quite so much fun if you are lapping everyone and have no one to match race against. Get yourself on youtube to have a look at some fun cat videos, but a Dart 18 can be had pretty cheap!
Disastrous said:
Agreed - a bit of Youtubing has made me very keen on a Dart.
Is the 16 just a bit smaller and easier to handle? How difficult are these to sail?
The main downside to a cat is the turning ability. In my opinion, you need it to have a jib, even if single handing it. Back the jib on every tack, and it turns much better. Gybe where possible, just to speed things up a bit!Is the 16 just a bit smaller and easier to handle? How difficult are these to sail?
A 16 is made from plastic. Again, check out youtube of people trying to destroy these things. They are tough tough tough, hence why sailing schools use them. They are fast, fun and pretty much unsinkable. They are also extremely buoyant in the bows so pitch-poling these is much harder (although possible if you really try!
)The 16 is 16ft, the 18 is 18ft. The 18 has much sleaker hulls (but are fibreglass so don't beach them as hard as you would a 16) and is faster by quite a margin. Always designed as a 2 man boat, but easy to pootle one up.
If you and the OH want some serious s
ts and giggles, check out the Hurricane 5.9. A twin trapeze with kite catamaran... crazy things!Wing Commander said:
Disastrous said:
Agreed - a bit of Youtubing has made me very keen on a Dart.
Is the 16 just a bit smaller and easier to handle? How difficult are these to sail?
The main downside to a cat is the turning ability. In my opinion, you need it to have a jib, even if single handing it. Back the jib on every tack, and it turns much better. Gybe where possible, just to speed things up a bit!Is the 16 just a bit smaller and easier to handle? How difficult are these to sail?
A 16 is made from plastic. Again, check out youtube of people trying to destroy these things. They are tough tough tough, hence why sailing schools use them. They are fast, fun and pretty much unsinkable. They are also extremely buoyant in the bows so pitch-poling these is much harder (although possible if you really try!
)The 16 is 16ft, the 18 is 18ft. The 18 has much sleaker hulls (but are fibreglass so don't beach them as hard as you would a 16) and is faster by quite a margin. Always designed as a 2 man boat, but easy to pootle one up.
If you and the OH want some serious s
ts and giggles, check out the Hurricane 5.9. A twin trapeze with kite catamaran... crazy things!I believe there's one of each (a 16 and an 18) at the club and certainly, the 18 was only beaten by the foiling moth at the weekend.
Interesting nugget about backing the jib. I know Cats are infamous for their reluctance to tack but having never sailed one, haven't experienced it myself or really understand why not.
In what way does backing the jib help? Does that not make it want to heave to? Or does the backed jib pull the bow around (at which point, presumably you then re-sheet to leeward)?
Disastrous said:
Wing Commander said:
Disastrous said:
Agreed - a bit of Youtubing has made me very keen on a Dart.
Is the 16 just a bit smaller and easier to handle? How difficult are these to sail?
The main downside to a cat is the turning ability. In my opinion, you need it to have a jib, even if single handing it. Back the jib on every tack, and it turns much better. Gybe where possible, just to speed things up a bit!Is the 16 just a bit smaller and easier to handle? How difficult are these to sail?
A 16 is made from plastic. Again, check out youtube of people trying to destroy these things. They are tough tough tough, hence why sailing schools use them. They are fast, fun and pretty much unsinkable. They are also extremely buoyant in the bows so pitch-poling these is much harder (although possible if you really try!
)The 16 is 16ft, the 18 is 18ft. The 18 has much sleaker hulls (but are fibreglass so don't beach them as hard as you would a 16) and is faster by quite a margin. Always designed as a 2 man boat, but easy to pootle one up.
If you and the OH want some serious s
ts and giggles, check out the Hurricane 5.9. A twin trapeze with kite catamaran... crazy things!I believe there's one of each (a 16 and an 18) at the club and certainly, the 18 was only beaten by the foiling moth at the weekend.
Interesting nugget about backing the jib. I know Cats are infamous for their reluctance to tack but having never sailed one, haven't experienced it myself or really understand why not.
In what way does backing the jib help? Does that not make it want to heave to? Or does the backed jib pull the bow around (at which point, presumably you then re-sheet to leeward)?
Sorry for the impromptue sailing lesson - sailing a cat isn't hard, but it is a slightly different technique to a monohull, so its always worth getting a few tips!
My personal opinion is that if you are just after a bit of a thrill seeking boat, a cat surely has to be up there. It is what I would get for this purpose!
Hi
I own a Dart 16 and one hull of a Hurricane 5.9 and have sailed Dart 18s and so I might be biased towards catamarans
They are all great fun, and really fast compared to pretty much any mono hull dinghy. They can also be pretty physical, and so ticks all the boxes you list.
Ref the tacking, its true that cats don't tack as quickly as mono hulls, but
a: You've enjoyed the blast to the point where you are tacking so much you don't care &
b: gybes are much more fun than on a mono hull. Having a jib does make the tacks easier.
The Dart 16 is pretty basic, heavy but indestructible, and you can sail it solo with the jib. You can also get a spinnaker kit for it - beginners boat but can still be great fun:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGL3QMVGLSg
Dart 18 is fibreglass, lighter than the 16 and quite a bit faster, you can still sail it solo (usually without the jib when single handed), no official spinnaker available
Hurricane is two up only, much more powerful, especially with the spinnaker kit and loads of fun.
Lots of other cat options in varying degrees of complexity / cost ratios, I know someone who is selling a Hoby FX-One which is another cat good for single or double handing
I own a Dart 16 and one hull of a Hurricane 5.9 and have sailed Dart 18s and so I might be biased towards catamarans
They are all great fun, and really fast compared to pretty much any mono hull dinghy. They can also be pretty physical, and so ticks all the boxes you list.
Ref the tacking, its true that cats don't tack as quickly as mono hulls, but
a: You've enjoyed the blast to the point where you are tacking so much you don't care &
b: gybes are much more fun than on a mono hull. Having a jib does make the tacks easier.
The Dart 16 is pretty basic, heavy but indestructible, and you can sail it solo with the jib. You can also get a spinnaker kit for it - beginners boat but can still be great fun:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGL3QMVGLSg
Dart 18 is fibreglass, lighter than the 16 and quite a bit faster, you can still sail it solo (usually without the jib when single handed), no official spinnaker available
Hurricane is two up only, much more powerful, especially with the spinnaker kit and loads of fun.
Lots of other cat options in varying degrees of complexity / cost ratios, I know someone who is selling a Hoby FX-One which is another cat good for single or double handing
Edited by Burrow01 on Monday 28th July 14:49
Don't apologise - that's really good to know! And makes perfect sense when you think about it...
You've got me very keen of the idea, I must say.
A pal has just suggested the 16 for starters until I'm used to handling them - are they still pretty good fun or would I regret not having the bigger one?
You've got me very keen of the idea, I must say.
A pal has just suggested the 16 for starters until I'm used to handling them - are they still pretty good fun or would I regret not having the bigger one?
I don't think you would regret getting a 16. They are perfect to get to grips with, and are modular in the sense that you can sail it single handed easily, or go two up with the trapeze, and even get a kite for it.
Very easy to sail, zero maintenance (as much as it can be zero for floaty things) and you wouldn't lose much if you were to sell it on, especially if you buy at end of season and sell at the beginning!
Very easy to sail, zero maintenance (as much as it can be zero for floaty things) and you wouldn't lose much if you were to sell it on, especially if you buy at end of season and sell at the beginning!
B14's are fantastic boats to race lovely to sail and go like stink to boot!
I have experience racing Dart 18's and Hurricane's too and would agree that the Dart is much much easier to sail and more forgiving but can still pedal remarkably well when the breeze is up.
The 5.9 is a bit of an animal in comparison but bloody hell to they fly. Probably not the best idea for a first cat though.
I have experience racing Dart 18's and Hurricane's too and would agree that the Dart is much much easier to sail and more forgiving but can still pedal remarkably well when the breeze is up.
The 5.9 is a bit of an animal in comparison but bloody hell to they fly. Probably not the best idea for a first cat though.
Wing Commander said:
The backing the jib, in my opinion, is a must. Imagine you are carrying out a standard tack. The jib and main both swap sides as the boat uses its momentum to complete the turn, using the rudder. The cats have such a low momentum and high drag from the rigging that they stop pretty much dead in the water. So, when you want to tack, you bomb along with as much speed as possible, rudder hard over, leave the jib cleated off. The boat starts to turn, the main depowers and flaps over your head as you change sides. The boat is mid tack when the jib goes from being full on one side, flaps and then fills the other way. Once it is full the other way, it just gets pushed around until your main fills. Once the main is full, you know the jib can fill too, so bring it over, maybe dump some of the main to help continue the swing around of the boat. Once aiming in the right direction, power up and off you go!
My personal opinion is that if you are just after a bit of a thrill seeking boat, a cat surely has to be up there. It is what I would get for this purpose!
Just an observation, when you initiate the tack, its best to do this with a small amount of rudder initially - if you put the rudder hard over, this will act as a brake, and may contribute to the boat lacking the momentum to tack through the wind. My personal opinion is that if you are just after a bit of a thrill seeking boat, a cat surely has to be up there. It is what I would get for this purpose!
I let off some main, start the turn and as the jib starts to back, push the rudders over some more to complete the tack, then let the jib over, then pull on some more main to kick in the power.
Ref buying a Dart 16 first, is there anywhere locally that gives lessons on a cat? As said above, the sailing technique is different, but it sounds like you know your way around a boat, so if you could get up to speed on a club / school boat, you could go straight to a Dart 18 or similar. Anything more powerful than a Dart 16 or similar would be too much to go straight to easily without some tuition.
One other thing to think about is making sure you get a boat you can right yourself when sailing solo - most of the solo cats will be OK if you are heavy enough
Burrow01 said:
Wing Commander said:
The backing the jib, in my opinion, is a must. Imagine you are carrying out a standard tack. The jib and main both swap sides as the boat uses its momentum to complete the turn, using the rudder. The cats have such a low momentum and high drag from the rigging that they stop pretty much dead in the water. So, when you want to tack, you bomb along with as much speed as possible, rudder hard over, leave the jib cleated off. The boat starts to turn, the main depowers and flaps over your head as you change sides. The boat is mid tack when the jib goes from being full on one side, flaps and then fills the other way. Once it is full the other way, it just gets pushed around until your main fills. Once the main is full, you know the jib can fill too, so bring it over, maybe dump some of the main to help continue the swing around of the boat. Once aiming in the right direction, power up and off you go!
My personal opinion is that if you are just after a bit of a thrill seeking boat, a cat surely has to be up there. It is what I would get for this purpose!
Just an observation, when you initiate the tack, its best to do this with a small amount of rudder initially - if you put the rudder hard over, this will act as a brake, and may contribute to the boat lacking the momentum to tack through the wind. My personal opinion is that if you are just after a bit of a thrill seeking boat, a cat surely has to be up there. It is what I would get for this purpose!
I let off some main, start the turn and as the jib starts to back, push the rudders over some more to complete the tack, then let the jib over, then pull on some more main to kick in the power.
Ref buying a Dart 16 first, is there anywhere locally that gives lessons on a cat? As said above, the sailing technique is different, but it sounds like you know your way around a boat, so if you could get up to speed on a club / school boat, you could go straight to a Dart 18 or similar. Anything more powerful than a Dart 16 or similar would be too much to go straight to easily without some tuition.
One other thing to think about is making sure you get a boat you can right yourself when sailing solo - most of the solo cats will be OK if you are heavy enough
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