Starting to think there is no point in trying to educate?
Discussion
yellowjack said:
I'm absolutely certain that there's no point in trying to educate the mobs of morons roaming the roads in cars, vans and lorries........
........but other than trying to set a good example I don't see how I can have a hand in educating these retards.
This is kind of my overall point ........but other than trying to set a good example I don't see how I can have a hand in educating these retards.
I think we should do something - albeit by trying to rise above the norm and set a good example! At no point do I want that phrase above on my tombstone. Believe me, I really do try to avoid the classic issues but there are times, both in London/SE and down in Glos when that option is removed from your arsenal.....
(I would add bikes to the first bit quoted also unfortunately)
I am the last to go out of my way to confront in an attempt to educate. Think the exact opposite to that warrior cyclist that dresses in black handing out yellow and red cards
(Road Droid?)Ps - I do struggle with classic bullies though, whether on foot, cycle, motorbike, car, office whatever
Edited by Slaav on Tuesday 29th July 09:04
NoNeed said:
They are already educated, trained and have sat a test to prove competence which is more than a lot of cyclists have done.
Are you for real?You're arguing for the sake of it in another thread too, and here you are shooting your mouth off before giving proper thought to what you are saying.
FACT. The Department For Transport 'standard driving test' is very much the BEGINNING of a lifetime of learning for drivers. Or at least that was what was drummed into me when I passed. It should ALWAYS be considered as being a grade of "ABSOLUTE MINIMUM". From the moment you first get the basic controls explained to you, you should be constantly seeking knowledge and self improvement. No-one knows it all, and those who think they do are the most dangerous drivers out there. I've been driving for 23 years, and cycling for over 35. I've driven vehicles from EVERY license category, and passed tests in all but one (bus). Whilst I consider myself to be of 'well above average' competence, I also recognise that there is still room for improvement.
Don't presume to lecture me about 'trained, licensed drivers' versus 'untrained, unlicensed cyclists'. Especially not in this little corner of the internet, where you should realise that almost EVERY cyclist you interact with will be a FULLY LICENSED DRIVER as well.
Another FACT. Serious accidents, and the road closures and delays that result from them are overwhelmingly caused solely by these so called "educated, trained and... ...competent" drivers failing to share space with one another. When was the last time two lanes of a busy motorway had to be coned off for the recovery of a 'multiple bicycle' crash??? When did you last see a flatbed recovery truck have to fight its way through miles of stationery bicycles to reach a broken down bicycle causing the tailbacks??? This is the truth that flies in the face of the anti-cycling brigade's bilious rhetoric. Delays are seldom caused by bicycles or their riders. When they are, they are almost always VERY BRIEF delays, and are more to do with poor road design and poor driving than they are by poor cycling, and even when poor cycling is the cause, it seldom amounts to a significant time delay. You will, on the other hand, if you use motorised road transport to any degree, spend a fairly significant chunk of your life sat in a tin box GOING NOWHERE. Sometimes it'll be 'sheer volume of traffic' (often code for 'incompetent drivers failing to cooperate effectively at junctions), but often it'll be utterly retarded idiots who have failed to meet even the most basic of competence tests, whether that be failure to check basic things like fluid levels and tyre pressures resulting in breakdowns, or an inability to judge safe distances between vehicles resulting in collisions. Note: NOT 'accidents' that are "just one of those things", but collisions caused either by INCOMPETENCE or WILLFUL DISREGARD for the rules of the road and the safety of other human beings.
Back, though to addressing your point. Which was a response to my description of how an incompetent (yet licensed) moron fails to show proper regard for a cyclist when overtaking. How is it that these "educated, trained and competent" drivers cannot be relied upon to pass another road user properly, despite the driver ahead demonstrating EXACTLY how it should be done. And why was I tooted at this morning, for NOT passing a cyclist? I was applying the highway code guidance, and holding back until the cyclist was past two closely spaced 'keep left' islands and a roundabout. I intended to pass the cyclist as soon as I judged it to be 'safe and reasonable' to do so. The driver behind me was almost purple with rage, to the point where he moved out to overtake, before he realised the two islands were what prevented me from doing the same. Explain to me why any "reasonably competent" driver would demonstrate driving skills and an attitude which fall so far below the standard expected thereof? My other problem this morning which involved a cyclist? A small van ahead of me passed a cyclist without indicating, and so close to the biker, that my opportunity to see the cyclist was reduced to the point that it was necessary to slow to match the speed of the bike and begin to plan my overtake from that lower speed. Far better, I would suggest, would have been for the van to indicate right, and move out in good time, which would have given the cyclist far more space, and me an earlier sight of the bike and a lot more distance in which to plan my overtake. The van driver (that's a professional/vocational driver too by the way, someone who should be BETTER at it than the general populace, by rights) wasn't delayed one little bit, but the knock on effect cost me, and those behind me, between five and ten seconds, FFS
While I'm 'going off on one' (and this is all I will say on the matter, no further correspondence will be entered into) I too have seen many instances of "poor cycling". This, though, in and of itself, does not mean that the cyclists in question were 'untrained', uneducated' or 'incompetent'. It simply means that, much like many, many car drivers, they demonstrate poor judgement and a lack of patience from time to time. Like the lazy idiot in Portsmouth on Saturday who turned and rode directly at me on a one way street, and swore at me when I pointed out his folly. But he's no different to the BMW driver I encountered at Frimley Park Hospital who, when challenged about driving the wrong way around the (one way) drop off zone replied (sarcastically) with "It's OK. I'm only going one way". Then there are the cyclists who hop onto and off of footways to get around delays. Surely that's something only cyclists do? Errr, no, actually. I've witnessed several cars do this recently to avoid delays of mere seconds behind cars waiting to turn right. And cars parking fully on footways, obstructing them completely. I've never seen a bike do that. What about red lights? Surely only cyclists ignore them? Nope. I've seen many, many of your "educated, trained and competent" drivers doing that too.
We've had it repeated over and over again on this Pedal Powered forum, and over in General Gassing too - "Idiots are idiots. It makes not a jot of difference what they are riding or driving". But too many ABSOLUTE F**KING RETARDS still like to draw 'battle lines' between "drivers" and "cyclists" as if they are two distinct species. Now, be a good chap, and either stop with the deliberately argumentative generalisations, and enter into an informed debate on the subject, or, if you cannot manage that, just run along and play with the rest of the dullards...
Haha!
Yellow jack nailed it.
Idiots are idiots, if they're sitting on a bike or in a car. Bit there's more motorists than cyclists, so, naturally, the cyclists find themselves outnumbered and on the defensive.
I do think chucking learner drivers out on a bike on the roads would help. Everyone should know how vulnerable you feel on a bike. Could change attitudes.
Yellow jack nailed it.
Idiots are idiots, if they're sitting on a bike or in a car. Bit there's more motorists than cyclists, so, naturally, the cyclists find themselves outnumbered and on the defensive.
I do think chucking learner drivers out on a bike on the roads would help. Everyone should know how vulnerable you feel on a bike. Could change attitudes.
It does make me laugh sometimes.
This morning, two drivers in Luton vans were having a pop at each other. Trying to race away from lights, swerving into and out of lanes (one of them nearly side-swiped me), deliberately getting in front of each other and then braking to try and cause a crash, and then eventually both going through a red light - the second one by a good 2 seconds.
Why do I mention this? because there was a police car sat behind them at all times. And not once did he flash them, put on his siren or lights on or make any attempt to stop them doing what they were doing. And they were so self-absorbed in trying to f
k each otehr up, they obviously hadn't checked behind them.
Yet two days before, about 200 yards away, the police were sat in wait to target cyclists as a road has temporary roadworks on it and is currently one way.
This morning, two drivers in Luton vans were having a pop at each other. Trying to race away from lights, swerving into and out of lanes (one of them nearly side-swiped me), deliberately getting in front of each other and then braking to try and cause a crash, and then eventually both going through a red light - the second one by a good 2 seconds.
Why do I mention this? because there was a police car sat behind them at all times. And not once did he flash them, put on his siren or lights on or make any attempt to stop them doing what they were doing. And they were so self-absorbed in trying to f
k each otehr up, they obviously hadn't checked behind them.Yet two days before, about 200 yards away, the police were sat in wait to target cyclists as a road has temporary roadworks on it and is currently one way.
tts everywhere, cycling back from ASDA in the cycle lane which ended on the approach to the roundabout, plenty room at this point for two cars as the lanes are marked for two lanes.
Woman who overtook just at the end of the cycle lane pulls straight over to the left blocking me and stops.
Then the cow drives on and takes the 2nd exit. Wouldn't it have been nice not to pull over, and let me carry on and make my left turn..............
Having said that, just done the annual jaunt from Aberdeen to South London, up to Felixstowe and back, and didn't see one idiot.
ts everywhere, cycling back from ASDA in the cycle lane which ended on the approach to the roundabout, plenty room at this point for two cars as the lanes are marked for two lanes.Woman who overtook just at the end of the cycle lane pulls straight over to the left blocking me and stops.
Then the cow drives on and takes the 2nd exit. Wouldn't it have been nice not to pull over, and let me carry on and make my left turn..............
Having said that, just done the annual jaunt from Aberdeen to South London, up to Felixstowe and back, and didn't see one idiot.
Kell said:
It does make me laugh sometimes.
This morning, two drivers in Luton vans were having a pop at each other. Trying to race away from lights, swerving into and out of lanes (one of them nearly side-swiped me), deliberately getting in front of each other and then braking to try and cause a crash, and then eventually both going through a red light - the second one by a good 2 seconds.
Why do I mention this? because there was a police car sat behind them at all times. And not once did he flash them, put on his siren or lights on or make any attempt to stop them doing what they were doing. And they were so self-absorbed in trying to fk each otehr up, they obviously hadn't checked behind them.
Yet two days before, about 200 yards away, the police were sat in wait to target cyclists as a road has temporary roadworks on it and is currently one way.
This morning I witnessed about 20 cyclists going through a red light, a couple riding down a one way street and others mounting the pavement at speed to dodge traffic lights and junctions. This morning, two drivers in Luton vans were having a pop at each other. Trying to race away from lights, swerving into and out of lanes (one of them nearly side-swiped me), deliberately getting in front of each other and then braking to try and cause a crash, and then eventually both going through a red light - the second one by a good 2 seconds.
Why do I mention this? because there was a police car sat behind them at all times. And not once did he flash them, put on his siren or lights on or make any attempt to stop them doing what they were doing. And they were so self-absorbed in trying to f
k each otehr up, they obviously hadn't checked behind them.Yet two days before, about 200 yards away, the police were sat in wait to target cyclists as a road has temporary roadworks on it and is currently one way.
Just down the road I witnessed a car get pulled over for going through a light that had just turned to red.
jimbop1 said:
This morning I witnessed about 20 cyclists going through a red light, a couple riding down a one way street and others mounting the pavement at speed to dodge traffic lights and junctions.
Just down the road I witnessed a car get pulled over for going through a light that had just turned to red.
Wow! You poke the nest with a stick, expecting a few dullards to stick their heads out to see what's going on, yet what's this? The queen herself has emerged, on a mission to enlighten us wayward, untrained, incompetent cyclists about how it's only cyclists that ever break the law...Just down the road I witnessed a car get pulled over for going through a light that had just turned to red.
...do us all a favour, jimbop1. Get back inside your glazed dwelling and stop lobbing rocks, eh?
jimbop1 said:
My point is it happens on both sides.
I disagree with that.The examples you cite are NOT the same as cars and lorries doing close passes. They are NOT the same as cars and lorries deliberately aiming their vehicles at bikes and using them to intimidate and bully riders. They are NOT the same as the drivers of those vehicles, when having done something stupid and/or dangerous then getting out of their vehicles looking for a fight, rather than apologising or checking to see if their victim is ok.
The consequences of something going wrong to the cyclists in the examples you cite will more than likely hurt them and their bikes more than any other party, if there is even another party. When drivers screw up, either by "accident" or intentionally, the consequences are likely to hurt their victims more than them.
I don't jump red lights and I rarely go up kerbs, and I don't condone other cyclists doing it. I also attempt to get out of the way on narrow roads if it is a reasonable option. But I won't let anyone bully me off the roads, and I won't let anyone tell me I have no right to be there.
I think it is a very sad state of affairs if we think we can't educate, if we can't try and make someone think again.
I ride defensively, with plenty of awareness of potential hazards and spatial awareness, with the thought that I will not come out well in an altercation with another road user - guess what? no grief and no accidents.
2 abreast isn't illegal but these days its safest to do it on a wide cycle path rather than on a public highway.
2 abreast isn't illegal but these days its safest to do it on a wide cycle path rather than on a public highway.
jimbop1 said:
Kell said:
It does make me laugh sometimes.
This morning, two drivers in Luton vans were having a pop at each other. Trying to race away from lights, swerving into and out of lanes (one of them nearly side-swiped me), deliberately getting in front of each other and then braking to try and cause a crash, and then eventually both going through a red light - the second one by a good 2 seconds.
Why do I mention this? because there was a police car sat behind them at all times. And not once did he flash them, put on his siren or lights on or make any attempt to stop them doing what they were doing. And they were so self-absorbed in trying to fk each otehr up, they obviously hadn't checked behind them.
Yet two days before, about 200 yards away, the police were sat in wait to target cyclists as a road has temporary roadworks on it and is currently one way.
This morning I witnessed about 20 cyclists going through a red light, a couple riding down a one way street and others mounting the pavement at speed to dodge traffic lights and junctions. This morning, two drivers in Luton vans were having a pop at each other. Trying to race away from lights, swerving into and out of lanes (one of them nearly side-swiped me), deliberately getting in front of each other and then braking to try and cause a crash, and then eventually both going through a red light - the second one by a good 2 seconds.
Why do I mention this? because there was a police car sat behind them at all times. And not once did he flash them, put on his siren or lights on or make any attempt to stop them doing what they were doing. And they were so self-absorbed in trying to f
k each otehr up, they obviously hadn't checked behind them.Yet two days before, about 200 yards away, the police were sat in wait to target cyclists as a road has temporary roadworks on it and is currently one way.
Just down the road I witnessed a car get pulled over for going through a light that had just turned to red.
Can we make a pact to ignore jimbop1 from now on? It's quite dull really.
BMWBen said:
jimbop1 said:
Kell said:
It does make me laugh sometimes.
This morning, two drivers in Luton vans were having a pop at each other. Trying to race away from lights, swerving into and out of lanes (one of them nearly side-swiped me), deliberately getting in front of each other and then braking to try and cause a crash, and then eventually both going through a red light - the second one by a good 2 seconds.
Why do I mention this? because there was a police car sat behind them at all times. And not once did he flash them, put on his siren or lights on or make any attempt to stop them doing what they were doing. And they were so self-absorbed in trying to fk each otehr up, they obviously hadn't checked behind them.
Yet two days before, about 200 yards away, the police were sat in wait to target cyclists as a road has temporary roadworks on it and is currently one way.
This morning I witnessed about 20 cyclists going through a red light, a couple riding down a one way street and others mounting the pavement at speed to dodge traffic lights and junctions. This morning, two drivers in Luton vans were having a pop at each other. Trying to race away from lights, swerving into and out of lanes (one of them nearly side-swiped me), deliberately getting in front of each other and then braking to try and cause a crash, and then eventually both going through a red light - the second one by a good 2 seconds.
Why do I mention this? because there was a police car sat behind them at all times. And not once did he flash them, put on his siren or lights on or make any attempt to stop them doing what they were doing. And they were so self-absorbed in trying to f
k each otehr up, they obviously hadn't checked behind them.Yet two days before, about 200 yards away, the police were sat in wait to target cyclists as a road has temporary roadworks on it and is currently one way.
Just down the road I witnessed a car get pulled over for going through a light that had just turned to red.
Can we make a pact to ignore jimbop1 from now on? It's quite dull really.
I reckon he's too fat to ride a bike but really really wants to.
I don't understand what the problem is.
None of my posts have been hatred towards cyclists or putting the blame all on cyclists. I've simply stated that both sides (cyclists and drivers) need to change their attitudes. Cyclists need to understand that they can sometimes be in the wrong. Drivers need to stop driving in a dangerous manner around them.
And Winston.. You're more than welcome to join me for phys anyday. If you can keep up with me, just for one mile, I'll buy you any bike you want
None of my posts have been hatred towards cyclists or putting the blame all on cyclists. I've simply stated that both sides (cyclists and drivers) need to change their attitudes. Cyclists need to understand that they can sometimes be in the wrong. Drivers need to stop driving in a dangerous manner around them.
And Winston.. You're more than welcome to join me for phys anyday. If you can keep up with me, just for one mile, I'll buy you any bike you want
jimbop1 said:
And once again you're making out as though the cyclist can do no wrong. It's needs to be addressed on both sides.
Indeed. But since you never seem to understand or acknowledge that. Why should I bother to? After all your constant bilge you st out of your ugly hate filled existence views cyclists as "the enemy" and people who should not be allowed to do anything without your say so. Since apparently ALL bike riders jump lights, ride on the pavements, weave in and out. (I actually shouted at another rider he was the other week because he went through the red light. Whilst I and a couple others waited like normal people. He ignored me. I hope karma gets him 
) But you continually try and imply that no car driver apparently EVER did anything that could be as bad as those things. I want to see you banned from ALL cycling related threads. It's not censorship. It's that you lack the intelligence of our other posters and are constantly embarrassing yourself. You don't even realise you are doing it. It's like watching someone with learning difficulties play with a loaded gun. It'll never end well.
We even have posters contribute that don't ride bikes. Most of them can form an opinion, and contribute like a grown up. I may not agree with them, but they make a damn site more sense than people like you.
jimbop1 said:
You really must be one of these angry cyclists we come across occasionally.. Riding everywhere with a point to prove.
The only point I want to prove is that I want to be able to go out and ride a bike without feeling like the next incapable inbred like you is going to hit me or somehow treat me like a 5th class citizen. Simply because I like to keep fit and healthy. So yeah someone trying to intimidate makes me angry. I don't tend to label ALL car drivers as
s though. I don't tend to get angry with all tts. Just the ones that deserve it. You'll notice many people (here and in real life) get angry with you. Ever consider why that is? Or is it because everyone else is wrong and only you know the truth?
jimbop1 said:
I don't understand what the problem is.
None of my posts have been hatred towards cyclists or putting the blame all on cyclists. I've simply stated that both sides (cyclists and drivers) need to change their attitudes. Cyclists need to understand that they can sometimes be in the wrong. Drivers need to stop driving in a dangerous manner around them.
And Winston.. You're more than welcome to join me for phys anyday. If you can keep up with me, just for one mile, I'll buy you any bike you want
I can't run more than four paces, it's why I ride so much these days. I've got a proper case of bikers knee...None of my posts have been hatred towards cyclists or putting the blame all on cyclists. I've simply stated that both sides (cyclists and drivers) need to change their attitudes. Cyclists need to understand that they can sometimes be in the wrong. Drivers need to stop driving in a dangerous manner around them.
And Winston.. You're more than welcome to join me for phys anyday. If you can keep up with me, just for one mile, I'll buy you any bike you want
You won't keep up with me on a pushbike I'm sure
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